Palestine Today

[P F Tinmore]

Ok there were a couple of points. Let me listen again find one by one.
She sounds the most rational among the Palestinian politicians.

Ok, until 3:25 when she says : "Is it that we don't want peace? Is it that peace jeopardizes reality?"

As far as I understand for her peace is recognition of Palestinian suffering, their nationhood and territorial needs for further development. Right?
I basically have no argument with that.

Also when asked about Abbas and terror she refers to the wall and suffering as reality.
This is a correct line of thought imo, but lacking the understanding of the Israeli side, maybe even not lacking but trying to deflect and focus on the "good non violent" but not specifying exactly what, and I'm not sure she's pointing to BDS because aside from a couple of churches, on the ground Bethlehem is very involved economically with Israel.

Now back to the quote, the 1st part is correct on both sides on many layers out of distrust, while also there're people on both sides who simply want to live their lives..."Does the peace jeopardize reality?"
If You put it that way Hamas and PLO are irrelevant once people on the ground have a bigger authority,

Q. Don't You think that the main issue here is the definition of peace...

God question. Could you define what Israel would consider peace?

Ok, just from the top of it,
establishing a reliable relationship with heads of the Arab community on both sides.

Making sure our adversaries understand we have spiritual, intellectual, and physical power based on our natural right to this land,not to be played with, if You want Your people to live a good life. Once You move beyond that practical point, get this out of the way - we can have a REAL PEACEFUL meaningful conversation, and settle things out. Step 1.

I'd sincerely like to see people like her empowered more, seems like You could get through to her.

From what I can tell this is what the Palestinians want.

They want to live in their own homes, farm their own land, pick their own fruit, work in their own shops and factories. Also good public services like clean water and good schools.

Ok, let's go with this before we discuss more of what she said,

so all of that is achievable in their own separate state, of course unconditional opposition to the existence of Israel is an obstacle to that goal. In my view this is an irrational self-defeating vision.

Q.What is a better return politically and economically for the average Palestinian Arab - investment in hostilities or investments in factories, farms water and schools?

Is it wise to invest in things that will be bombed or bulldozed?

 

[rylah]

Ok, until 3:25 when she says : "Is it that we don't want peace? Is it that peace jeopardizes reality?"

As far as I understand for her peace is recognition of Palestinian suffering, their nationhood and territorial needs for further development. Right?
I basically have no argument with that.

Also when asked about Abbas and terror she refers to the wall and suffering as reality.
This is a correct line of thought imo, but lacking the understanding of the Israeli side, maybe even not lacking but trying to deflect and focus on the "good non violent" but not specifying exactly what, and I'm not sure she's pointing to BDS because aside from a couple of churches, on the ground Bethlehem is very involved economically with Israel.

Now back to the quote, the 1st part is correct on both sides on many layers out of distrust, while also there're people on both sides who simply want to live their lives..."Does the peace jeopardize reality?"
If You put it that way Hamas and PLO are irrelevant once people on the ground have a bigger authority,

Q. Don't You think that the main issue here is the definition of peace...

God question. Could you define what Israel would consider peace?

Ok, just from the top of it,
establishing a reliable relationship with heads of the Arab community on both sides.

Making sure our adversaries understand we have spiritual, intellectual, and physical power based on our natural right to this land,not to be played with, if You want Your people to live a good life. Once You move beyond that practical point, get this out of the way - we can have a REAL PEACEFUL meaningful conversation, and settle things out. Step 1.

I'd sincerely like to see people like her empowered more, seems like You could get through to her.

From what I can tell this is what the Palestinians want.

They want to live in their own homes, farm their own land, pick their own fruit, work in their own shops and factories. Also good public services like clean water and good schools.

Ok, let's go with this before we discuss more of what she said,

so all of that is achievable in their own separate state, of course unconditional opposition to the existence of Israel is an obstacle to that goal. In my view this is an irrational self-defeating vision.

Q.What is a better return politically and economically for the average Palestinian Arab - investment in hostilities or investments in factories, farms water and schools?

Is it wise to invest in things that will be bombed or bulldozed?

Of course not, after mutual understanding, separation, the problem can be eliminated with good policing and intel. On both sides.

There won't be bulldozers. But as separate nations both will have to make sure their citizens don't spark a formal war.

Q.Are You trying to get a confrontation here or see if we can agree on something?
Because if we can agree on the mere notion of 2 separate states with Israel being one of them then we can proceed, if not ,it's a mere declaration of war. An this is not what I've heard in her words.

 

[rylah]

God question. Could you define what Israel would consider peace?

Ok, just from the top of it,
establishing a reliable relationship with heads of the Arab community on both sides.

Making sure our adversaries understand we have spiritual, intellectual, and physical power based on our natural right to this land,not to be played with, if You want Your people to live a good life. Once You move beyond that practical point, get this out of the way - we can have a REAL PEACEFUL meaningful conversation, and settle things out. Step 1.

I'd sincerely like to see people like her empowered more, seems like You could get through to her.

From what I can tell this is what the Palestinians want.

They want to live in their own homes, farm their own land, pick their own fruit, work in their own shops and factories. Also good public services like clean water and good schools.

Ok, let's go with this before we discuss more of what she said,

so all of that is achievable in their own separate state, of course unconditional opposition to the existence of Israel is an obstacle to that goal. In my view this is an irrational self-defeating vision.

Q.What is a better return politically and economically for the average Palestinian Arab - investment in hostilities or investments in factories, farms water and schools?

Is it wise to invest in things that will be bombed or bulldozed?

Of course not, after mutual understanding, separation, the problem can be eliminated with good policing and intel. On both sides.

There won't be bulldozers. But as separate nations both will have to make sure their citizens don't spark a formal war.

Q.Are You trying to get a confrontation here or see if we can argue on something?
Because if we can agree on the mere notion of 2 separate states with Israel being one of them then we can proceed, if not ,it's a mere declaration of war. An this is not what I've heard in her words.

With all that - I think we both agree the 2nd option of investment is more viable for the average Palestinian Arab.

Do we agree on that simple notion?

 

[P F Tinmore]

God question. Could you define what Israel would consider peace?

Ok, just from the top of it,
establishing a reliable relationship with heads of the Arab community on both sides.

Making sure our adversaries understand we have spiritual, intellectual, and physical power based on our natural right to this land,not to be played with, if You want Your people to live a good life. Once You move beyond that practical point, get this out of the way - we can have a REAL PEACEFUL meaningful conversation, and settle things out. Step 1.

I'd sincerely like to see people like her empowered more, seems like You could get through to her.

From what I can tell this is what the Palestinians want.

They want to live in their own homes, farm their own land, pick their own fruit, work in their own shops and factories. Also good public services like clean water and good schools.

Ok, let's go with this before we discuss more of what she said,

so all of that is achievable in their own separate state, of course unconditional opposition to the existence of Israel is an obstacle to that goal. In my view this is an irrational self-defeating vision.

Q.What is a better return politically and economically for the average Palestinian Arab - investment in hostilities or investments in factories, farms water and schools?

Is it wise to invest in things that will be bombed or bulldozed?

Of course not, after mutual understanding, separation, the problem can be eliminated with good policing and intel. On both sides.

There won't be bulldozers. But as separate nations both will have to make sure their citizens don't spark a formal war.

Q.Are You trying to get a confrontation here or see if we can agree on something?
Because if we can agree on the mere notion of 2 separate states with Israel being one of them then we can proceed, if not ,it's a mere declaration of war. An this is not what I've heard in her words.

The only path to peace is through justice.

 

[rylah]

Ok, just from the top of it,
establishing a reliable relationship with heads of the Arab community on both sides.

Making sure our adversaries understand we have spiritual, intellectual, and physical power based on our natural right to this land,not to be played with, if You want Your people to live a good life. Once You move beyond that practical point, get this out of the way - we can have a REAL PEACEFUL meaningful conversation, and settle things out. Step 1.

I'd sincerely like to see people like her empowered more, seems like You could get through to her.

From what I can tell this is what the Palestinians want.

They want to live in their own homes, farm their own land, pick their own fruit, work in their own shops and factories. Also good public services like clean water and good schools.

Ok, let's go with this before we discuss more of what she said,

so all of that is achievable in their own separate state, of course unconditional opposition to the existence of Israel is an obstacle to that goal. In my view this is an irrational self-defeating vision.

Q.What is a better return politically and economically for the average Palestinian Arab - investment in hostilities or investments in factories, farms water and schools?

Is it wise to invest in things that will be bombed or bulldozed?

Of course not, after mutual understanding, separation, the problem can be eliminated with good policing and intel. On both sides.

There won't be bulldozers. But as separate nations both will have to make sure their citizens don't spark a formal war.

Q.Are You trying to get a confrontation here or see if we can agree on something?
Because if we can agree on the mere notion of 2 separate states with Israel being one of them then we can proceed, if not ,it's a mere declaration of war. An this is not what I've heard in her words.

The only path to peace is through justice.

Don't both sides deserve justice?
Doesn't it have to be weighed between both sides?

 

[P F Tinmore]

From what I can tell this is what the Palestinians want.

They want to live in their own homes, farm their own land, pick their own fruit, work in their own shops and factories. Also good public services like clean water and good schools.

Ok, let's go with this before we discuss more of what she said,

so all of that is achievable in their own separate state, of course unconditional opposition to the existence of Israel is an obstacle to that goal. In my view this is an irrational self-defeating vision.

Q.What is a better return politically and economically for the average Palestinian Arab - investment in hostilities or investments in factories, farms water and schools?

Is it wise to invest in things that will be bombed or bulldozed?

Of course not, after mutual understanding, separation, the problem can be eliminated with good policing and intel. On both sides.

There won't be bulldozers. But as separate nations both will have to make sure their citizens don't spark a formal war.

Q.Are You trying to get a confrontation here or see if we can agree on something?
Because if we can agree on the mere notion of 2 separate states with Israel being one of them then we can proceed, if not ,it's a mere declaration of war. An this is not what I've heard in her words.

The only path to peace is through justice.

Don't both sides deserve justice?
Doesn't it have to be weighed between both sides?

Israel is the one with the power to deny justice. And they do.

 

[rylah]

Ok, let's go with this before we discuss more of what she said,

so all of that is achievable in their own separate state, of course unconditional opposition to the existence of Israel is an obstacle to that goal. In my view this is an irrational self-defeating vision.

Q.What is a better return politically and economically for the average Palestinian Arab - investment in hostilities or investments in factories, farms water and schools?

Is it wise to invest in things that will be bombed or bulldozed?

Of course not, after mutual understanding, separation, the problem can be eliminated with good policing and intel. On both sides.

There won't be bulldozers. But as separate nations both will have to make sure their citizens don't spark a formal war.

Q.Are You trying to get a confrontation here or see if we can agree on something?
Because if we can agree on the mere notion of 2 separate states with Israel being one of them then we can proceed, if not ,it's a mere declaration of war. An this is not what I've heard in her words.

The only path to peace is through justice.

Don't both sides deserve justice?
Doesn't it have to be weighed between both sides?

Israel is the one with the power to deny justice. And they do.

Power also gives Israel a chance to be just towards those who deserve it.
You haven't yet define "justice".

 

[P F Tinmore]

Is it wise to invest in things that will be bombed or bulldozed?

Of course not, after mutual understanding, separation, the problem can be eliminated with good policing and intel. On both sides.

There won't be bulldozers. But as separate nations both will have to make sure their citizens don't spark a formal war.

Q.Are You trying to get a confrontation here or see if we can agree on something?
Because if we can agree on the mere notion of 2 separate states with Israel being one of them then we can proceed, if not ,it's a mere declaration of war. An this is not what I've heard in her words.

The only path to peace is through justice.

Don't both sides deserve justice?
Doesn't it have to be weighed between both sides?

Israel is the one with the power to deny justice. And they do.

Power also gives Israel a chance to be just towards those who deserve it.
You haven't yet define "justice".

Like living in their own homes or farming their own land, for starters.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Is it wise to invest in things that will be bombed or bulldozed?

Of course not, after mutual understanding, separation, the problem can be eliminated with good policing and intel. On both sides.

There won't be bulldozers. But as separate nations both will have to make sure their citizens don't spark a formal war.

Q.Are You trying to get a confrontation here or see if we can agree on something?
Because if we can agree on the mere notion of 2 separate states with Israel being one of them then we can proceed, if not ,it's a mere declaration of war. An this is not what I've heard in her words.

The only path to peace is through justice.

Don't both sides deserve justice?
Doesn't it have to be weighed between both sides?

Israel is the one with the power to deny justice. And they do.

Power also gives Israel a chance to be just towards those who deserve it.
You haven't yet define "justice".

No doubt you have heard about Ahed Tamimi and Nabi Saleh. What is the problem there?

 

[rylah]

Of course not, after mutual understanding, separation, the problem can be eliminated with good policing and intel. On both sides.

There won't be bulldozers. But as separate nations both will have to make sure their citizens don't spark a formal war.

Q.Are You trying to get a confrontation here or see if we can agree on something?
Because if we can agree on the mere notion of 2 separate states with Israel being one of them then we can proceed, if not ,it's a mere declaration of war. An this is not what I've heard in her words.

The only path to peace is through justice.

Don't both sides deserve justice?
Doesn't it have to be weighed between both sides?

Israel is the one with the power to deny justice. And they do.

Power also gives Israel a chance to be just towards those who deserve it.
You haven't yet define "justice".

Like living in their own homes or farming their own land, for starters.

Ok, if the priority is not to delete Israel but to live beside it, independently, all that is possible in their own separate state.

I think it might happen once the average people on the ground get more sovereignty, money and power from their system.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The only path to peace is through justice.

Don't both sides deserve justice?
Doesn't it have to be weighed between both sides?

Israel is the one with the power to deny justice. And they do.

Power also gives Israel a chance to be just towards those who deserve it.
You haven't yet define "justice".

Like living in their own homes or farming their own land, for starters.

Ok, if the priority is not to delete Israel but to live beside it, independently, all that is possible in their own separate state.

I think it might happen once the average people on the ground get more sovereignty, money and power from their system.

OK, so if someone owned an orange grove in Jaffa and is now a refugee in Gaza, what justice could Israel offer?

 

[rylah]

Of course not, after mutual understanding, separation, the problem can be eliminated with good policing and intel. On both sides.

There won't be bulldozers. But as separate nations both will have to make sure their citizens don't spark a formal war.

Q.Are You trying to get a confrontation here or see if we can agree on something?
Because if we can agree on the mere notion of 2 separate states with Israel being one of them then we can proceed, if not ,it's a mere declaration of war. An this is not what I've heard in her words.

The only path to peace is through justice.

Don't both sides deserve justice?
Doesn't it have to be weighed between both sides?

Israel is the one with the power to deny justice. And they do.

Power also gives Israel a chance to be just towards those who deserve it.
You haven't yet define "justice".

No doubt you have heard about Ahed Tamimi and Nabi Saleh. What is the problem there?

You're deflecting. You know everything my side has to say about the issue. I'm trying to talking about it from a wider perspective.

If You prefer to attack rather than discuss option to agree on something - I have enough on that.
I prefer the crazy notion that we can agree, let's try. Invest in what is more viable.

 

[rylah]

Don't both sides deserve justice?
Doesn't it have to be weighed between both sides?

Israel is the one with the power to deny justice. And they do.

Power also gives Israel a chance to be just towards those who deserve it.
You haven't yet define "justice".

Like living in their own homes or farming their own land, for starters.

Ok, if the priority is not to delete Israel but to live beside it, independently, all that is possible in their own separate state.

I think it might happen once the average people on the ground get more sovereignty, money and power from their system.

OK, so if someone owned an orange grove in Jaffa and is now a refugee in Gaza, what justice could Israel offer?

It has to be weighed against the property lost by Jews in Gaza as well as Jaffa.

Can't slice that thin enough, always to sides.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The only path to peace is through justice.

Don't both sides deserve justice?
Doesn't it have to be weighed between both sides?

Israel is the one with the power to deny justice. And they do.

Power also gives Israel a chance to be just towards those who deserve it.
You haven't yet define "justice".

No doubt you have heard about Ahed Tamimi and Nabi Saleh. What is the problem there?

You're deflecting. You know everything my side has to say about the issue. I'm trying to talking about it from a wider perspective.

If You prefer to attack rather than discuss option to agree on something - I have enough on that.
I prefer the crazy notion that we can agree, let's try. Invest in what is more viable.

How can you resolve a problem without defining it first?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel is the one with the power to deny justice. And they do.

Power also gives Israel a chance to be just towards those who deserve it.
You haven't yet define "justice".

Like living in their own homes or farming their own land, for starters.

Ok, if the priority is not to delete Israel but to live beside it, independently, all that is possible in their own separate state.

I think it might happen once the average people on the ground get more sovereignty, money and power from their system.

OK, so if someone owned an orange grove in Jaffa and is now a refugee in Gaza, what justice could Israel offer?

It has to be weighed against the property lost by Jews in Gaza as well as Jaffa.

Can't slice that thin enough, always to sides.

I have no problem with Jews getting their homes back in Gaza or Hebron.

 

[rylah]

Don't both sides deserve justice?
Doesn't it have to be weighed between both sides?

Israel is the one with the power to deny justice. And they do.

Power also gives Israel a chance to be just towards those who deserve it.
You haven't yet define "justice".

No doubt you have heard about Ahed Tamimi and Nabi Saleh. What is the problem there?

You're deflecting. You know everything my side has to say about the issue. I'm trying to talking about it from a wider perspective.

If You prefer to attack rather than discuss option to agree on something - I have enough on that.
I prefer the crazy notion that we can agree, let's try. Invest in what is more viable.

How can you resolve a problem without defining it first?

I defined the problem from the beginning - definition of "peace". I agree that's it's not defined concretely enough in our conversation.

In regards to that, I think Shusha defined the aspects of national aspirations that apply to people universally.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The only path to peace is through justice.

Don't both sides deserve justice?
Doesn't it have to be weighed between both sides?

Israel is the one with the power to deny justice. And they do.

Power also gives Israel a chance to be just towards those who deserve it.
You haven't yet define "justice".

No doubt you have heard about Ahed Tamimi and Nabi Saleh. What is the problem there?

You're deflecting. You know everything my side has to say about the issue. I'm trying to talking about it from a wider perspective.

If You prefer to attack rather than discuss option to agree on something - I have enough on that.
I prefer the crazy notion that we can agree, let's try. Invest in what is more viable.

No I don't. What is your perspective?

 

[rylah]

Power also gives Israel a chance to be just towards those who deserve it.
You haven't yet define "justice".

Like living in their own homes or farming their own land, for starters.

Ok, if the priority is not to delete Israel but to live beside it, independently, all that is possible in their own separate state.

I think it might happen once the average people on the ground get more sovereignty, money and power from their system.

OK, so if someone owned an orange grove in Jaffa and is now a refugee in Gaza, what justice could Israel offer?

It has to be weighed against the property lost by Jews in Gaza as well as Jaffa.

Can't slice that thin enough, always to sides.

I have no problem with Jews getting their homes back in Gaza or Hebron.

This is a good notion, for that to happen an atmosphere has to be created in Gaza more than in Hebron.
It won't be an exaggeration to say that many Palestinian Arab in Hebron sicerely want Jews to return, many even prefer Israel to PLO or Hamas.

The key again in my opinion is to try to seek for a combination of people who in their nature are capable of having a rational conversation. That's why I wanted to discuss what Vera Baboun said.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Like living in their own homes or farming their own land, for starters.

Ok, if the priority is not to delete Israel but to live beside it, independently, all that is possible in their own separate state.

I think it might happen once the average people on the ground get more sovereignty, money and power from their system.

OK, so if someone owned an orange grove in Jaffa and is now a refugee in Gaza, what justice could Israel offer?

It has to be weighed against the property lost by Jews in Gaza as well as Jaffa.

Can't slice that thin enough, always to sides.

I have no problem with Jews getting their homes back in Gaza or Hebron.

This is a good notion, for that to happen an atmosphere has to be created in Gaza more than in Hebron.
It won't be an exaggeration to say that many Palestinian Arab in Hebron sicerely want Jews to return, many even prefer Israel to PLO or Hamas.

The key again in my opinion is to try to seek for a combination of people who in their nature are capable of having a rational conversation. That's why I wanted to discuss what Vera Baboun said.

It won't be an exaggeration to say that many Palestinian Arab in Hebron sicerely want Jews to return,

Of course I don't mean any Jews from anyplace, but those who specifically lost their homes.

 

[rylah]

Don't both sides deserve justice?
Doesn't it have to be weighed between both sides?

Israel is the one with the power to deny justice. And they do.

Power also gives Israel a chance to be just towards those who deserve it.
You haven't yet define "justice".

No doubt you have heard about Ahed Tamimi and Nabi Saleh. What is the problem there?

You're deflecting. You know everything my side has to say about the issue. I'm trying to talking about it from a wider perspective.

If You prefer to attack rather than discuss option to agree on something - I have enough on that.
I prefer the crazy notion that we can agree, let's try. Invest in what is more viable.

No I don't. What is your perspective?

The Tamimi's are basically a Hebronite Arab Muslim clan. Those who live outside are involved with both Hamas and Fatah and participate in attacks. Those who live in Hebron, as far as I know try as much as possible to distance themselves from politics, and express a closer attitude to our orthodox view in many ways, respectable people in many cases. They take part in special meetings between the sheikhs and local representatives of the Jews in Judea Samaria. This connection was established on a non governmental level.