PolitiFact Sheet: 3 things to know about the 'gun show loophole'

[2aguy]

[
A private seller is just as legitimate under the current law as a licensed dealer.

Leftists lack a few things; the first is integrity. An understanding of business is yet another thing the typical anti-liberty leftist lacks.

Two terms:

Retail
Private Sale

These are different under the law - very different. If you have a yard sale and sell your lawn mower, you don't have to charge sales tax, not even in the Peoples Republic. Brown tried to change this, but even the California Supreme Court laughed him out of court.

Private sales are not retail.

Now some people tried to game the system, started buying large volumes of goods and selling them from their yards. The state went after them, and they lost in court.

Retail is not private sales.

A private sale is something that an INDIVIDUAL purchased for personal use and resold at a later date. Unreasonable VOLUME is evidence that a sale is RETAIL and not private.

In your leftist bullshit fantasy, a guy has a van full of AR-15's to sell in the parking lot - but that's retail and he goes to federal prison as an unlicensed dealer.

You see, there is no "gun show loophole." There never was, that's just a lie you liberty hating fucks concocted to further your agenda of ending the Bill of Rights.

All there is, is private sellers who can sell one of two guns from their own private collection. All the rest is just hype and demagoguery from you liberty haters.

Both are legal and legitimate under the law. A gun changes hands in both cases. The only real difference is the background check.

Who says a private seller can sell only one gun?
What is the legal limit a private seller is able to sell?
Is there even a clearly defined limit?

this is the ATF regulation page....

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection, you do not need to be licensed.

-----------

Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

---------

What does it mean to be “engaged in the business of dealing in firearms”? Under federal law, a person engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is a person who “devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.” Under federal law, conducting business “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that “the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection.” Consistent with this approach, federal law explicitly exempts persons “who make occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.”

--------

What if I only sell firearms at flea markets, gun shows or over the internet?

A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions from a location other than a traditional brick and mortar store. Many licensed gun dealers conduct business at temporary locations such as qualified gun shows or events, and utilize the internet to facilitate firearm transactions. The question under federal law is not where firearm transactions are conducted, but rather is whether — under a totality of the circumstances — the person conducting those transactions is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. The factors listed below apply to that determination regardless of where the firearm transactions occur. The growth of new communications technologies and e-commerce allows sellers of firearms to advertise to an expansive market at minimal cost, and complete sales with minimal effort. While a collector or hobbyist may use the internet and other communication technology to sell a firearm without a license (provided that they comply with all other federal and state laws and regulations), those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a traditional dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick and mortar store.

Your link proves that people who can't pass background checks can buy guns in private sales if the private seller chooses to sell the gun without a background check.

That is the loophole.

You realize that if the seller doesn't care about the law, a licensed gun dealer can sell a gun without a background check...and when they are caught the go to jail.

If a felon buys a gun from a private sale and is caught, they go to jail....you just want to arrest the private seller....you know, the widow selling her dead husbands old pistol because she doesn't want it around the house....her...you want to make a felon because she didn't know she had to do a background check...the actual felon who bought the gun...you could not care less about....

 

[Hutch Starskey]

You can't enforce a law that doesn't exist. I can legally sell a gun to a felon because I can legally sell it without having him go through a background check..

That's an absolute lie, knowingly selling a gun to a prohibited person is a felony under current law.

Horse shit......anybody who wants one, gets one!

Are you saying it's legal to knowingly sell a firearm to a person you know to be a felon? Are you really as stupid as NYC?

About 15 years ago I went to a gun show and met a man in the parking lot and bought a 30 30 rifle and never even went into the display area. That's how it works.

Did he know you to be a felon, if not it has no bearing on this discussion.

Isn't that the problem with such a transaction?

 

[NYcarbineer]

[
A private seller is just as legitimate under the current law as a licensed dealer.

Leftists lack a few things; the first is integrity. An understanding of business is yet another thing the typical anti-liberty leftist lacks.

Two terms:

Retail
Private Sale

These are different under the law - very different. If you have a yard sale and sell your lawn mower, you don't have to charge sales tax, not even in the Peoples Republic. Brown tried to change this, but even the California Supreme Court laughed him out of court.

Private sales are not retail.

Now some people tried to game the system, started buying large volumes of goods and selling them from their yards. The state went after them, and they lost in court.

Retail is not private sales.

A private sale is something that an INDIVIDUAL purchased for personal use and resold at a later date. Unreasonable VOLUME is evidence that a sale is RETAIL and not private.

In your leftist bullshit fantasy, a guy has a van full of AR-15's to sell in the parking lot - but that's retail and he goes to federal prison as an unlicensed dealer.

You see, there is no "gun show loophole." There never was, that's just a lie you liberty hating fucks concocted to further your agenda of ending the Bill of Rights.

All there is, is private sellers who can sell one of two guns from their own private collection. All the rest is just hype and demagoguery from you liberty haters.

Both are legal and legitimate under the law. A gun changes hands in both cases. The only real difference is the background check.

Who says a private seller can sell only one gun?
What is the legal limit a private seller is able to sell?
Is there even a clearly defined limit?

this is the ATF regulation page....

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection, you do not need to be licensed.

-----------

Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

---------

What does it mean to be “engaged in the business of dealing in firearms”? Under federal law, a person engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is a person who “devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.” Under federal law, conducting business “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that “the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection.” Consistent with this approach, federal law explicitly exempts persons “who make occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.”

--------

What if I only sell firearms at flea markets, gun shows or over the internet?

A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions from a location other than a traditional brick and mortar store. Many licensed gun dealers conduct business at temporary locations such as qualified gun shows or events, and utilize the internet to facilitate firearm transactions. The question under federal law is not where firearm transactions are conducted, but rather is whether — under a totality of the circumstances — the person conducting those transactions is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. The factors listed below apply to that determination regardless of where the firearm transactions occur. The growth of new communications technologies and e-commerce allows sellers of firearms to advertise to an expansive market at minimal cost, and complete sales with minimal effort. While a collector or hobbyist may use the internet and other communication technology to sell a firearm without a license (provided that they comply with all other federal and state laws and regulations), those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a traditional dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick and mortar store.

Your link proves that people who can't pass background checks can buy guns in private sales if the private seller chooses to sell the gun without a background check.

That is the loophole.

You realize that if the seller doesn't care about the law, a licensed gun dealer can sell a gun without a background check...and when they are caught the go to jail.

If a felon buys a gun from a private sale and is caught, they go to jail....you just want to arrest the private seller....you know, the widow selling her dead husbands old pistol because she doesn't want it around the house....her...you want to make a felon because she didn't know she had to do a background check...the actual felon who bought the gun...you could not care less about....

So I guess the guy who says 'Hey I didn't know she was 14! should be innocent of a sex crime?

 

[Hutch Starskey]

There in lies the problem. Take you position times a million or more private sellers and the country is awash in shady gun sales. Some guns no doubt being sold over and over passing to increasingly shadier hands.


You could inadvertently sell to a felon who may not have the best intentions without the benefit of a background check. In which case it is not a crime. It's only a crime if you knowingly do it. Who does your cousin Joe sell it to and so on and so on?

Fuck off an die asshole! Your quoting me out of context proves exactly how intellectually dishonest you regressives are. How about you prove your claim that there are millions of stranger hand to hand private sales, done by legal gun owners.

It was in context. You just don't like the sting.
I didn't say millions. I said times a million.
You don't believe there are at least 1 million private gun sales a year in a country of 300+ million guns? Who says a private gun sale has to be between legal owners? There's no way to know who is buying and who is selling without background checks.

Yes there is.....if the buyer commits a crime with the gun he is arrested.

If the buyer is a felon and he is caught with the gun he is arrested.


The system falls apart when the two guys above aren't put in jail for a long time.....

And we can already arrest both guys with the laws we already have and we don't have to charge normal people extra money to do it.....

You don't even make sense anymore.

Yes...the truth, facts and reality do not make sense to you...you are a lefty, anti gun loon...who hates normal people who own and carry guns.....

Your arguments are circular. They always end up with the felon in jail while missing the point of how he obtained the gun he went to jail for.

 

[2aguy]

Leftists lack a few things; the first is integrity. An understanding of business is yet another thing the typical anti-liberty leftist lacks.

Two terms:

Retail
Private Sale

These are different under the law - very different. If you have a yard sale and sell your lawn mower, you don't have to charge sales tax, not even in the Peoples Republic. Brown tried to change this, but even the California Supreme Court laughed him out of court.

Private sales are not retail.

Now some people tried to game the system, started buying large volumes of goods and selling them from their yards. The state went after them, and they lost in court.

Retail is not private sales.

A private sale is something that an INDIVIDUAL purchased for personal use and resold at a later date. Unreasonable VOLUME is evidence that a sale is RETAIL and not private.

In your leftist bullshit fantasy, a guy has a van full of AR-15's to sell in the parking lot - but that's retail and he goes to federal prison as an unlicensed dealer.

You see, there is no "gun show loophole." There never was, that's just a lie you liberty hating fucks concocted to further your agenda of ending the Bill of Rights.

All there is, is private sellers who can sell one of two guns from their own private collection. All the rest is just hype and demagoguery from you liberty haters.

Both are legal and legitimate under the law. A gun changes hands in both cases. The only real difference is the background check.

Who says a private seller can sell only one gun?
What is the legal limit a private seller is able to sell?
Is there even a clearly defined limit?

this is the ATF regulation page....

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection, you do not need to be licensed.

-----------

Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

---------

What does it mean to be “engaged in the business of dealing in firearms”? Under federal law, a person engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is a person who “devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.” Under federal law, conducting business “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that “the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection.” Consistent with this approach, federal law explicitly exempts persons “who make occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.”

--------

What if I only sell firearms at flea markets, gun shows or over the internet?

A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions from a location other than a traditional brick and mortar store. Many licensed gun dealers conduct business at temporary locations such as qualified gun shows or events, and utilize the internet to facilitate firearm transactions. The question under federal law is not where firearm transactions are conducted, but rather is whether — under a totality of the circumstances — the person conducting those transactions is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. The factors listed below apply to that determination regardless of where the firearm transactions occur. The growth of new communications technologies and e-commerce allows sellers of firearms to advertise to an expansive market at minimal cost, and complete sales with minimal effort. While a collector or hobbyist may use the internet and other communication technology to sell a firearm without a license (provided that they comply with all other federal and state laws and regulations), those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a traditional dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick and mortar store.

Your link proves that people who can't pass background checks can buy guns in private sales if the private seller chooses to sell the gun without a background check.

That is the loophole.

You realize that if the seller doesn't care about the law, a licensed gun dealer can sell a gun without a background check...and when they are caught the go to jail.

If a felon buys a gun from a private sale and is caught, they go to jail....you just want to arrest the private seller....you know, the widow selling her dead husbands old pistol because she doesn't want it around the house....her...you want to make a felon because she didn't know she had to do a background check...the actual felon who bought the gun...you could not care less about....

So I guess the guy who says 'Hey I didn't know she was 14! should be innocent of a sex crime?

She can't have sex legally......you can sell your own gun legally because it is your property.........

 

[Uncensored2008]

[Q

So I guess the guy who says 'Hey I didn't know she was 14! should be innocent of a sex crime?

If he is also 14, it shouldn't be a crime.

You liberty hating leftists lack any sense at all.

 

[2aguy]

Fuck off an die asshole! Your quoting me out of context proves exactly how intellectually dishonest you regressives are. How about you prove your claim that there are millions of stranger hand to hand private sales, done by legal gun owners.

It was in context. You just don't like the sting.
I didn't say millions. I said times a million.
You don't believe there are at least 1 million private gun sales a year in a country of 300+ million guns? Who says a private gun sale has to be between legal owners? There's no way to know who is buying and who is selling without background checks.

Yes there is.....if the buyer commits a crime with the gun he is arrested.

If the buyer is a felon and he is caught with the gun he is arrested.


The system falls apart when the two guys above aren't put in jail for a long time.....

And we can already arrest both guys with the laws we already have and we don't have to charge normal people extra money to do it.....

You don't even make sense anymore.

Yes...the truth, facts and reality do not make sense to you...you are a lefty, anti gun loon...who hates normal people who own and carry guns.....

Your arguments are circular. They always end up with the felon in jail while missing the point of how he obtained the gun he went to jail for.

It doesn't matter how he got the gun...that is the whole point.......

You have failed to show how a universal background check stops the criminal if he uses a straw buyer to buy a gun from an individual....the same way they buy guns from licensed gun dealers....

What a universal background check does...is give you the next step for gun registration......that is all you guys want universal background checks for.

 

[miketx]

PolitiFact Sheet: 3 things to know about the 'gun show loophole'


Calling it 'gun show' is imprecise because the gaping loophole in the federal law is much bigger than gun show...

Call it the gun-show-flea-market-parking-lot-craigs-list-garage-sale-internet-trailer-park loophole.

Professors at Northeastern and Harvard universities conducted a gun survey in 2015 that isn’t yet published. The national survey of 4,000 non-institutionalized adults found that 22 percent of the people who purchased guns -- at gun shows, stores or elsewhere -- underwent no background check, said Matthew Miller, professor of Health Sciences and Epidemiology at Northeastern University and co-director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center.

When researchers excluded purchases between family and friends, that number dropped to 15 percent, which equates to approximately 5 million gun owners whose most recent purchase did not involve a background check.

5 Million gun purchases/trades/sales - with no background check.

How many where domestic abusers, dishonorable discharges, mentally ill, no fly lists?

Hell, how many are just suicidal. That ugly secret of gun deaths, the majority are suicides. And the pro-life party is okay with suicidal people owning guns.

Not in Illinois thankfully. You don't even need to adjudicated at mentally ill. If you are admitted to hospital program voluntarily, you lose your state gun permit for 5 years.

That's what I call sensible.

What a liar. There is no such thing. Any legally purchased gun goes through a background check, except for certain people like myself who are not required to go through it.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Both are legal and legitimate under the law. A gun changes hands in both cases. The only real difference is the background check.

Who says a private seller can sell only one gun?
What is the legal limit a private seller is able to sell?
Is there even a clearly defined limit?

this is the ATF regulation page....

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection, you do not need to be licensed.

-----------

Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

---------

What does it mean to be “engaged in the business of dealing in firearms”? Under federal law, a person engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is a person who “devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.” Under federal law, conducting business “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that “the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection.” Consistent with this approach, federal law explicitly exempts persons “who make occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.”

--------

What if I only sell firearms at flea markets, gun shows or over the internet?

A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions from a location other than a traditional brick and mortar store. Many licensed gun dealers conduct business at temporary locations such as qualified gun shows or events, and utilize the internet to facilitate firearm transactions. The question under federal law is not where firearm transactions are conducted, but rather is whether — under a totality of the circumstances — the person conducting those transactions is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. The factors listed below apply to that determination regardless of where the firearm transactions occur. The growth of new communications technologies and e-commerce allows sellers of firearms to advertise to an expansive market at minimal cost, and complete sales with minimal effort. While a collector or hobbyist may use the internet and other communication technology to sell a firearm without a license (provided that they comply with all other federal and state laws and regulations), those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a traditional dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick and mortar store.

Your link proves that people who can't pass background checks can buy guns in private sales if the private seller chooses to sell the gun without a background check.

That is the loophole.

You realize that if the seller doesn't care about the law, a licensed gun dealer can sell a gun without a background check...and when they are caught the go to jail.

If a felon buys a gun from a private sale and is caught, they go to jail....you just want to arrest the private seller....you know, the widow selling her dead husbands old pistol because she doesn't want it around the house....her...you want to make a felon because she didn't know she had to do a background check...the actual felon who bought the gun...you could not care less about....

So I guess the guy who says 'Hey I didn't know she was 14! should be innocent of a sex crime?

She can't have sex legally......you can sell your own gun legally because it is your property.........

And...back around to the beginning.

 

[NYcarbineer]

[Q

So I guess the guy who says 'Hey I didn't know she was 14! should be innocent of a sex crime?

If he is also 14, it shouldn't be a crime.

You liberty hating leftists lack any sense at all.

It probably isn't. Nice dodge.

 

[2aguy]

That's an absolute lie, knowingly selling a gun to a prohibited person is a felony under current law.

Horse shit......anybody who wants one, gets one!

Are you saying it's legal to knowingly sell a firearm to a person you know to be a felon? Are you really as stupid as NYC?

About 15 years ago I went to a gun show and met a man in the parking lot and bought a 30 30 rifle and never even went into the display area. That's how it works.

Did he know you to be a felon, if not it has no bearing on this discussion.

Isn't that the problem with such a transaction?

No....because he is selling his own, private property......just like you can sell your computer or laptop to another individual without a background check...how do you know the guy buying your Ipad isn't a pedophile who isn't allowed to have computers?

Do you now want background checks on all computer sales....since cyber bullying, identity theft, theft of national secrets, child porn, and sex trafficking all occur on computers?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Both are legal and legitimate under the law. A gun changes hands in both cases. The only real difference is the background check.

Who says a private seller can sell only one gun?
What is the legal limit a private seller is able to sell?
Is there even a clearly defined limit?

this is the ATF regulation page....

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection, you do not need to be licensed.

-----------

Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

---------

What does it mean to be “engaged in the business of dealing in firearms”? Under federal law, a person engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is a person who “devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.” Under federal law, conducting business “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that “the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection.” Consistent with this approach, federal law explicitly exempts persons “who make occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.”

--------

What if I only sell firearms at flea markets, gun shows or over the internet?

A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions from a location other than a traditional brick and mortar store. Many licensed gun dealers conduct business at temporary locations such as qualified gun shows or events, and utilize the internet to facilitate firearm transactions. The question under federal law is not where firearm transactions are conducted, but rather is whether — under a totality of the circumstances — the person conducting those transactions is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. The factors listed below apply to that determination regardless of where the firearm transactions occur. The growth of new communications technologies and e-commerce allows sellers of firearms to advertise to an expansive market at minimal cost, and complete sales with minimal effort. While a collector or hobbyist may use the internet and other communication technology to sell a firearm without a license (provided that they comply with all other federal and state laws and regulations), those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a traditional dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick and mortar store.

Your link proves that people who can't pass background checks can buy guns in private sales if the private seller chooses to sell the gun without a background check.

That is the loophole.

You realize that if the seller doesn't care about the law, a licensed gun dealer can sell a gun without a background check...and when they are caught the go to jail.

If a felon buys a gun from a private sale and is caught, they go to jail....you just want to arrest the private seller....you know, the widow selling her dead husbands old pistol because she doesn't want it around the house....her...you want to make a felon because she didn't know she had to do a background check...the actual felon who bought the gun...you could not care less about....

So I guess the guy who says 'Hey I didn't know she was 14! should be innocent of a sex crime?

She can't have sex legally......you can sell your own gun legally because it is your property.........

Not if the loophole was closed, dumbass.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

It was in context. You just don't like the sting.
I didn't say millions. I said times a million.
You don't believe there are at least 1 million private gun sales a year in a country of 300+ million guns? Who says a private gun sale has to be between legal owners? There's no way to know who is buying and who is selling without background checks.

Yes there is.....if the buyer commits a crime with the gun he is arrested.

If the buyer is a felon and he is caught with the gun he is arrested.


The system falls apart when the two guys above aren't put in jail for a long time.....

And we can already arrest both guys with the laws we already have and we don't have to charge normal people extra money to do it.....

You don't even make sense anymore.

Yes...the truth, facts and reality do not make sense to you...you are a lefty, anti gun loon...who hates normal people who own and carry guns.....

Your arguments are circular. They always end up with the felon in jail while missing the point of how he obtained the gun he went to jail for.

It doesn't matter how he got the gun...that is the whole point.......

You have failed to show how a universal background check stops the criminal if he uses a straw buyer to buy a gun from an individual....the same way they buy guns from licensed gun dealers....

What a universal background check does...is give you the next step for gun registration......that is all you guys want universal background checks for.

It doesn't matter how he got the gun...that is the whole point..

It does.
That's the whole point of the discussion.
The point that escapes you and keeps you chasing your tail.

 

[OKTexas]

Fuck off an die asshole! Your quoting me out of context proves exactly how intellectually dishonest you regressives are. How about you prove your claim that there are millions of stranger hand to hand private sales, done by legal gun owners.

It was in context. You just don't like the sting.
I didn't say millions. I said times a million.
You don't believe there are at least 1 million private gun sales a year in a country of 300+ million guns? Who says a private gun sale has to be between legal owners? There's no way to know who is buying and who is selling without background checks.

Liar, it was out of context, I explained that statement later in the paragraph, you didn't include that explanation. Keep talking dude, you just proved exactly how big a fool you are. Illegal gun owners don't give a shit about current laws, are you so stupid to think they would suddenly comply with a new one? And once again you lied, you said times a million or more, not times a million. And no I don't think legal gun owners are making a million private sales to strangers, as I said earlier, most private sales are done between friends and family members and you have yet to prove me wrong.

I answered every point you made.
It was not out of context.

You have yet to prove a million or more private sales by legal gun owners to strangers.

That was just a reasonable guess. What percent is one million out of three hundred million? Does it seem unreasonable to you that that percentage of guns could be in play on the active market?

What's your guess? I thought I was being conservative.

Really I don't think it's reasonable at all, and once again you're trying to move the goal post. We talking about private legal gun owners selling to other than friends or family, a stranger. My guess, well under 10K.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Horse shit......anybody who wants one, gets one!

Are you saying it's legal to knowingly sell a firearm to a person you know to be a felon? Are you really as stupid as NYC?

About 15 years ago I went to a gun show and met a man in the parking lot and bought a 30 30 rifle and never even went into the display area. That's how it works.

Did he know you to be a felon, if not it has no bearing on this discussion.

Isn't that the problem with such a transaction?

No....because he is selling his own, private property......just like you can sell your computer or laptop to another individual without a background check...how do you know the guy buying your Ipad isn't a pedophile who isn't allowed to have computers?

Do you now want background checks on all computer sales....since cyber bullying, identity theft, theft of national secrets, child porn, and sex trafficking all occur on computers?

No. People want background checks for all gun purchases. If you support background checks in the first place, you certainly don't want loopholes.

Why is the loophole so important to you? Why is it so important to you that felons have a way around the law?

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Horse shit......anybody who wants one, gets one!

Are you saying it's legal to knowingly sell a firearm to a person you know to be a felon? Are you really as stupid as NYC?

About 15 years ago I went to a gun show and met a man in the parking lot and bought a 30 30 rifle and never even went into the display area. That's how it works.

Did he know you to be a felon, if not it has no bearing on this discussion.

Isn't that the problem with such a transaction?

No....because he is selling his own, private property......just like you can sell your computer or laptop to another individual without a background check...how do you know the guy buying your Ipad isn't a pedophile who isn't allowed to have computers?

Do you now want background checks on all computer sales....since cyber bullying, identity theft, theft of national secrets, child porn, and sex trafficking all occur on computers?

Dopey argument.
You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

 

[2aguy]

this is the ATF regulation page....

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection, you do not need to be licensed.

-----------

Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

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What does it mean to be “engaged in the business of dealing in firearms”? Under federal law, a person engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is a person who “devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.” Under federal law, conducting business “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that “the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection.” Consistent with this approach, federal law explicitly exempts persons “who make occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.”

--------

What if I only sell firearms at flea markets, gun shows or over the internet?

A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions from a location other than a traditional brick and mortar store. Many licensed gun dealers conduct business at temporary locations such as qualified gun shows or events, and utilize the internet to facilitate firearm transactions. The question under federal law is not where firearm transactions are conducted, but rather is whether — under a totality of the circumstances — the person conducting those transactions is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. The factors listed below apply to that determination regardless of where the firearm transactions occur. The growth of new communications technologies and e-commerce allows sellers of firearms to advertise to an expansive market at minimal cost, and complete sales with minimal effort. While a collector or hobbyist may use the internet and other communication technology to sell a firearm without a license (provided that they comply with all other federal and state laws and regulations), those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a traditional dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick and mortar store.

Your link proves that people who can't pass background checks can buy guns in private sales if the private seller chooses to sell the gun without a background check.

That is the loophole.

You realize that if the seller doesn't care about the law, a licensed gun dealer can sell a gun without a background check...and when they are caught the go to jail.

If a felon buys a gun from a private sale and is caught, they go to jail....you just want to arrest the private seller....you know, the widow selling her dead husbands old pistol because she doesn't want it around the house....her...you want to make a felon because she didn't know she had to do a background check...the actual felon who bought the gun...you could not care less about....

So I guess the guy who says 'Hey I didn't know she was 14! should be innocent of a sex crime?

She can't have sex legally......you can sell your own gun legally because it is your property.........

And...back around to the beginning.

You guys really, really want to jam up the guy selling his old pistol don't you....he wants to get rid of it and takes it to a gun show, not realizing he now has to do a universal background check, which may cost more than he is selling the pistol for.....and if he doesn't....then you get excited...you can arrest him...and take all of his guns, and his money, and his home, and his job...and send him to jail........

Because he sold his private property...

When all you have to do is catch the felon who bought the gun.....they are buying it illegally, for an illegal purpose...but you want to focus on the normal person.....because if the seller was selling guns with the intent of making a profit.....and selling to bad guys.....he would be caught with police techniques we already have....

And the key......you want universal background checks, not to catch bad guys, but so you can then call for universal gun registration.....that is all you want....

 

[Hutch Starskey]

It was in context. You just don't like the sting.
I didn't say millions. I said times a million.
You don't believe there are at least 1 million private gun sales a year in a country of 300+ million guns? Who says a private gun sale has to be between legal owners? There's no way to know who is buying and who is selling without background checks.

Liar, it was out of context, I explained that statement later in the paragraph, you didn't include that explanation. Keep talking dude, you just proved exactly how big a fool you are. Illegal gun owners don't give a shit about current laws, are you so stupid to think they would suddenly comply with a new one? And once again you lied, you said times a million or more, not times a million. And no I don't think legal gun owners are making a million private sales to strangers, as I said earlier, most private sales are done between friends and family members and you have yet to prove me wrong.

I answered every point you made.
It was not out of context.

You have yet to prove a million or more private sales by legal gun owners to strangers.

That was just a reasonable guess. What percent is one million out of three hundred million? Does it seem unreasonable to you that that percentage of guns could be in play on the active market?

What's your guess? I thought I was being conservative.

Really I don't think it's reasonable at all, and once again you're trying to move the goal post. We talking about private legal gun owners selling to other than friends or family, a stranger.

I'm not moving anything. I asked your opinion.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It was in context. You just don't like the sting.
I didn't say millions. I said times a million.
You don't believe there are at least 1 million private gun sales a year in a country of 300+ million guns? Who says a private gun sale has to be between legal owners? There's no way to know who is buying and who is selling without background checks.

Liar, it was out of context, I explained that statement later in the paragraph, you didn't include that explanation. Keep talking dude, you just proved exactly how big a fool you are. Illegal gun owners don't give a shit about current laws, are you so stupid to think they would suddenly comply with a new one? And once again you lied, you said times a million or more, not times a million. And no I don't think legal gun owners are making a million private sales to strangers, as I said earlier, most private sales are done between friends and family members and you have yet to prove me wrong.

I answered every point you made.
It was not out of context.

You have yet to prove a million or more private sales by legal gun owners to strangers.

That was just a reasonable guess. What percent is one million out of three hundred million? Does it seem unreasonable to you that that percentage of guns could be in play on the active market?

What's your guess? I thought I was being conservative.

Really I don't think it's reasonable at all, and once again you're trying to move the goal post. We talking about private legal gun owners selling to other than friends or family, a stranger.

If the person is a felon, then it's right or wrong for him to be able to purchase a gun.

We have laws against selling alcohol to minors. We don't allow it to be legal in 'private transactions'.

By your logic we should.

 

[Kosh]

Are you saying it's legal to knowingly sell a firearm to a person you know to be a felon? Are you really as stupid as NYC?

About 15 years ago I went to a gun show and met a man in the parking lot and bought a 30 30 rifle and never even went into the display area. That's how it works.

Did he know you to be a felon, if not it has no bearing on this discussion.

Isn't that the problem with such a transaction?

No....because he is selling his own, private property......just like you can sell your computer or laptop to another individual without a background check...how do you know the guy buying your Ipad isn't a pedophile who isn't allowed to have computers?

Do you now want background checks on all computer sales....since cyber bullying, identity theft, theft of national secrets, child porn, and sex trafficking all occur on computers?

No. People want background checks for all gun purchases. If you support background checks in the first place, you certainly don't want loopholes.

Why is the loophole so important to you? Why is it so important to you that felons have a way around the law?

What difference does it make?

It is a far left religious narrative that will not stop terrorism..