PolitiFact Sheet: 3 things to know about the 'gun show loophole'

[OKTexas]

[
A private seller is just as legitimate under the current law as a licensed dealer.

Leftists lack a few things; the first is integrity. An understanding of business is yet another thing the typical anti-liberty leftist lacks.

Two terms:

Retail
Private Sale

These are different under the law - very different. If you have a yard sale and sell your lawn mower, you don't have to charge sales tax, not even in the Peoples Republic. Brown tried to change this, but even the California Supreme Court laughed him out of court.

Private sales are not retail.

Now some people tried to game the system, started buying large volumes of goods and selling them from their yards. The state went after them, and they lost in court.

Retail is not private sales.

A private sale is something that an INDIVIDUAL purchased for personal use and resold at a later date. Unreasonable VOLUME is evidence that a sale is RETAIL and not private.

In your leftist bullshit fantasy, a guy has a van full of AR-15's to sell in the parking lot - but that's retail and he goes to federal prison as an unlicensed dealer.

You see, there is no "gun show loophole." There never was, that's just a lie you liberty hating fucks concocted to further your agenda of ending the Bill of Rights.

All there is, is private sellers who can sell one of two guns from their own private collection. All the rest is just hype and demagoguery from you liberty haters.

Both are legal and legitimate under the law. A gun changes hands in both cases. The only real difference is the background check.

Who says a private seller can sell only one gun?
What is the legal limit a private seller is able to sell?
Is there even a clearly defined limit?

this is the ATF regulation page....

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection, you do not need to be licensed.

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Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

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What does it mean to be “engaged in the business of dealing in firearms”? Under federal law, a person engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is a person who “devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.” Under federal law, conducting business “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that “the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection.” Consistent with this approach, federal law explicitly exempts persons “who make occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.”

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What if I only sell firearms at flea markets, gun shows or over the internet?

A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions from a location other than a traditional brick and mortar store. Many licensed gun dealers conduct business at temporary locations such as qualified gun shows or events, and utilize the internet to facilitate firearm transactions. The question under federal law is not where firearm transactions are conducted, but rather is whether — under a totality of the circumstances — the person conducting those transactions is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. The factors listed below apply to that determination regardless of where the firearm transactions occur. The growth of new communications technologies and e-commerce allows sellers of firearms to advertise to an expansive market at minimal cost, and complete sales with minimal effort. While a collector or hobbyist may use the internet and other communication technology to sell a firearm without a license (provided that they comply with all other federal and state laws and regulations), those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a traditional dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick and mortar store.

Your link proves that people who can't pass background checks can buy guns in private sales if the private seller chooses to sell the gun without a background check.

That is the loophole.

No, that's the law.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Liar, it was out of context, I explained that statement later in the paragraph, you didn't include that explanation. Keep talking dude, you just proved exactly how big a fool you are. Illegal gun owners don't give a shit about current laws, are you so stupid to think they would suddenly comply with a new one? And once again you lied, you said times a million or more, not times a million. And no I don't think legal gun owners are making a million private sales to strangers, as I said earlier, most private sales are done between friends and family members and you have yet to prove me wrong.

I answered every point you made.
It was not out of context.

You have yet to prove a million or more private sales by legal gun owners to strangers.

That was just a reasonable guess. What percent is one million out of three hundred million? Does it seem unreasonable to you that that percentage of guns could be in play on the active market?

What's your guess? I thought I was being conservative.

Really I don't think it's reasonable at all, and once again you're trying to move the goal post. We talking about private legal gun owners selling to other than friends or family, a stranger.

I'm not moving anything. I asked your opinion.

These people know they're wrong. They're just in that we-can't-let-liberals-win-this mode that is part of their pathology as rightwingers.

 

[Kosh]

Liar, it was out of context, I explained that statement later in the paragraph, you didn't include that explanation. Keep talking dude, you just proved exactly how big a fool you are. Illegal gun owners don't give a shit about current laws, are you so stupid to think they would suddenly comply with a new one? And once again you lied, you said times a million or more, not times a million. And no I don't think legal gun owners are making a million private sales to strangers, as I said earlier, most private sales are done between friends and family members and you have yet to prove me wrong.

I answered every point you made.
It was not out of context.

You have yet to prove a million or more private sales by legal gun owners to strangers.

That was just a reasonable guess. What percent is one million out of three hundred million? Does it seem unreasonable to you that that percentage of guns could be in play on the active market?

What's your guess? I thought I was being conservative.

Really I don't think it's reasonable at all, and once again you're trying to move the goal post. We talking about private legal gun owners selling to other than friends or family, a stranger.

If the person is a felon, then it's right or wrong for him to be able to purchase a gun.

We have laws against selling alcohol to minors. We don't allow it to be legal in 'private transactions'.

By your logic we should.

So far left drone, explain how it would sop terrorism?

 

[Kosh]

I answered every point you made.
It was not out of context.

You have yet to prove a million or more private sales by legal gun owners to strangers.

That was just a reasonable guess. What percent is one million out of three hundred million? Does it seem unreasonable to you that that percentage of guns could be in play on the active market?

What's your guess? I thought I was being conservative.

Really I don't think it's reasonable at all, and once again you're trying to move the goal post. We talking about private legal gun owners selling to other than friends or family, a stranger.

I'm not moving anything. I asked your opinion.

These people know they're wrong. They're just in that we-can't-let-liberals-win-this mode that is part of their pathology as rightwingers.

No you far left drones are always wrong and if you drones would finally become adults then we could move forward..

 

[Chuz Life]

[
A private seller is just as legitimate under the current law as a licensed dealer.

Leftists lack a few things; the first is integrity. An understanding of business is yet another thing the typical anti-liberty leftist lacks.

Two terms:

Retail
Private Sale

These are different under the law - very different. If you have a yard sale and sell your lawn mower, you don't have to charge sales tax, not even in the Peoples Republic. Brown tried to change this, but even the California Supreme Court laughed him out of court.

Private sales are not retail.

Now some people tried to game the system, started buying large volumes of goods and selling them from their yards. The state went after them, and they lost in court.

Retail is not private sales.

A private sale is something that an INDIVIDUAL purchased for personal use and resold at a later date. Unreasonable VOLUME is evidence that a sale is RETAIL and not private.

In your leftist bullshit fantasy, a guy has a van full of AR-15's to sell in the parking lot - but that's retail and he goes to federal prison as an unlicensed dealer.

You see, there is no "gun show loophole." There never was, that's just a lie you liberty hating fucks concocted to further your agenda of ending the Bill of Rights.

All there is, is private sellers who can sell one of two guns from their own private collection. All the rest is just hype and demagoguery from you liberty haters.

Can a felon buy YOUR AR15 in your state without a background check done by YOU? Assuming you owned such a gun.

No....felons can't buy guns....they know this....if they are caught with a gun they can be arrested.

And that is a fact that makes them all the more dangerous.

Especially a criminal who has done time before and knows what they are facing if re-arrested with a "banned" weapon. The criminals quickly realize they have nothing to lose and their crimes will only escalate after that realization. That puts anyone in the vicinity at higher and higher risk.

If the mindless libtardz get their way. . . . all those in the vicinity around the criminal will then be put even more at risk because they (as law abiding citizens) will be banned from having anything of equal firepower to protect themselves.

 

[2aguy]

Are you saying it's legal to knowingly sell a firearm to a person you know to be a felon? Are you really as stupid as NYC?

About 15 years ago I went to a gun show and met a man in the parking lot and bought a 30 30 rifle and never even went into the display area. That's how it works.

Did he know you to be a felon, if not it has no bearing on this discussion.

Isn't that the problem with such a transaction?

No....because he is selling his own, private property......just like you can sell your computer or laptop to another individual without a background check...how do you know the guy buying your Ipad isn't a pedophile who isn't allowed to have computers?

Do you now want background checks on all computer sales....since cyber bullying, identity theft, theft of national secrets, child porn, and sex trafficking all occur on computers?

No. People want background checks for all gun purchases. If you support background checks in the first place, you certainly don't want loopholes.

Why is the loophole so important to you? Why is it so important to you that felons have a way around the law?

it isn't a way around the law....they already have that with straw buyers for current background checks.......


Universal background checks necessarily lead to gun registration....because not one mass shooting was done with a gun from a private sale....and the mass shooters passed current background checks, and would therefore pass universal background checks in a private sale.....even the Orlando shooter would have passed a universal background check...

The few mass shooters who couldn't pass checks....stole their guns or bought them illegally.....

Making both current background checks and universal background checks pointless....

so if you get universal background checks, mass shootings won't stop, they will stay the same level, and gun crime won't stop....it too will stay the same level...

Then, the next mass shooting will happen and you nuts will be back for universal gun registration...saying that universal background checks can't work without them.......even though it will have nothing to do with what happened at the mass shooting....

just like the 4 current laws the democrats want have nothing to do with mass shootings...since none of them would have stopped any of the mass shootings that have happened....

 

[OKTexas]

That's an absolute lie, knowingly selling a gun to a prohibited person is a felony under current law.

Horse shit......anybody who wants one, gets one!

Are you saying it's legal to knowingly sell a firearm to a person you know to be a felon? Are you really as stupid as NYC?

About 15 years ago I went to a gun show and met a man in the parking lot and bought a 30 30 rifle and never even went into the display area. That's how it works.

Did he know you to be a felon, if not it has no bearing on this discussion.

Isn't that the problem with such a transaction?

No, it's not a problem, except for tyrant wannabes.

 

[Uncensored2008]

[

That was just a reasonable guess. What percent is one million out of three hundred million? Does it seem unreasonable to you that that percentage of guns could be in play on the active market?

What's your guess? I thought I was being conservative.

20 is my guess.

It's more reasonable and just as likely to be accurate as your mindless shit-flinging.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Your link proves that people who can't pass background checks can buy guns in private sales if the private seller chooses to sell the gun without a background check.

That is the loophole.

You realize that if the seller doesn't care about the law, a licensed gun dealer can sell a gun without a background check...and when they are caught the go to jail.

If a felon buys a gun from a private sale and is caught, they go to jail....you just want to arrest the private seller....you know, the widow selling her dead husbands old pistol because she doesn't want it around the house....her...you want to make a felon because she didn't know she had to do a background check...the actual felon who bought the gun...you could not care less about....

So I guess the guy who says 'Hey I didn't know she was 14! should be innocent of a sex crime?

She can't have sex legally......you can sell your own gun legally because it is your property.........

And...back around to the beginning.

You guys really, really want to jam up the guy selling his old pistol don't you....he wants to get rid of it and takes it to a gun show, not realizing he now has to do a universal background check, which may cost more than he is selling the pistol for.....and if he doesn't....then you get excited...you can arrest him...and take all of his guns, and his money, and his home, and his job...and send him to jail........

Because he sold his private property...

When all you have to do is catch the felon who bought the gun.....they are buying it illegally, for an illegal purpose...but you want to focus on the normal person.....because if the seller was selling guns with the intent of making a profit.....and selling to bad guys.....he would be caught with police techniques we already have....

And the key......you want universal background checks, not to catch bad guys, but so you can then call for universal gun registration.....that is all you want....

The buyer pays for the background check. The only downside for the seller is it's not an immediate transaction.

The whole point of this is to close the potential access to guns for that felon before he commits a crime with it.

 

[2aguy]

Are you saying it's legal to knowingly sell a firearm to a person you know to be a felon? Are you really as stupid as NYC?

About 15 years ago I went to a gun show and met a man in the parking lot and bought a 30 30 rifle and never even went into the display area. That's how it works.

Did he know you to be a felon, if not it has no bearing on this discussion.

Isn't that the problem with such a transaction?

No....because he is selling his own, private property......just like you can sell your computer or laptop to another individual without a background check...how do you know the guy buying your Ipad isn't a pedophile who isn't allowed to have computers?

Do you now want background checks on all computer sales....since cyber bullying, identity theft, theft of national secrets, child porn, and sex trafficking all occur on computers?

Dopey argument.
You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

No...it is an accurate point...do you want background checks on all computer sales?

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Horse shit......anybody who wants one, gets one!

Are you saying it's legal to knowingly sell a firearm to a person you know to be a felon? Are you really as stupid as NYC?

About 15 years ago I went to a gun show and met a man in the parking lot and bought a 30 30 rifle and never even went into the display area. That's how it works.

Did he know you to be a felon, if not it has no bearing on this discussion.

Isn't that the problem with such a transaction?

No, it's not a problem, except for tyrant wannabes.

So as long as the seller is in the clear than it's all good?

 

[2aguy]

You realize that if the seller doesn't care about the law, a licensed gun dealer can sell a gun without a background check...and when they are caught the go to jail.

If a felon buys a gun from a private sale and is caught, they go to jail....you just want to arrest the private seller....you know, the widow selling her dead husbands old pistol because she doesn't want it around the house....her...you want to make a felon because she didn't know she had to do a background check...the actual felon who bought the gun...you could not care less about....

So I guess the guy who says 'Hey I didn't know she was 14! should be innocent of a sex crime?

She can't have sex legally......you can sell your own gun legally because it is your property.........

And...back around to the beginning.

You guys really, really want to jam up the guy selling his old pistol don't you....he wants to get rid of it and takes it to a gun show, not realizing he now has to do a universal background check, which may cost more than he is selling the pistol for.....and if he doesn't....then you get excited...you can arrest him...and take all of his guns, and his money, and his home, and his job...and send him to jail........

Because he sold his private property...

When all you have to do is catch the felon who bought the gun.....they are buying it illegally, for an illegal purpose...but you want to focus on the normal person.....because if the seller was selling guns with the intent of making a profit.....and selling to bad guys.....he would be caught with police techniques we already have....

And the key......you want universal background checks, not to catch bad guys, but so you can then call for universal gun registration.....that is all you want....

The buyer pays for the background check. The only downside for the seller is it's not an immediate transaction.

The whole point of this is to close the potential access to guns for that felon before he commits a crime with it.

How does that close the access for the gun...he can already use a straw buyer for the licensed gun dealer...he can use the same guy for the private sale, but he loses out on the better service at the gun store for his straw buyer......

No, the downside is for those people who are poor....who can barely afford the gun they need because they live in a democrat voting district that is a shooting gallery because of democrat policies that put criminals back on the streets, even for gun crimes....

that...and the fact that gun stores are not in every town......I have to travel a long way to get to my gun store...so if I have a private sale, I would have to travel....and that is if the gun store will consent to do the background check on a sale they are not making........in some places the background check is 150-200 dollars.....and if my gun is only worth 200 dollars......that makes it more expensive for everyone........

 

[Hutch Starskey]

About 15 years ago I went to a gun show and met a man in the parking lot and bought a 30 30 rifle and never even went into the display area. That's how it works.

Did he know you to be a felon, if not it has no bearing on this discussion.

Isn't that the problem with such a transaction?

No....because he is selling his own, private property......just like you can sell your computer or laptop to another individual without a background check...how do you know the guy buying your Ipad isn't a pedophile who isn't allowed to have computers?

Do you now want background checks on all computer sales....since cyber bullying, identity theft, theft of national secrets, child porn, and sex trafficking all occur on computers?

Dopey argument.
You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

No...it is an accurate point...do you want background checks on all computer sales?

We aren't talking about computers.
Like I said, stupid point.

 

[2aguy]

Are you saying it's legal to knowingly sell a firearm to a person you know to be a felon? Are you really as stupid as NYC?

About 15 years ago I went to a gun show and met a man in the parking lot and bought a 30 30 rifle and never even went into the display area. That's how it works.

Did he know you to be a felon, if not it has no bearing on this discussion.

Isn't that the problem with such a transaction?

No, it's not a problem, except for tyrant wannabes.

So as long as the seller is in the clear than it's all good?

if the seller is breaking the law he will be caught....he will get snitched out by the criminal when they are caught using the gun.......what is it about that process you guys can't understand....

Please....explain how a straw buyer would be stopped by a universal background check in a private sale.......

 

[OKTexas]

Are you saying it's legal to knowingly sell a firearm to a person you know to be a felon? Are you really as stupid as NYC?

About 15 years ago I went to a gun show and met a man in the parking lot and bought a 30 30 rifle and never even went into the display area. That's how it works.

Did he know you to be a felon, if not it has no bearing on this discussion.

Isn't that the problem with such a transaction?

No....because he is selling his own, private property......just like you can sell your computer or laptop to another individual without a background check...how do you know the guy buying your Ipad isn't a pedophile who isn't allowed to have computers?

Do you now want background checks on all computer sales....since cyber bullying, identity theft, theft of national secrets, child porn, and sex trafficking all occur on computers?

No. People want background checks for all gun purchases. If you support background checks in the first place, you certainly don't want loopholes.

Why is the loophole so important to you? Why is it so important to you that felons have a way around the law?

Tell ya what, when you show me criminals will follow your universal background check, get back to me.

 

[2aguy]

Did he know you to be a felon, if not it has no bearing on this discussion.

Isn't that the problem with such a transaction?

No....because he is selling his own, private property......just like you can sell your computer or laptop to another individual without a background check...how do you know the guy buying your Ipad isn't a pedophile who isn't allowed to have computers?

Do you now want background checks on all computer sales....since cyber bullying, identity theft, theft of national secrets, child porn, and sex trafficking all occur on computers?

Dopey argument.
You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

No...it is an accurate point...do you want background checks on all computer sales?

We aren't talking about computers.
Like I said, stupid point.

Nope...same point and computers are not protected by a Right.....

Do you want all computer sales to have a background check?

 

[OKTexas]

Liar, it was out of context, I explained that statement later in the paragraph, you didn't include that explanation. Keep talking dude, you just proved exactly how big a fool you are. Illegal gun owners don't give a shit about current laws, are you so stupid to think they would suddenly comply with a new one? And once again you lied, you said times a million or more, not times a million. And no I don't think legal gun owners are making a million private sales to strangers, as I said earlier, most private sales are done between friends and family members and you have yet to prove me wrong.

I answered every point you made.
It was not out of context.

You have yet to prove a million or more private sales by legal gun owners to strangers.

That was just a reasonable guess. What percent is one million out of three hundred million? Does it seem unreasonable to you that that percentage of guns could be in play on the active market?

What's your guess? I thought I was being conservative.

Really I don't think it's reasonable at all, and once again you're trying to move the goal post. We talking about private legal gun owners selling to other than friends or family, a stranger.

I'm not moving anything. I asked your opinion.

You missed my edit, I said well under 10K.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

This is for those of you who believe there aren't that many private sales taking place or that most are to friends and family.
I'll just post a few but if you google gun classifieds you'll get pages and pages.


Shooter Swap

BUY SELL TRADE GUNS ONLINE. USED GUNS. TEXAS GUN SHOW | CLASSIFIEDS | AUCTIONS

Free Gun Classifieds - Buy Used Guns

Gun Classifieds | Free Local Used and New Gun Classified Listings. Pistols, Rifles, Shotguns, Ammo, Antique and Collectible Guns, and Gun Accessories. - gunlistings.org

Ad Listings - Idaho Gun Classifieds

Free Gun Classifieds. Buy and Sell Firearms Online.

Guns Classifieds

 

[Hutch Starskey]

I answered every point you made.
It was not out of context.

You have yet to prove a million or more private sales by legal gun owners to strangers.

That was just a reasonable guess. What percent is one million out of three hundred million? Does it seem unreasonable to you that that percentage of guns could be in play on the active market?

What's your guess? I thought I was being conservative.

Really I don't think it's reasonable at all, and once again you're trying to move the goal post. We talking about private legal gun owners selling to other than friends or family, a stranger.

I'm not moving anything. I asked your opinion.

You missed my edit, I said well under 10K.

OK, thank you.

I'm willing to bet that it's way more than that.

 

[OKTexas]

Liar, it was out of context, I explained that statement later in the paragraph, you didn't include that explanation. Keep talking dude, you just proved exactly how big a fool you are. Illegal gun owners don't give a shit about current laws, are you so stupid to think they would suddenly comply with a new one? And once again you lied, you said times a million or more, not times a million. And no I don't think legal gun owners are making a million private sales to strangers, as I said earlier, most private sales are done between friends and family members and you have yet to prove me wrong.

I answered every point you made.
It was not out of context.

You have yet to prove a million or more private sales by legal gun owners to strangers.

That was just a reasonable guess. What percent is one million out of three hundred million? Does it seem unreasonable to you that that percentage of guns could be in play on the active market?

What's your guess? I thought I was being conservative.

Really I don't think it's reasonable at all, and once again you're trying to move the goal post. We talking about private legal gun owners selling to other than friends or family, a stranger.

If the person is a felon, then it's right or wrong for him to be able to purchase a gun.

We have laws against selling alcohol to minors. We don't allow it to be legal in 'private transactions'.

By your logic we should.

If a felon is trying to obtain a firearm he's already breaking the law. Just like the minor is when they try to buy alcohol. It requires a license to sell alcohol, private transactions aren't legal in the first place.

“More recent prisoner surveys suggest that stolen guns account for only a small percentage of guns used by convicted criminals. … According to a 1997 survey of inmates, approximately 70 percent of the guns used or possessed by criminals at the time of their arrest came from family or friends, drug dealers, street purchases, or the underground market.”

CDC Releases Study on Gun Violence: Defensive gun use common, mass shootings not

Like I said earlier, your BS is a solution in search of a problem. You get the criminals to comply they we'll talk.