Zone1 Paul told all women to shut up. Paul was not a nice person.

[Lisa558]

When we let go of the idea Jesus was speaking of Dante's Inferno and when we remember Annas and Caiphas were the Temple authorities in Jesus day. What Jesus said makes sense. Remember, Jesus was teaching the Kingdom of God/Heaven was within everyone's reach in his/her own life in their present day.

Annas and Caiphas were pushing the idea of Temple sacrifices and Temple taxes as the way to God and the forgiveness of sins. Jesus was adamant (and I believe this is also found in early Hebrew scriptures) to turn away from sin, that God desires mercy over sacrifice in the forgiveness of sins. He also taught one should discern the will of God--and follow it. I believe this is also an old Hebrew tradition?

If this is correct, then what we often see in Jesus a man of Hebrew traditions combating the Temple authorities idea in his own time that Temple sacrifice and taxes were the way to God Annas and Caiphas cared more about power and lining their own pockets with money given by those much poorer than they.

Jesus was adamant the way into God's Kingdom in the here and now was not through Temple sacrifice and Temple taxes but by his way, which seems is based on an older Hebrew tradition? Jesus way was sins are forgiven when one turns away from them. Jesus' way was one sees God and enters the kingdom of God in the present is by discerning the will of God and following it.

I suspect it was hundreds of years later when the idea of a hell began to permeate Christianity that people decided that unless a person believes in Christ they go to hell and will never see God. When we remain in Jesus' own time and culture, an entirely different picture emerges. What say you?

I say….I have company coming in 20 minutes and will get back with you this evening!

(Good discussion…)

 

[Zebra]

I say….I have company coming in 20 minutes and will get back with you this evening!

(Good discussion…)

Good!

 

[Woodznutz]

No problem as you are a delightful person with whom to enter into any religious discussions.

Because the behavior of a view Catholic priests have some people broad-brushing all Catholics in a negative way, I very much understand your own concern that too many are using New Testament scripture to negatively broad-brush all Jews. There were times in Saint Paul's life that he was no saint, but we can at least figure out what the issue(s) may have been.

Jesus addresses the Jewish leadership, not the Jewish people in general, although the general population was in general agreement with the Jewish leadership.

 

[zaangalewa]

That I believe at once.

He was not married.
And he says: "Women should shut up!"

This Paul was not a nice person.

Everywhere in the whole world this had been a rule at this time of history. Men took care for the foreign affairs, women took care for the home affairs. Men had the immovable property, women had the moveable property. This had been so since decades of thousands of years. But the Christian cultures in Europe started to change this.

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So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
-----

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[zaangalewa]

He was married to a Maria from Magdalen.

I hope you will not be very sad when you will find out that this is only a myth.

 

[zaangalewa]

... this is one of the many, many reasons why Trinitatarians waited nearly 2000 years to translate the Bible into a modern language ...​

I guess you will not call Latin or Gothic a modern language.

 

[seaofnails]

.
Hello there - zaangalewa - Thanks very much for replying to my post

to answer that great question can we take a look at the facts ?

Jerome thought to have completed a translation of the Old Testament called the Latin Vulgate in 405 AD, but he then continued onward to make changes, edits and revise the Latin Vulgate for years thereafter, so it was not even completed in 405 AD.

Jerome thought it was completed but then found that he needed to make changes and edits to revise the translation. Jerome spent over 20 years working to translate the Old Testament from the Hebrew.

AND The Catholic Church did not translate the New Testament until 1582 -..... this is nearly 2000 years after the N.T. was authored in Ancient Greek.

The Old Latin Language began to die out and become unused and obsolete around 600-750 AD, - The Roman Empire was diminishing and by then very few people could actually read Latin The Latin language began to modernize and completely change and develop in a more of a Spanish / French - Italian modernization - these became the modern languages - as Ancient Latin quickly became a dead ancient language somewhere between 600-75 AD.

So Jerome's translation of the Bible was only useful to the majority of people in Italy for a very, very short time aprox 100 - 250 years and ancient Latin was only spoken and read where the educated people of Rome had dominion and military and political power -

the fall of Rome was completed in 476, when the German chieftain Odoacer deposed the last Roman emperor of the West, Romulus Augustulus.

So Latin was quickly becoming a very, very dead language. The Catholic Church had already waited for almost 500 years after Christ just to translate the Old Testament

and completely refused to translate the N.T until nearly 2000 years after Christ.

this has a very significant effect upon the population especially when the Trinitarian Government Powers are making it illegal and punishable by death and persecution as " ILLEGAL TRATORIOUS CRIMINAL ACTIVITY " to speak, teach, learn and write the Bible into a modern language - or to even discuss any other view outside of the Trinitarian Faith System
being anti - government could be defined as simply as saying the Lords Prayer in English instead of Latin

It was made illegal, criminal, prohibited to read the bible in English unless you were a Government Authorized bishop.

The Church Of England had not broken away from the Catholic Church Of Rome no less that a single generation until the KJV was granted as a -

Permit Bible - { A BIBLE PERMIT } - was given to the public - authorized by the English Government for the public to have, that reflected the Protestant Church Of England, as - A BIBLE PERMIT

the Protestant Church Of England had just broken from their mother Catholic Rome just less than 30 years previously.

not even, 30 years had passed, and here, the English government is literally copying word for word exactly from the Catholic Douay Rheims word for word, identically and exactly, chapter and verse. The JKV translators ONLY were concerned ONLY about changing and altering and fixing the errors of the Catholic Vulgate and Douay Rheims - in how the Protestants felt the Catholic translation was against the Protestant view

- everything else, the KJV copied exactly the same as the Vulgate and Douay Rheims - exactly - word for word exactly, down to the very last dot.

 

[Votto]

That I believe at once.

He was not married.
And he says: "Women should shut up!"

This Paul was not a nice person.

That's nothing

Paul once told a man he was a sinner so he could watch him cry and repent.

What a heel he was.



But just think, before his conversion he would stone people to death.

I think Jesus did him a world of good, what do you think?

 

[Lisa558]

That's nothing

Paul once told a man he was a sinner so he could watch him cry and repent.

What a heel he was.



But just think, before his conversion he would stone people to death.

I think Jesus did him a world of good, what do you think?

I think Paul was a poo-poo head!!

 

[shockedcanadian]

Paul was alright. Brave too.

 

[foggedinn]

Want your ears to burn? Tell a woman to shut up.

 

[Foxfyre]

That I believe at once.

He was not married.
And he says: "Women should shut up!"

This Paul was not a nice person.

That women should be silent thing was explained to me by a theological historian. Back then the men sat at the front of the synagogue or Temple to hear the Rabbi teach. The women were required to be segregated from the men in the synagogue and were at the back behind a lattice or other partition. And sometimes they would should out "What did he say?" which was disruptive to the service. That's was why Paul instructed them to just be quiet and ask their husbands at home.

If it isn't true, it ought to be.

 

[zaangalewa]

.
Hello there - zaangalewa - Thanks very much for replying to my post

Use an " @ " in front of an avatar name then this user gets an information that you answered.

to answer that great question

Which great question?

can we take a look at the facts ?

Jerome thought to have completed a translation of the Old Testament called the Latin Vulgate in 405 AD, but he then continued onward to make changes, edits and revise the Latin Vulgate for years thereafter, so it was not even completed in 405 AD.

So what?

Jerome

Who is "Jerome"? ... Guess you speak about Hieronymus. It existed his and many other Latin translations. It needed centuries before his version was preferred in the 8th and 9th century.

thought it was completed but then found that he needed to make changes and edits to revise the translation. Jerome spent over 20 years working to translate the Old Testament from the Hebrew.

AND The Catholic Church did not translate the New Testament until 1582 -..... this is nearly 2000 years after the N.T. was authored in Ancient Greek.

The New Testamant was and always will be forever written in Greek - this Greek which had been the lingua franka in the Roman empire. Cesar wrote his reports in Latin - but he spoke with his soldiers in Greek for example.

The Old Latin Language began to die out and become unused and obsolete around 600-750 AD,

Latin was for example the preferred language from Charlesmagne (748-814 AD). His Merlin ... ah sorry: Alkuin ... also made Latin translations from textes of the bible. Everywhere in Europe schools were founded - preferred language: Latin. Latin was not only used in the church any longer - it became the lingua franka of all educated people, an administrative language and language for all sciences.

- The Roman Empire was diminishing and by then very few people could actually read Latin The Latin language began to modernize and completely change and develop in a more of a Spanish / French - Italian modernization - these became the modern languages - as Ancient Latin quickly became a dead ancient language somewhere between 600-75 AD.

So Jerome's translation of the Bible was only useful to the majority of people in Italy for a very, very short time aprox 100 - 250 years and ancient Latin was only spoken and read where the educated people of Rome had dominion and military and political power -

the fall of Rome was completed in 476, when the German chieftain Odoacer deposed the last Roman emperor of the West, Romulus Augustulus.

So Latin was quickly becoming a very, very dead language. The Catholic Church had already waited for almost 500 years after Christ just to translate the Old Testament

and completely refused to translate the N.T until nearly 2000 years after Christ.

this has a very significant effect upon the population especially when the Trinitarian Government Powers are making it illegal and punishable by death and persecution as " ILLEGAL TRATORIOUS CRIMINAL ACTIVITY " to speak, teach, learn and write the Bible into a modern language - or to even discuss any other view outside of the Trinitarian Faith System
being anti - government could be defined as simply as saying the Lords Prayer in English instead of Latin

It was made illegal, criminal, prohibited to read the bible in English unless you were a Government Authorized bishop.

The Church Of England had not broken away from the Catholic Church Of Rome no less that a single generation until the KJV was granted as a -

Permit Bible - { A BIBLE PERMIT } - was given to the public - authorized by the English Government for the public to have, that reflected the Protestant Church Of England, as - A BIBLE PERMIT

the Protestant Church Of England had just broken from their mother Catholic Rome just less than 30 years previously.

not even, 30 years had passed, and here, the English government is literally copying word for word exactly from the Catholic Douay Rheims word for word, identically and exactly, chapter and verse. The JKV translators ONLY were concerned ONLY about changing and altering and fixing the errors of the Catholic Vulgate and Douay Rheims - in how the Protestants felt the Catholic translation was against the Protestant view

- everything else, the KJV copied exactly the same as the Vulgate and Douay Rheims - exactly - word for word exactly, down to the very last dot.

I don't have any idea what you try to speak about except the standard prejudice "All Catholics are evil - but I am an angel. Evidence: I am no Catholic!". In the 15th century for example about 75% of all books had been written in Latin.

And by the way: The "Church of England" was made from only one man: Henry VIII. It is a state church on political reasons. Boss of the church of England is the King of England.

And Protestantism was born at the same time when the printing of books with moveable letters had been invented from Johannes Gutenberg so the number of publications exploded also under local conditions. This made it more easy to use not only Latin any longer in theological and scientific publications. Nevertheless for example Newtons "Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica" was still written in Latin in 1687. It was the first time translated into French in 1745-1749 and in 1872 from Latin into German. Before everyone used the Latin version in France and Germany.

 

[Woodznutz]

their translations are such ignorance to the basic concept of reality and basic simple truth.

I HAVE BEEN GIVEN ETENAL SALVATION BY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO SPOKE THROUGH A WOMAN - PREACHING - TEACHING
AND LEADING ME TO GOD.

never, ever trust a trinitarian to teach you about the original message of the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts inspired
by the Spirit Of The Holy.​

Lots of 'doubtful disputations' (useless arguments) about scripture. Jesus summarized the whole thing when he rehearsed the 'two great commandments'.

 

[JohnDB]

Lydia, a merchant of the expensive color purple, was in love with Paul. No doubt about it. Paul's circoughagus had a piece of purple cloth within it...just as a token of her affection for him.

Then there's Phoebe....a Deaconess appointed by Paul himself. Sent to Rome to answer any questions the Romans had about his letter to them.

So to claim Paul was misogynistic is not accurate. Paul wanted order in worship and not chaos. The women were causing disorder. Paul also believed that men should lead as that was their assigned role by God.

And that when a woman leader rose up the woman wasn't doing anything wrong but that the willful poor spiritual condition of the people led by the woman needed to "grow up". Paul was a good spiritual leader despite the number of riots he fostered.

 

[Zebra]

That women should be silent thing was explained to me by a theological historian. Back then the men sat at the front of the synagogue or Temple to hear the Rabbi teach. The women were required to be segregated from the men in the synagogue and were at the back behind a lattice or other partition. And sometimes they would should out "What did he say?" which was disruptive to the service. That's was why Paul instructed them to just be quiet and ask their husbands at home.

If it isn't true, it ought to be.

yes, it ought to be!

 

[Foxfyre]

Jesus addresses the Jewish leadership, not the Jewish people in general, although the general population was in general agreement with the Jewish leadership.

Except when his parents found him, as a teenager, teaching in the synagogue. His closest companions--the twelve apostles--and other disciples (followers) of Jesus at that time were almost all Jews, albeit mostly Hellenized (influenced by Greek culture) Jews who were more open to different concepts than those strictly demanded by the strictly orthodox Pharisees and Sadducees. Those crowds who came to hear him as recorded in the New Testament were almost certainly mostly or all Jewish.

Paul himself was an orthodox Jew determined to stamp out this heresy of a Jesus cult among the Jews to the point of wanting the heretics killed. He would become a devout Christian with a calling to evangelize. But he never completely shed his Jewish heritage as he struggled to balance the dictates of the Law against the salvation offered by the Christ. He would become the number one most influential 'voice' of the Christian New Testament.

 

[luiza]

A warped personality who invented Cult Christianity to suit his own invented dogma .
The most unchristian Christian of a sad bunch of social misfits .

 

[Woodznutz]

Except when his parents found him, as a teenager, teaching in the synagogue. His closest companions--the twelve apostles--and other disciples (followers) of Jesus at that time were almost all Jews, albeit mostly Hellenized (influenced by Greek culture) Jews who were more open to different concepts than those strictly demanded by the strictly orthodox Pharisees and Sadducees. Those crowds who came to hear him as recorded in the New Testament were almost certainly mostly or all Jewish.

Paul himself was an orthodox Jew determined to stamp out this heresy of a Jesus cult among the Jews to the point of wanting the heretics killed. He would become a devout Christian with a calling to evangelize. But he never completely shed his Jewish heritage as he struggled to balance the dictates of the Law against the salvation offered by the Christ. He would become the number one most influential 'voice' of the Christian New Testament.

Actually, Jesus began his public ministry in Galilee where he preached to the descendants of the house of Israel, the so-call lost tribes of the northern kingdom, to whom he was only sent and to whom he sent the disciples.

 

[Foxfyre]

Lots of 'doubtful disputations' (useless arguments) about scripture. Jesus summarized the whole thing when he rehearsed the 'two great commandments'.

There is no difference between Christians making up rules and regs of how to be devout Christians than Pharisaic Jews or their forerunners making up rules and regs of how to be devout Jews. And for those for whom following the "Law" is comforting and of value, I say power to them and respect their beliefs and accommodate them out of courtesy as much as is reasonable.

But like you seem to be saying, I think sometimes we make it so much harder than it has to be.