Orthodox Christianity, False Teachers, Faith, and Reason

[Foxfyre]

Having had, in recent weeks, some interesting, mostly cordial but also a few contentious exchanges over matters of faith:

I have to believe that those who are convinced that others of us are false teachers, false witnesses, false prophets are speaking from sincere conviction.

I have to believe those who are convinced that others of us are headed straight for hell are speaking from sincere conviction.

I have to believe that those who are convinced that some of the rest of us are not 'saved' are speaking from sincere conviction.

I have to believe the fundamentalists and Bible literalists who are convinced that other interpretations are error, heresy, and/or evil are speaking from sincere conviction.

I have to believe the agnostics and non-religious who enjoy joining in religious discussions are sincere in their interest.

And I have to believe the Atheist, non-religionist, non-believer who come to religious threads are also speaking from conviction, at least conviction they want validated.

So. . . .

So are those who cannot put their intellect, reason, and logic aside in matters of belief, conscience, faith, and their understanding of the Scriptures all to be considered infidels? Delusional? Heretics? False prophets? False teachers? False witnesses?

Is there no room for differences of opinion? Different interpretations? Different understandings? To believe something that doesn't jive with our childhood teachings? Must we all believe exactly the same in order to be orthodox or the real deal or to love or worship the one true God?

I am of the school that faith, from whatever tradition, is blessed and used by God. And I also believe our intelligence, our ability to study and understand, to research, to embrace deeper truths, to reason and apply logical conclusions to evidence are also gifts of God that can bless us and will be used for his purposes. We do not have to put logic, common sense, and the evidence before us on the back burner in order to be children of God.

It is that last concept that I would like to discuss - cordially and without rancor please - in this thread.

In the words of the prophet Isaiah, "Come let us reason together."

 

[Foxfyre]

For starters, but by no means intended to dictate the direction this thread will take, let us reason about the text of Genesis 1 and 2.

Both are stories of the Creation, but both are very different and neither embrace modern scientific teachings all that much. The fundamentalist--the every jot and tittle of the Bible is true person--shrugs off the differences and usually won't even discuss the differences and may excoriate those who do. Such a person, however, is no less a child of God and no less capable of being used by God than anybody else. I have no interest in destroying that person's faith.

But are those of us who do not feel compelled to shrug off obvious differences or who take the stories as allegory to teach universal truths so much in error that we cannot be considered children of God? Must we be considered heretics or false teachers?

Is there no room for people to strongly disagree and neither necessarily need to be wrong?

 

[Foxfyre]

Genesis 1:
At some point God created the heavens and the earth. After that:
Day 1 - God created light and separated it from the darkness and called these night and day.
Day 2 - God separated the sky from the waters.
Day 3 - God created dry land separate from the waters and created vegetation.
Day 4 - God created the sun, moon, and stars.
Day 5 - God created the birds and sea creatures.
Day 6 - God created all the other creatures and humans, male and female he created them.
Day 7 - God rested.

Genesis 2:

No mention of days or time frame of any sort, but the order of creation was:
- God created the earth and the heavens but nothing was yet on the Earth.
- God created a man who would later be called Adam.
- God then planted a garden and put the man in charge of it and looked for a helper for him.
- Meanwhile God formed the beasts and the birds and brought them to the man to give them names.
- No suitable helper was found for the man, so God created woman from Adam's rib.

So the first Creation story has God creating the heaven and earth and man appearing after everything else was in place.

The second Creation story has God creating the heaven and earth and man possibly appearing before everything else.

To the serious scholarly theologian there is no conflict as each story was written to make a different point or illustrate a particular truth. To the non-believing scientist, both are a crock because they don't follow our 21st century understanding of the scientific chronology. To the Bible literalist, the differences must be ignored or somehow be manipulated to fit.

So which of these, if any, is wrong?

 

[Chuckt]

Having had, in recent weeks, some interesting, mostly cordial but also a few contentious exchanges over matters of faith:

I have to believe that those who are convinced that others of us are false teachers, false witnesses, false prophets are speaking from sincere conviction.

I have to believe those who are convinced that others of us are headed straight for hell are speaking from sincere conviction.
"

We have a rule in our church to only say what scripture says. It helps everyone get along better.

 

[Foxfyre]

Having had, in recent weeks, some interesting, mostly cordial but also a few contentious exchanges over matters of faith:

I have to believe that those who are convinced that others of us are false teachers, false witnesses, false prophets are speaking from sincere conviction.

I have to believe those who are convinced that others of us are headed straight for hell are speaking from sincere conviction.
"

We have a rule in our church to only say what scripture says. It helps everyone get along better.

We have a rule in our church that it is okay to ask questions, study the origins, anthropology, archaeology, to test the spirits, and look for agreement between believers as the scripture instructs. And we don't expect people to accept without question what they are TOLD that the scripture says though we don't chastise those who read the scriptures diferently than somebody else.

When I teach Bible, my method is to do my best to teach it through the eyes of those who wrote down the words rather than trust our 21st Century culture and understandings to get the meaning right. And I tell my students that I am not the authority on what the Bible says to them, but the Holy Spirit is. The Holy Spirit will lead them into the truth.

 

[Chuckt]

Having had, in recent weeks, some interesting, mostly cordial but also a few contentious exchanges over matters of faith:

I have to believe that those who are convinced that others of us are false teachers, false witnesses, false prophets are speaking from sincere conviction.

I have to believe those who are convinced that others of us are headed straight for hell are speaking from sincere conviction.
"

We have a rule in our church to only say what scripture says. It helps everyone get along better.

We have a rule in our church that it is okay to ask questions, study the origins, anthropology, archaeology, to test the spirits, and look for agreement between believers as the scripture instructs. And we don't expect people to accept without question what they are TOLD that the scripture says though we don't chastise those who read the scriptures diferently than somebody else.

When I teach Bible, my method is to do my best to teach it through the eyes of those who wrote down the words rather than trust our 21st Century culture and understandings to get the meaning right. And I tell my students that I am not the authority on what the Bible says to them, but the Holy Spirit is. The Holy Spirit will lead them into the truth.

If you aren't an authority then what is your responsibility to (1) God and (2) men?

 

[Foxfyre]

My authority? I subscribe to the concept of the priesthood of all believers--we are all called into God's service and, while we will each have different gifts and will be assigned different ministries, we each are given authority and power from God to do whatever we called to do. Sometimes that calling is direct from God and sometimes will be through those he raises up to be pastors and administrators.

My duty to God is to believe and trust him and be open to his bidding and obey it.

My duty to humankind is to believe and trust God and be open to his bidding and obey it.

 

[Chuckt]

Some of my Opinions on Teaching
(C) Chuckt 2013

Some fifteen years ago, I was approached by a manager who wanted to rent a room and set up chairs. His suggestion was that he wanted me to help him set up a church to take people’s money. He wanted someone that could talk to people. I was offended, angered and upset with the question and I said, “no”.

I also went to Bible studies and it angered me that people wouldn’t study the Bible but they would look at me when they shouldn’t because they could study the Bible and share, teach or instruct as good as or better than me. I actually stopped going to Bible studies for a while because it bothered me that people were looking at me instead of God so I decided that my job was to make people refocus and to get them to look at Jesus through His word.

I’ve also been to Bible studies where it was just a social event and people were more concerned about meeting people and making friends than they were concerned about truth. I spent time explaining to people who had no idea what they were talking about in the scriptures to only see them as a dear stuck in the headlights.

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

How many times have I read in the Bible “they did what was right in their own eyes”? I have had friends like that and one of them was a Christian, was living a secret life and writes back that he/she recommitted his/her life to Jesus and he/she almost died because of ungodly actions in his/her life.

I can tell you personally in my own life, I thought I was very smart with the scriptures and thought that I could do things that only some pastors do and a pastor at church said to me, “you’re not pastor”_______" so and so because I thought I could help apostate Christians and ended up getting hurt because often the person who is living in secret sin is often deceiving and being deceived themselves.

I think that it is important that the man in the pulpit should be educated by someone who is trained by someone who is trained because the average person in the pew wouldn’t know if the man in the pulpit was teaching God’s words or his own ideas. There are examples in the book "Exegetical Fallacies" by Carson and my friend who teaches hermeneutics brought this book to my attention.

Do you have a Bible? Did the people who translate it have an education? If I gave you a Hebrew and Greek text, what would it look like if I asked you to translate the Bible? That is why you need a Christian education.

Sin is often referred to as missing the mark. That is a simple definition that will work for this illustration. If you flew a plane from California to Hawaii and were off by one degree, would it matter much? It may not seem like much but if your plane was off by one degree, you wouldn’t see the Island of Hawaii. If a teacher gets you off course, is that where God wants you to be? What about our spiritual destiny? Does it matter how wrong the teacher is if he is sincere? If you thought you were taking aspirin but weren’t, would it matter to your body how sincere you were if the pill was bad for you? My stepmother in law went to the pharmacy, the pharmacy gave her thyroid medication instead of heart medication and she crashed her car because she assumed she was taking the right medicine but the medicine container had someone else’s name on it. It doesn’t matter that she sincerely thought she was taking the right medicine.

Walking In Truth

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
When it says,"walk in it", the truth has a center.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth (parabaino), and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

It means "to go by the side of, to go pass… or overstep" according to the Blue Letter Bible.
Pastor Joe says the construction is:

"Whosoever runs ahead of (not to continue in the bounds of)." And when churches are being emergent, seeker-sensitive or liberal by not calling sin "sin", or hell "hell" or righteousness "righteousness" because they want to be relative or not offend people then they are running ahead of the truth and they aren't in the center of truth so if you don’t care where you will end up then follow them and don’t walk in the center of truth.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus is truth and the Father is truth. Did you notice that they are in one another?
Jesus is also the door and you have to enter in through the door because narrow is His way that leads to life:

Matthew 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:1 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

The people who go their own ways are probably on the periphery because they abide not and walk ahead of the doctrines in the Bible because they never touch the center. It isn't good enough to touch the periphery by climbing up some other way. We have to know Jesus and since Jesus is the door, the path for the door must be very narrow but we have to know Him.

Teaching or preaching often touches on counselling and I was at lunch with a group of people and there was a lady going to college and studying counselling and she was talking about how dangerous counselling is because she could really mess up another person’s life. I also bought books on counselling from a college professor which states that the Catholic Church is going to pay out a billion dollars on counselling because the people you try to help are the ones who most often get hurt and then they return to sue you. I’ve always tried to tell people you need to be licensed in the state that you practice in and complete the required hours and have a degree in counselling to do counselling on message boards and that is often met with “doing right justifies the means” which means they think they know better and are going to do it anyway and throw caution to the wind.
There are spiritual dangers to teaching so I would rather people just read the Bible as many times as they possibly can and let the Holy Spirit talk to them through scriptures before you listen to the wrong teacher or preacher.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

I try to practice discernment. I have to do a lot of reading to do that but the Bible says ‘my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.

James 3:1 ¶ My brethren, be not many masters (teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation (judgment).

The Bible warns us not to be many masters (teachers) because we will receive the greater judgment. Why would that be? Because maybe we can steer someone the wrong way?

The term “be not deceived” shows up about five or six times in the Bible.

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

The Christians we teach belong to God because God says through Paul that “ye are not your own” and “you are bought with a price”. We’re all God’s children so it doesn’t matter how big we are because we’re still children and anyone who dies under a 100 years in the millennium will be called a child (Isaiah 65:20) and children are often characterized as someone who doesn’t want to do what they’re told so when we have to explain to people and then they die of sin, they will be compared as a child.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

People are into the ministry for the benefits. A true Christian will care for the sheep. Someone who is hired does not care for the sheep.

John 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
The Bible talks a lot about false teachers, what they did. I could write about it all night.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Scripture is servant not master.

Scripture is guide not overseer.

Scripture works with common sense and inspiration to infuse the seeker with light and understanding.

 

[Chuckt]

My authority? I subscribe to the concept of the priesthood of all believers--we are all called into God's service and, while we will each have different gifts and will be assigned different ministries, we each are given authority and power from God to do whatever we called to do. Sometimes that calling is direct from God and sometimes will be through those he raises up to be pastors and administrators.

My duty to God is to believe and trust him and be open to his bidding and obey it.

My duty to humankind is to believe and trust God and be open to his bidding and obey it.

Foxfyre,

I read the Bible for three years before I became a Christian. It helped prepare me a lot to get a good start.

I was reading the book:

Biblical Eldership: Restoring the Eldership to Its Rightful Place in Church by Alexander Strauch

The author talks about an equality of elders and how not everyone is meant to be an elder. Not everyone is meant to teach or lead the whole church.

I remember emailing a pastor in Canada and I asked him advice on starting a Bible study. He told me to do it through my church and have a statement of faith because then it is no longer what I say but it is what my church says and it makes it stronger.

John 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

I use to trust my pastors until I took a cue from Jesus. I have a sociological textbook and there is an accurate article that I verified apart from the book that says the average American will lie 200 times a day.

There is a problem with literacy in America. People don't know the Bible. Something is wrong whenever I try to get people to study the Bible, they won't so I study it for them. They refuse to study the Bible on their own.

My mother in law also works for a Biblical College and the ministry students are the worst because they are the ones who plagiarize and she catches them every so often. Some of them even copy the fonts from the 18th century.

I can say that most of the Christian message boards on the world wide web have some sort of problem and can't be trusted. I've tried to clean them up and kick off the false teachers only for them to try to clean me up. Do you know how I catch the false teachers? I open the Bible and compare what they are saying to what the Bible says. I let them talk for as long as they want because that is how they will get into trouble.

Churches are now turning into theotainment centers. They no longer teach the Bible. They teach Biblical principles.

I have to buy Academic Christian Books or old commentaries because theology is changing and I have people lieing to me and I don't believe the older commentaries will lie to me based on some current lie all of the time.

I think that people should be cautious about popularity and popular teachers because people won't study the Bible so what is the attraction towards pastors or evangelists when the illiterate Christian won't study the word? The attraction isn't always the Bible.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


The carnal mind is enmity which means "hatred". There are Christians who are still carnal and there are pastors and theologians who are still at enmity with God. That is why they teach German Higher Criticism which says that we don't know who Jesus is and that the writers of the gospels wrote too late to know who he was so they have to deconstruct the Bible to tell us who Jesus is. That isn't learning. That is a bunch of gobledeygook. They even argue that they aren't at enmity with God based on carnal principles.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

I only listen to the best pastors or best teachers.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Everyone wants to teach but God says "ye need not that any man teach you" to me through 1 John 2:27

I was in the Christian bookstore and the spirit smote me over Hebrews 5:12-14:

Hebrews 5:12 ¶ For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

I have to be mature and teach. If I want honest teaching then I can't trust you, pastor so and so, the lady down the street, etc. I have to look it up, examine, think about it, etc. I have to judge. I have to be proactive and not just reactive.

The Church should have an equality of teachers or elders so I always thought that the Church would always take care of false teachers for me because I was young and some Christians were really really great and were on fire for the Lord. Now it is my turn because those Christians are gone and the church is still listening to the same old lies repackaged over and over again. Some of the Churches don't even have Biblical elders.

If there are any false teachers listening to me, I'll catch you, Lord willing.

Chuck

 

[Chuckt]

Scripture is servant not master.

Scripture is guide not overseer.

Scripture works with common sense and inspiration to infuse the seeker with light and understanding.

There are no scriptures that back you up.

King James Bible
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

There is no such thing as a seeker in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Scripture is not master, simply.

I wish you contented fulfillment on your journey, but I fear you will not witness the joy of the adventure.

 

[Chuckt]

Scripture is not master, simply.

I wish you contented fulfillment on your journey, but you will not see the joy of it.

You contradict yourself because you wrote:

"Scripture works with common sense and inspiration to infuse the seeker with light and understanding."

My understanding from scripture is according to you "light and understanding" that you are wrong. See above message again as to why you are wrong.


http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...se-teachers-faith-and-reason.html#post7930435

 

[JakeStarkey]

There is no contradiction. You are merely cherry picking scriptures, Chuckt, which we all can do if we wish.

Your understanding is your understanding, nothing more nothing less.

 

[Foxfyre]

Not entirely sure what you are trying to say Chuck. I certainly did not set out to be a Bible scholar, a student and then teacher of religious history or a researcher in the development of Christian thought. I didn't expect to be somebody called to share the Gosepl with hundreds. All of that was God's idea. But I am happiest when fully engaged in these activities, and using whatever spiritual gifts I am given at the time. And I am also in awe that God could and would use somebody like me when he calls me. It is an humbling experience as well as gratifying.

But that is not the point I hope to deal with in this thread. For me God simply cannot be contained in only one way to interpret scripture, in only one view of Bible history, and in only one way that he reveals himself to us here on Earth. I know a powerful witness when I hear one; I know great preaching and teaching when I hear it; but how does one judge who is the best teacher? The best preacher? God has called some pretty unlikely characters over the centuries. He determines who is 'best', not me.

 

[PainefulTruth]

In the words of the prophet Isaiah, "Come let us reason together."

I say completely without rancor or a vindictive attitude, those with blind faith will always abandon reason when necessary to maintain their faith. Blind faith, after all, is faith without reason by definition. Too many times, even in my own family, people believe because they want to believe.

Faith, true faith, is the engine that drives us to adhere to the path that reason illuminates.

 

[Chuckt]

Not entirely sure what you are trying to say Chuck. I certainly did not set out to be a Bible scholar, a student and then teacher of religious history or a researcher in the development of Christian thought. I didn't expect to be somebody called to share the Gosepl with hundreds. All of that was God's idea. But I am happiest when fully engaged in these activities, and using whatever spiritual gifts I am given at the time. And I am also in awe that God could and would use somebody like me when he calls me. It is an humbling experience as well as gratifying.

But that is not the point I hope to deal with in this thread. For me God simply cannot be contained in only one way to interpret scripture, in only one view of Bible history, and in only one way that he reveals himself to us here on Earth. I know a powerful witness when I hear one; I know great preaching and teaching when I hear it; but how does one judge who is the best teacher? The best preacher? God has called some pretty unlikely characters over the centuries. He determines who is 'best', not me.

2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

You have to find faithful men.

1 Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

Why do you think it says not to lay hands suddenly on no man? My reason is the same in making real friends. You can't tell in five minutes whether someone should be your friend or not. Sometimes you don't know if people are qualified or not so you don't put people in positions of teaching if they can't teach or aren't qualified.

Who do you think is qualified? I could probably name at least five men who fell from the pulpit. It is kind of funny that Paul can name names and name false teachers but the church can't and we'll know you by your fruit if you agape evil (John 3:19) because those people don't usually come to the light even though they want to be associated with the Church, they could easily be the tares.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

So if you were to obey scripture and can't name names then you can't obey Titus 3:10 or Hebrews 5:14 because you aren't mature.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil so unless they can name names, their Christian life is non-functional in that regard.

Christian maturity as taught by my church is being able to discern good and evil by using your senses.

Until Christians can do that, I sometimes have to walk on without them because I have to put their ministry on the shelf because I have to do God's work God's way.

 

[Chuckt]

In the words of the prophet Isaiah, "Come let us reason together."

I say completely without rancor or a vindictive attitude, those with blind faith will always abandon reason when necessary to maintain their faith. Blind faith, after all, is faith without reason by definition. Too many times, even in my own family, people believe because they want to believe.

Faith, true faith, is the engine that drives us to adhere to the path that reason illuminates.

That isn't a Biblical definition of faith. That is an unchurched answer.

What is Faith?, Part B
What is Faith?, Part B - Broadcasts - Truth For Life

Having a Biblical answer means actually having to read the Bible.

 

[Foxfyre]

But faith predated the Bible. There as no Bible yet written by anybody when Abraham risked all that he had, all that he was, all that he hoped to be to demonstrate his faith and obey YHWH.

 

[PainefulTruth]

That isn't a Biblical definition of faith. That is an unchurched answer.

I humbly and 100% agree. What's your point?

Y'know it's funny, the church and liberals use that same definition of faith, along with the glorification of poverty and the submission of self to God/Gov (except for the ruling elite of course).