pro-myth or anti-science?

[Wuwei]

Your preconceptions demonstrate evidence for my points, I believe, that we need a calmer approach and a respect for each other's beliefs.

I am pro-evolution in the biology classroom, and genesis and creation myths in the humanities classroom, and so argued as a School Board president and member for years.

Oops. In rereading my post I made a typo. I meant to say that creationism should be kept out of science classes and evolution should be taught in science classes. To me, it's the attempt to bring religious concepts into secular institutions such as schools or government that I think is "militant theism".
I will leave a definition of "militant atheism" up to you.

 

[Thunderbird]

Leftists vs.science: Fetal science confronts abortion fanaticism WashingtonExaminer.com

http://www.doctorsonfetalpain.com/

 

[Thunderbird]

If, for example, you think keeping evolution out of science classes is militant atheism, I strongly disagree.

Is evolution kept out of science class in any public school in the U.S.A.?

 

[Thunderbird]

The universe follows mathematical laws which are an inanimate process.

Why should the universe follow such laws? Why should the universe be orderly? Why can the universe be described by equations not a few scientists have called elegant and even beautiful?

I love science, but I don't like materialism/atheism. Materialism is the most dangerous superstition in human history.

 

[Wuwei]

If, for example, you think keeping evolution out of science classes is militant atheism, I strongly disagree.

Is evolution kept out of science class in any public school in the U.S.A.?

I made a typo. See correction in post #21 above

 

[CrusaderFrank]

LOL@ Anti-science

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Remember when Einstein called Bohr a "Relativity Denier"?

Yeah, me nether

Denier is a Cult word that no real scientist would ever use

 

[Wuwei]

The universe follows mathematical laws which are an inanimate process.

Why should the universe follow such laws? Why should the universe be orderly? Why can the universe be described by equations not a few scientists have called elegant and even beautiful?

I have no idea. If you want to say an intelligent designer did it, that's fine, but it adds nothing to science nor understanding. It only makes some people think they explained something.

I love science, but I don't like materialism/atheism. Materialism is the most dangerous superstition in human history.

Science is materialism but you love science and don't like materialism. ... an oxymoron.
Materialism is superstition? That's a twist on the meaning of superstition.

 

[Thunderbird]

To me, it's the attempt to bring religious concepts into secular institutions such as schools or government that I think is "militant theism".

So teachers should not be allowed to teach Jefferson's Declaration of Independence, Lincoln's Gettysburg Address or Second Inaugural Address or MLK's I Have a Dream Speech?!

Should we sandblast the Jefferson Memorial to get rid of the offending words?

 

[Thunderbird]

Excerpt from MLK's I Have a Dream Speech:

And this will be the day -- this will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with new meaning:

My country 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing.

Land where my fathers died, land of the Pilgrim's pride,

From every mountainside, let freedom ring!

And if America is to be a great nation, this must become true.

And so let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire.

Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York.

Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania.

Let freedom ring from the snow-capped Rockies of Colorado.

Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California.

But not only that:

Let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia.

Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee.

Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi.

From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

And when this happens, and when we allow freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual:

Free at last! Free at last!

Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!

 

[Wuwei]

To me, it's the attempt to bring religious concepts into secular institutions such as schools or government that I think is "militant theism".

So teachers should not be allowed to teach Jefferson's Declaration of Independence, Lincoln's Gettysburg Address or Second Inaugural Address or MLK's I Have a Dream Speech?!

Should we sandblast the Jefferson Memorial to get rid of the offending words?

OK, my definition was too broad. I might amend it to cover "teaching religious concepts" and not "religious concepts" Feel free to come up with more counterexamples, then I will continue to amend it until we are both satisfied.

 

[Wuwei]

Excerpt from MLK's I Have a Dream Speech:

And this will be the day -- this will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with new meaning:

.... speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual:

Free at last! Free at last!

Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!

Very nice speech. The first amendment gave him the right to give that speech. Did you post this as a counterexample of something?

 

[Thunderbird]

If God created us in His image (through evolution or other means) then we deserve dignity and rights. If we are a random product of a chaotic universe why do we merit either?

Reductionists see us as merely a sack of chemicals without free will. Some of the atheist leaders explicitly deny the existence of human freedom. Can you see how this view serves dictators? Men become just inconsequential objects to be used at the dictators' pleasure.

 

[Thunderbird]

Science is materialism

No! Materialism vs. Science

 

[Wuwei]

Hard science is the creation of mathematical models that represent physical processes and excel at modeling the interactions of a few atoms. That falls under the definition of materialism. Large interacting systems become too complex to accurately model in practice although the building blocks are understood and are still materialistic. Therefore different methods are used to approximate the emergent phenomena. That is what Hume and Dawkins are covering in the essay you cited.

It is easy to see that the strict materialistic models cannot handle emergent phenomena such as the softer sciences of weather forecasting, psychology, etc. Nevertheless the principles underlying the emergent phenomena are still materialistic.

Look at the cellular automata in:
Conway s Game of Life - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
The moving image arises from four very simple rules. A large array following the rules gives rise to inexplicable evolution of growth patterns ... sort of like bacterial life.

 

[Wuwei]

If God created us in His image (through evolution or other means) then we deserve dignity and rights. If we are a random product of a chaotic universe why do we merit either?

Secular "morals" provide a strong survival value for each of the more highly developed species. Many experiments have found that monkeys for example have feelings of fairness, feelings about stealing etc. Anyone violating social norms are ostracized from the clan. These social codes did not come from monkeys believing in god; they evolved as a method for keeping the strength and survival of the clan.

 

[Thunderbird]

Secular "morals" provide a strong survival value for each of the more highly developed species. Many experiments have found that monkeys for example have feelings of fairness, feelings about stealing etc. Anyone violating social norms are ostracized from the clan. These social codes did not come from monkeys believing in god; they evolved as a method for keeping the strength and survival of the clan.

Non-human primates do all kinds of terrible things, like war and cannibalism and infanticide! Strength and survival of the clan often comes from brutal treatment of those outside the clan. If you are only interested in survival it may be convenient for you to kill those weaker than you.

Female-led Infanticide In Wild Chimpanzees

Chimps Engage in 'War' for Turf

 

[Wuwei]

Non-human primates do all kinds of terrible things, like war and cannibalism and infanticide! Strength and survival of the clan often comes from brutal treatment of those outside the clan. If you are only interested in survival it may be convenient for you to kill those weaker than you.

Female-led Infanticide In Wild Chimpanzees
Chimps Engage in 'War' for Turf

Interesting point. That aspect of the ethos of chimpanzee clans mirrors human clans.

Internal clan morals are much “nicer” than the clan-to-clan ethos in both species. China has thousands of years of history of infanticide. The chimps do it between clans. The Chinese did it to their own.

Also war for turf. Where have we seen that before.

The interesting point you bring up is that there are totally different moral codes within a clan (nation) than there are between clans (nation to nation). That's survival for ya.

So Chimpanzees don't need the myth of religion to mimic the good and the bad of the moral-human. It's evolution that has dictated both.

 

[usfan]

Science not a democratic process. It is irrelevant what the majority believes. Science is a process.. a methodology of discovery. It is not an end, it is a process.

many who worship at the altar of science are not really scientists, nor do they follow the scientific method. They are religious fanatics, who use scientific sounding jargon to prop up their beliefs.

True science is dispassionate.. it is not emotional or politically correct. There are more things that 'science' does not know than it knows. Humans are notorious for wanting neat little packages of ideology, & they use science to justify their speculations. But they do violence to the scientific method, & misuse the true function of scientific discover, making claims in the name of science that it cannot make.

 

[usfan]

The modern scientific establishment is NO DIFFERENT than any in the past.. they assume omnipotence, & demand worship. They arrogantly float around in their flowing robes of sanctimony, while oppressing any genuine, open pursuit of Truth. They are, & have always been, enemies of real science, & the pursuit of truth. True science IS humble. They do not dogmatically claim anything that cannot be proved, scientifically. Uncertainty & inquiry are their central tenets, not mandates & decrees.