Zone1 Question about Genesis 9.

[luiza]

Seems a reasonable explanation:-

So my question is, why did Noah freak out when he got a blanket placed over him and place a curse on Canaan?

Anyone know what’s up with that?

In the curse of Noah upon Canaan he was not punishing him personally for something his father Ham had done. The words of Noah refer not to Canaan himself, but to the nation that would come from him.
Ham had caused a breach between himself and his father, Noah , that called for some type of judgment.
The judgment would occur on his descendants.

My questions then are ,
What did Ham really do which warranted all of the fuss?
Why was Ham's responsibility shunted onto his son?
Why bring "judgements" into the story ?
Why not a quick chat and resolution?

Another crazy Cult piece of Mumbo Jumbo ?

 

[Meriweather]

Another crazy Cult piece of Mumbo Jumbo ?

I believe one of the great lessons revealed in the story of Noah is the power of speech. What was it the people were doing that Noah was not, and was considered righteous because of it. What should future generations avoid? And didn't....

Notice that Noah didn't speak. Then his first words were a curse upon a member of his family which would start strife all over again.

 

[Ace Nova]

It's not sexual in nature - it doesn't need to be if you understand the severity of what Ham did.

"To the Hebrews drunkenness is wanton, dishonorable, and humiliating; it provokes ridicule, leads to idolatry, incites violence, causes injustice and poverty, and makes persons subject to their enemies. It is unseemly especially for the leaders of nations. Clothing, then, in addition to being a means of decency, expresses the dignity of the person and his or her social position. When naked (Gen 3:7), Adam and Eve are deprived of glory and grace; the garments of skin with which God clothes them (Gen 3:21) are symbolic of their hope of being clothed again in their lost dignity."

Ham saw his father in a very dishonorable state, lying naked after getting drunk. Instead of respectfully and quietly covering his father out of honor - he told his brothers that their father was in a drunken, naked state - essentially mocking their father - causing the "return of sin".

Had Ham covered his father without saying a word to anyone about it - Noah's mistake would not have been witnessed and mocked as a sin. Ham's sin by dishonoring his father when his father was already in a humiliated state also caused his father's sin to be realized - sin leads to more sin.

Ham then put his brothers in a difficult position which could have caused them to "sin" by disrespecting their father.

Instead, his brothers - by walking backwards (not witnessing their father in a naked/dishonored state) restored their father's honor by "covering him up" so that no one could witness him in that state. They chose a much more difficult path in order to remain "righteous" and to restore "righteousness" to their father.

"Ham was the father of the people of Canaan."

“Cursed be Canaan!
A slave of slaves
shall he be to his brothers!”
26 And he continued,

“Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem,
and let Canaan be his slave!
May God enlarge Japheth
so that he dwells in the land of Shem;
and let Canaan be his slave!”

Since Ham was "The Father of the people of Canaan" and chose a path of "sin" instead of "honor" his people would do the same - but since righteousness defeats sin (As shown by his brothers) his people's ways would be defeated by "The righteous ways" of his brothers and their people.

 

[Cougarbear]

It's not sexual in nature - it doesn't need to be if you understand the severity of what Ham did.

"To the Hebrews drunkenness is wanton, dishonorable, and humiliating; it provokes ridicule, leads to idolatry, incites violence, causes injustice and poverty, and makes persons subject to their enemies. It is unseemly especially for the leaders of nations. Clothing, then, in addition to being a means of decency, expresses the dignity of the person and his or her social position. When naked (Gen 3:7), Adam and Eve are deprived of glory and grace; the garments of skin with which God clothes them (Gen 3:21) are symbolic of their hope of being clothed again in their lost dignity."

Ham saw his father in a very dishonorable state, lying naked after getting drunk. Instead of respectfully and quietly covering his father out of honor - he told his brothers that their father was in a drunken, naked state - essentially mocking their father - causing the "return of sin".

Had Ham covered his father without saying a word to anyone about it - Noah's mistake would not have been witnessed and mocked as a sin. Ham's sin by dishonoring his father when his father was already in a humiliated state also caused his father's sin to be realized - sin leads to more sin.

Ham then went on to put his brothers in a difficult position in which they could have also easily "sinned" by disrespecting their father.

Instead, his brothers - by walking backwards (not witnessing their father in a naked/dishonored state) restored their father's honor by "covering him up" so that no one could witness him in that state. They chose a much more difficult path in order to remain "righteous" and to restore "righteousness" to their father.

"Ham was the father of the people of Canaan."

“Cursed be Canaan!
A slave of slaves
shall he be to his brothers!”
26 And he continued,

“Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem,
and let Canaan be his slave!
May God enlarge Japheth
so that he dwells in the land of Shem;
and let Canaan be his slave!”

Since Ham was "The Father of the people of Canaan" and chose a path of "sin" instead of "honor" his people would do the same - but since righteousness defeats sin (As shown by his brothers) his people's ways would be defeated by "The righteous ways" of his brothers and their people.

So, he could keep the sin of Cain going forward as good and evil in the world to test us.

 

[Ace Nova]

So, he could keep the sin of Cain going forward as good and evil in the world to test us.

A new covenant was established with Noah:

"Covenant of Mercy.

8 God said to Noah and his sons, 9 “As for me, I will establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you, 10 with every living creature along with you—the birds, tame and wild animals, and with all the animals which left the ark. 11 I will establish my covenant with you: never again will all living creatures be cut off by the waters of a flood, nor will the earth be laid waste by a flood again.”

12 God said, “This will be a sign of the covenant that I establish between me and you and every living creature for all generations. 13 I will place my rainbow in the clouds and it will be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 When I gather the clouds over the earth, the rainbow will appear in the clouds. 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and with every living creature of every kind, that water and flood shall never again destroy all flesh. 16 The rainbow will be in the clouds and I will look upon it and remember the eternal covenant between God and every living creature of every kind that is found upon the earth.”

17 God said to Noah, “This is a sign of the covenant that I am establishing between myself and every creature upon the earth.”


God didn't curse Ham/Canaan. Noah didn't curse Ham/Canaan.

Noah was stating that Ham's ways would lead his people astray but his brother's ways would lead their people to "righteousness".

This is ever evolving - what was considered a "sin" and absolutely disrespectful among people of that time/culture - may not be considered a "sin" or disrespectful in other times/cultures.

The idea is that if you know someone is suffering/made a mistake - don't make it worse by mocking them - take the higher road (Even if it's more difficult) and try help them out of that situation the best way you can. "Love your neighbor as yourself"

 

[Cougarbear]

A new covenant was established with Noah:

"Covenant of Mercy.

8 God said to Noah and his sons, 9 “As for me, I will establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you, 10 with every living creature along with you—the birds, tame and wild animals, and with all the animals which left the ark. 11 I will establish my covenant with you: never again will all living creatures be cut off by the waters of a flood, nor will the earth be laid waste by a flood again.”

12 God said, “This will be a sign of the covenant that I establish between me and you and every living creature for all generations. 13 I will place my rainbow in the clouds and it will be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 When I gather the clouds over the earth, the rainbow will appear in the clouds. 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and with every living creature of every kind, that water and flood shall never again destroy all flesh. 16 The rainbow will be in the clouds and I will look upon it and remember the eternal covenant between God and every living creature of every kind that is found upon the earth.”

17 God said to Noah, “This is a sign of the covenant that I am establishing between myself and every creature upon the earth.”


God didn't curse Ham/Canaan. Noah didn't curse Ham/Canaan.

Noah was stating that Ham's ways would lead his people astray but his brother's ways would lead their people to "righteousness".

This is ever evolving - what was considered a "sin" and absolutely disrespectful among people of that time/culture - may not be considered a "sin" or disrespectful in other times/cultures.

The idea is that if you know someone is suffering/made a mistake - don't make it worse by mocking them - take the higher road (Even if it's more difficult) and try help them out of that situation the best way you can. "Love your neighbor as yourself"

It doesn’t matter the time period. It was a sin then. We know what disobedience is in any time period. What Noah did then is a sin today too.

 

[Ace Nova]

It doesn’t matter the time period. It was a sin then. We know what disobedience is in any time period. What Noah did then is a sin today too.

Depends. Was it done with intent or by mistake? People make mistakes all the time - God knows what's in a person's heart.

Now what could make that mistake worse - is someone judging that person for that mistake - or worse yet, accusing that person of sinning.

In your opinion, which is worse?

Drinking too much one night - not realizing it - then waking up the next day realizing you drank too much, feeling embarrassed and admitting it was a mistake.

OR

Someone playing "Judge, Jury and Executioner" telling that person, "You made a fool of yourself last night. I'm telling everyone what you did. You should be ashamed of yourself - what you did was a sin."


If you stated the 2nd, then you agree with the overall point of the parable - Noah's "sin" was dealt with immediately - with the amount of scorn, humiliation he received and by being mocked by his son.

Ham's mistake, on the other hand - mocking him - not helping him - would become the way of his people - who would be defeated by others who's ways are in accordance to what Noah's other sons did - they helped, instead of mocked - they redeemed, instead of accused.



Matthew 7:

Do Not Judge.1 “Do not judge, so that you in turn may not be judged. 2 For you will be judged in the same way that you judge others, and the measure that you use for others will be used to measure you.

3 “Why do you take note of the splinter in your brother’s eye but do not notice the wooden plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove that splinter from your eye,’ while all the time the wooden plank remains in your own? 5 You hypocrite! First remove the wooden plank from your own eye, and then you will be able to see clearly enough to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.

 

[Cougarbear]

Depends. Was it done with intent or by mistake? People make mistakes all the time - God knows what's in a person's heart.

Now what could make that mistake worse - is someone judging that person for that mistake - or worse yet, accusing that person of sinning.

In your opinion, which is worse?

Drinking too much one night - not realizing it - then waking up the next day realizing you drank too much, feeling embarrassed and admitting it was a mistake.

OR

Someone playing "Judge, Jury and Executioner" telling that person, "You made a fool of yourself last night. I'm telling everyone what you did. You should be ashamed of yourself - what you did was a sin."


If you stated the 2nd, then you agree with the overall point of the parable - Noah's "sin" was dealt with immediately - with the amount of scorn, humiliation he received and by being mocked by his son.

Ham's mistake, on the other hand - mocking him - not helping him - would become the way of his people - who would be defeated by others who's ways are in accordance to what Noah's other sons did - they helped, instead of mocked - they redeemed, instead of accused.



Matthew 7:

Do Not Judge.1 “Do not judge, so that you in turn may not be judged. 2 For you will be judged in the same way that you judge others, and the measure that you use for others will be used to measure you.

3 “Why do you take note of the splinter in your brother’s eye but do not notice the wooden plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove that splinter from your eye,’ while all the time the wooden plank remains in your own? 5 You hypocrite! First remove the wooden plank from your own eye, and then you will be able to see clearly enough to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.

Agreed. We should also know to warn our neighbors, friends, family and our enemies when they are slipping towards the cliff. It can be done by those who are called to judge righteously too. Excommunication and disfellowship is to be done only with sever sins with the idea to lift the burden completely off a person so they can be re-baptized and start over. The rest of us should be there to assist the sinner back into full fellowship and warning as friends.

 

[surada]

Noah's son Ham raped him when he was drunk.

The other 2 sons covered up their abused father.

That's why a curse was placed on Ham and his lineage.

Where does it say Noah was raped?

 

[BackAgain]

In Genesis 9 it says Noah got drunk in his vineyard and laid on his hammock naked..

It then says Noah’s son Ham saw Noah laying naked, and Ham told his brothers Shem and Japheth to place a blanket over their dad Noah..

Noah then awoken with a blanket on him, and for some reason placed a curse upon Ham’s son Canaan, making him a slave.

So my question is, why did Noah freak out when he got a blanket placed over him and place a curse on Canaan?

Anyone know what’s up with that?

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 9 - New International Version

God’s Covenant With Noah - Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all...

www.biblegateway.com

Wow. Curses had value way back when.

 

[surada]

Seems a reasonable explanation:-



In the curse of Noah upon Canaan he was not punishing him personally for something his father Ham had done. The words of Noah refer not to Canaan himself, but to the nation that would come from him.
Ham had caused a breach between himself and his father, Noah , that called for some type of judgment.
The judgment would occur on his descendants.

My questions then are ,
What did Ham really do which warranted all of the fuss?
Why was Ham's responsibility shunted onto his son?
Why bring "judgements" into the story ?
Why not a quick chat and resolution?

Another crazy Cult piece of Mumbo Jumbo ?

An excuse to kill Canaanites.