Practicing religion without force

[syrenn]

Having a temple available to a child...is force. Anyone answering questions within that temple or religion is applying force.

Now, does this apply ONLY to children or does it apply to adults who come seeking information as well?

After my father's death in 2001, I went on an almost two year search for "answers". I walked into at least one church/temple/mosque/synagogue of just about every single organized religious group that I could find in that period of time. I will tell you honestly that I was pretty much emotionally open to anyone who I thought could give me an "answer" to the questions that I was asking. IF any one of them had been able to come up with a reasonable, comprehensive answer they probably would have had a convert for life. Not a single one of them could come up with an "answer" that I felt was suitable. More than a few didn't even bother to try.

I was probably even more "open" than a child would have been walking into those places. Should they have been restrained from attempting to answer MY questions as well?

The OP...and post 3. I am assuming the thread is about religion and forcing a religion onto children. Adults are big enough to decide what force they are willing to be swayed by.

As for adults... i don't care what they want to do or learn. They are big enough to make religious choices on their own..without any type of force applied.

Now answer me this..as an adult seeking answers. Did they or did they not give an opinion based on their beliefs? Were they not "teaching" you in the ways of what ever it was they believed to answer your questions?

ok....so now i am going to be a busybody. What was the question you were asking?

 

[Anachronism]

The OP...and post 3. I am assuming the thread is about religion and forcing a religion onto children. Adults are big enough to decide what force they are willing to be swayed by.

As for adults... i don't care what they want to do or learn. They are big enough to make religious choices on their own..without any type of force applied.

I would agree that the initial focus of the thread was on children, but I think there is a potential to ask those same questions about portions of the adult population as well. It's well known that many religious cults tend to focus attention on adults who are going through stressful or down times in their life because they are exceptionally vulnerable to the same sorts of "teaching" that children are.

Now answer me this..as an adult seeking answers. Did they or did they not give an opinion based on their beliefs? Were they not "teaching" you in the ways of what ever it was they believed to answer your questions?

Yes, their answers were based on whatever their particular dogma and theology was for the most part. They were providing insight into their viewpoint on the issue, which is teaching in a manner of speaking.

ok....so now i am going to be a busybody. What was the question you were asking?

Basically it boiled down to the age old question of.... "Why do bad things happen to good people?" It was slightly more along the lines of.... "Why would/should anyone give their time, energy, Faith, etc... to a religion when that Faith's God isn't willing to reward that Faith with any form of Earthly reward?"

The question was brought on by the 33 months of suffering my father endured between November of 1998 and his passing in August of 2001 from complications of Skin Cancer which had eventually moved into his brain. He was literally the BEST PERSON I've ever known. We didn't always get along real well, but that was mostly because he was a much better Man than I will ever be. He was truly faithful to everyone else in his life beyond himself.... his family, his God, his church, his country, etc.... And at the moment that he and my mom were finally going to start being able to live for themselves instead of everyone else, all of the sudden he contracts skin cancer. After fighting it for almost three years he finally succumbed to it ON HIS FIFTY-FOURTH BIRTHDAY!!!!! Kind of seems like a "Thanks for all your hard work. Now here's a kick in the nuts with a steel-toed boot as a reward for all your efforts." to me.

 

[syrenn]

The OP...and post 3. I am assuming the thread is about religion and forcing a religion onto children. Adults are big enough to decide what force they are willing to be swayed by.

As for adults... i don't care what they want to do or learn. They are big enough to make religious choices on their own..without any type of force applied.

I would agree that the initial focus of the thread was on children, but I think there is a potential to ask those same questions about portions of the adult population as well. It's well known that many religious cults tend to focus attention on adults who are going through stressful or down times in their life because they are exceptionally vulnerable to the same sorts of "teaching" that children are.

Now answer me this..as an adult seeking answers. Did they or did they not give an opinion based on their beliefs? Were they not "teaching" you in the ways of what ever it was they believed to answer your questions?

Yes, their answers were based on whatever their particular dogma and theology was for the most part. They were providing insight into their viewpoint on the issue, which is teaching in a manner of speaking.

ok....so now i am going to be a busybody. What was the question you were asking?

Basically it boiled down to the age old question of.... "Why do bad things happen to good people?" It was slightly more along the lines of.... "Why would/should anyone give their time, energy, Faith, etc... to a religion when that Faith's God isn't willing to reward that Faith with any form of Earthly reward?"

The question was brought on by the 33 months of suffering my father endured between November of 1998 and his passing in August of 2001 from complications of Skin Cancer which had eventually moved into his brain. He was literally the BEST PERSON I've ever known. We didn't always get along real well, but that was mostly because he was a much better Man than I will ever be. He was truly faithful to everyone else in his life beyond himself.... his family, his God, his church, his country, etc.... And at the moment that he and my mom were finally going to start being able to live for themselves instead of everyone else, all of the sudden he contracts skin cancer. After fighting it for almost three years he finally succumbed to it ON HIS FIFTY-FOURTH BIRTHDAY!!!!! Kind of seems like a "Thanks for all your hard work. Now here's a kick in the nuts with a steel-toed boot as a reward for all your efforts." to me.

Simple answer. There is no god. And if there is a god then the rewards are not earthly.

Everyone dies. Our bodies are not made to last. Death is not about the dead, it is about the living left behind and the feelings they have.

 

[Newby]

I went to Catholic school. I was indoctrinated into many concepts that I was not allowed to question. People didn't practice what was preached.

I see my Buddhist friends not teaching their children directly but modeling love, compassion, and equanimity. This is more useful.

It is all still all indoctrination. Whether you accept or reject what you are being shown, coerced, or indoctrinated into, it is still force. Some "force" is more subtle then others. some "force" is more insidious then others.

Teaching in and of itself is force.

I disagree that teaching is in and of itself force. I'm a teacher. Force is not necessary.

Define what 'force' you are referring to then?

 

[Anachronism]

Simple answer. There is no god. And if there is a god then the rewards are not earthly.

Everyone dies. Our bodies are not made to last. Death is not about the dead, it is about the living left behind and the feelings they have. [/COLOR]

I came to a different set of conclusions, but that's probably a topic for a different thread than this one. It's something that reasonable people can disagree on.

 

[signelect]

All religions indoctrinate including mine. It must be wonderful to just wander around feeling good and knowing that no one has forced anything on you. I have nothing against any religion but I do think you have to believe in something. I prefer God but your preference is up to you.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Seems wise to me. What do you think?

Wonderfull theory, but sadly, in practice I know of none that don't have blood on thier hands.

 

[Newby]

The OP...and post 3. I am assuming the thread is about religion and forcing a religion onto children. Adults are big enough to decide what force they are willing to be swayed by.

As for adults... i don't care what they want to do or learn. They are big enough to make religious choices on their own..without any type of force applied.

I would agree that the initial focus of the thread was on children, but I think there is a potential to ask those same questions about portions of the adult population as well. It's well known that many religious cults tend to focus attention on adults who are going through stressful or down times in their life because they are exceptionally vulnerable to the same sorts of "teaching" that children are.

Now answer me this..as an adult seeking answers. Did they or did they not give an opinion based on their beliefs? Were they not "teaching" you in the ways of what ever it was they believed to answer your questions?

Yes, their answers were based on whatever their particular dogma and theology was for the most part. They were providing insight into their viewpoint on the issue, which is teaching in a manner of speaking.

ok....so now i am going to be a busybody. What was the question you were asking?

Basically it boiled down to the age old question of.... "Why do bad things happen to good people?" It was slightly more along the lines of.... "Why would/should anyone give their time, energy, Faith, etc... to a religion when that Faith's God isn't willing to reward that Faith with any form of Earthly reward?"

The question was brought on by the 33 months of suffering my father endured between November of 1998 and his passing in August of 2001 from complications of Skin Cancer which had eventually moved into his brain. He was literally the BEST PERSON I've ever known. We didn't always get along real well, but that was mostly because he was a much better Man than I will ever be. He was truly faithful to everyone else in his life beyond himself.... his family, his God, his church, his country, etc.... And at the moment that he and my mom were finally going to start being able to live for themselves instead of everyone else, all of the sudden he contracts skin cancer. After fighting it for almost three years he finally succumbed to it ON HIS FIFTY-FOURTH BIRTHDAY!!!!! Kind of seems like a "Thanks for all your hard work. Now here's a kick in the nuts with a steel-toed boot as a reward for all your efforts." to me.

I would recommend a book that I read after the brutal murder of my niece, and I recommended it to her mother as well. It tries to answer the question that you are asking, and I thought it was very good. It's not 'light' reading by any stretch of the imagination, and it took a little bit for him to get to the main point, so you have to be patient.

Cries of the Heart by Ravi Zacharias

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UG4IS4/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0849943876&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=02VDDXAVT3PZ7V2016B4]Amazon.com: Cries of The Heart eBook: Ravi Zacharias, Max Lucado: Kindle Store[/ame]

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Seems wise to me. What do you think?

Isn't America great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No one here to force religion on you.

 

[Mini 14]

There's a big difference between taking a child to Church and enrolling them in Jesus Camp. "There are two kinds of people in the world. People who love Jesus and people who don't."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac

I rest my case, Your Honor

 

[Sky Dancer]

Seems wise to me. What do you think?

Isn't America great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No one here to force religion on you.

Not true. Opposing civil marriage equality on religious grounds is forcing religion on American citizens who aren't even interested in marrying in a church.

 

[Sky Dancer]

It is all still all indoctrination. Whether you accept or reject what you are being shown, coerced, or indoctrinated into, it is still force. Some "force" is more subtle then others. some "force" is more insidious then others.

Teaching in and of itself is force.

I disagree that teaching is in and of itself force. I'm a teacher. Force is not necessary.

Define what 'force' you are referring to then?

Force is when you make your kids go to church and attend a religous school. Force is when nuns use corporal punishment on you.

Force is when you aren't able to get medical care from a doctor because your parents think God will cure you.

 

[rikules]

How can you force someone to practice religion? Either they have voluntarily made the decision to follow God, or they haven't. You can't force someone to do that. You can't force people to take care of widow and the fatherless or to keep themselves unspotted from the world.

In fact, it's the very voluntariness of exercising faith that allows the power of God to flow into the lives of the faithful. God won't force his power upon us. It only falls on us through voluntarily exercising faith to keep His commandments.

"How can you force someone to practice religion? Either they have voluntarily made the decision to follow God, or they haven't."


when children are indoctrinated at an early age you are reducing/eliminating their choices as an adult. (at least for MOST people)

MOST people are (catholic, protestant,jewish,islamic...etc..) simply because their parents were and they were indoctrinated at an early age.


it isn't actually FORCE but it is certainly brainwashing and indoctrination....

"give me the child and I'll have the man"

some people break the chains of their early indoctrination but it seems that MOST don't

 

[AllieBaba]

You don't know what the fuck force means, Sky.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Seems wise to me. What do you think?

Isn't America great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No one here to force religion on you.

Not true. Opposing civil marriage equality on religious grounds is forcing religion on American citizens who aren't even interested in marrying in a church.

What are you tring to say? Marriage is not a religion.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Which is good. Others don't feel any need to change.

Force is force, indoctrination is force, teaching is force. If you don't feel that children should be forced into religion they you should also agree that any exposure to religion...is and of itself...force.

No, I do not consider any exposure to religion force. If a child wanders into a temple and asks questions no one is forcing them in anything.

Are you a Catholic, syrenn? I hope I haven't offended you.

No, you have not offended me in the least

Having a temple available to a child...is force. Anyone answering questions within that temple or religion is applying force.

Absolutely not. Answering a child's questions is not force. Not allowing a child to ask questions is force. Making a child attend church when they've shown no interest in it is force.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Isn't America great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No one here to force religion on you.

Not true. Opposing civil marriage equality on religious grounds is forcing religion on American citizens who aren't even interested in marrying in a church.

What are you tring to say? Marriage is not a religion.

Civil marriage is not religious. Why are religious groups pouring money into denying non-religious citizens the right to marry?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I disagree that teaching is in and of itself force. I'm a teacher. Force is not necessary.

Define what 'force' you are referring to then?

Force is when you make your kids go to church and attend a religous school. Force is when nuns use corporal punishment on you.

Force is when you aren't able to get medical care from a doctor because your parents think God will cure you.

Untl a child comes of voting age they have only the rights their parents grant them. They do not have the right to freely move arond as they please. They do not have a right to drink, vote inter into a biding contract drive a car or buy a gun.

 

[AllieBaba]

Sky also thinks that Jehovah's Witnesses are responsible for old people who are brutalized by thugs who come to their door.

Her reasoning is that because JH's often come to the door, the dumb old people assume that everybody is safe, and thus open the door to monsters who would otherwise wait quietly on the other side of the door.

She also believes that Christians should not be allowed in politics. She thinks she is being "forced" when she is on a public street and is subjected to street preaching. Apparently she is unable to escape it.

She believes Christians should not teach children.

So the things that Sky believes are this:

Christians should not be allowed to teach their own children, because sharing their values with them does not constitute teaching, if they are sharing Christianity, it constitutes "forcing religion".

Christians should not be allowed to teach any children, because their beliefs may seep into their world view, and we can't have them contaminating the public's children with their morality and their value system, if it originates in Christianity.

Christians should be excluded from all politics because likewise, they would allow their Christian faith to influence their decisions, and apparently Sky thinks this is a violation of separation of church and state. I guess she thinks the state isn't supposed to have religious thoughts or behave morally, if that morality stems from Christianity.

Jehovahs Witnesses are responsible for the deaths of untold numbers of old people.

Jehovah's Witnesses scare Sky.


This is the fruit loop that is Sky.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Not true. Opposing civil marriage equality on religious grounds is forcing religion on American citizens who aren't even interested in marrying in a church.

What are you tring to say? Marriage is not a religion.

Civil marriage is not religious. Why are religious groups pouring money into denying non-religious citizens the right to marry?

Marriage is a government thing that impose them to get a license, that has been defined as a union between a man and a women. But it is not a religion