Zone1 Question for Christians

[hadit]

So many absurdities in christianity. It purports to be based on the teachings of Jesus, yet Paul, who never actually met Jesus, was the author of most of the NT, where he contradicted Jesus's teachings many times. A supposedly loving, nurturing god who also tells soldiers that women and little ones were the spoils of war, and the soldiers should use them as such. Read it for yourself, or, you can do like todays christians have always done and ignore the parts you don't like and even add a little to it, if you think it will justify your real wishes.

1. Where did Paul contradict Yeshua?
2. It is the same God who holds judgement for a very long time, wanting the people to come to repentance, then metes out judgement when it's needed. What you don't like is that you are not consulted on when it's needed and what form it will take.
3. I have read the Old Testament, and I have also read where Yeshua built on the precepts of the Law and raised the bar from mere actions into thoughts. I have also understood that God has laid out the way of redemption for man and we would be foolish in the extreme to shun it in favor of the judgement we see meted out. Foolish.

Oh, and Paul did meet the risen Yeshua in glory when he was struck blind.

 

[Meriweather]

Read it for yourself, or, you can do like todays christians have always done and ignore the parts you don't like and even add a little to it, if you think it will justify your real wishes.

Isn't that what you are doing? Picking the parts that support your decision to leave the faith, and ignoring the rest?

 

[BULLDOG]

1. Where did Paul contradict Yeshua?
2. It is the same God who holds judgement for a very long time, wanting the people to come to repentance, then metes out judgement when it's needed. What you don't like is that you are not consulted on when it's needed and what form it will take.
3. I have read the Old Testament, and I have also read where Yeshua built on the precepts of the Law and raised the bar from mere actions into thoughts. I have also understood that God has laid out the way of redemption for man and we would be foolish in the extreme to shun it in favor of the judgement we see meted out. Foolish.

Oh, and Paul did meet the risen Yeshua in glory when he was struck blind.

Paul Contradicts Jesus

A list of Paul's contradictions of Jesus

www.voiceofjesus.org

 

[BULLDOG]

Isn't that what you are doing? Picking the parts that support your decision to leave the faith, and ignoring the rest?

Now that is rich. I point out the contradictions and atrosities that prevent me from sharing your faith, and you accuse me of cherrypicking. You really don't see the absurdity in that? The difference is I point out why it can't all possibly be true. You ignore the parts you don't like and tell yourself it's all true.

 

[Meriweather]

Now that is rich. I point out the contradictions and atrosities that prevent me from sharing your faith, and you accuse me of cherrypicking. You really don't see the absurdity in that? The difference is I point out why it can't all possibly be true. You ignore the parts you don't like and tell yourself it's all true.

It is not an accusation, merely an observation. I am noting you have been insistent that Christians only pick what they want. I just asked isn't that why you left the faith--by focusing on certain passages and deciding they held more importance than others?

By the way, I didn't ignore the parts I "don't like". As I have told you twice before, the parts puzzled me I spent decades of study and research to see how they properly fit into the tapestry that makes up the entire Bible.

When what is not liked is thrown out, whether those are the accounts that causes a loss of faith, or whether those are the parts that hold people fast their faith, it is like tossing out pieces of a puzzle because of not liking the color or the shape. When choosing to put a puzzle together doing this, the puzzle is going to be incomplete. The same is true of the Bible.

Bulldog, just because you spent a large portion of your life either ignoring or not knowing about the parts that came into clear focus for you later, doesn't mean the same was true for others. They have always been clear to--if not most of us--then at least many of us, and we see them as a part of our story.

It seems to me, if you decided if you were going to have faith or believe in God, then certain parts of the Bible should never have occurred. Since they did, despite the rest of the Bible, no faith,

The Jews became a people who rejected child sacrifice because of a story where "God said" and Abraham did not. We see the same thing in the story of Joshua. Look closely, and it is apparent nor did Joshua do as "God said". In both cases, with study and research, we see that what "God said" were both what was the norm in society at the time. (Remember the mindset of the time if something happened--even the least thing--it was because God allowed it.) The Jews were learning that not going along with the norm was even more pleasing to God. (God in our midst.)

So, yes. I have noticed your insistence that Christians choose what they like and throw away the rest. Isn't that what you are doing? You keep hold of the parts (cherry-picking) that support dropping your faith--and then turned it around so that it was the rest of us who keep the faith are cherry-picking. Perhaps at least consider that those of us who keep the faith, simply delved deeper (and at an earlier age) into Biblical studies.

 

[BULLDOG]

It is not an accusation, merely an observation. I am noting you have been insistent that Christians only pick what they want. I just asked isn't that why you left the faith--by focusing on certain passages and deciding they held more importance than others?

By the way, I didn't ignore the parts I "don't like". As I have told you twice before, the parts puzzled me I spent decades of study and research to see how they properly fit into the tapestry that makes up the entire Bible.

When what is not liked is thrown out, whether those are the accounts that causes a loss of faith, or whether those are the parts that hold people fast their faith, it is like tossing out pieces of a puzzle because of not liking the color or the shape. When choosing to put a puzzle together doing this, the puzzle is going to be incomplete. The same is true of the Bible.

Bulldog, just because you spent a large portion of your life either ignoring or not knowing about the parts that came into clear focus for you later, doesn't mean the same was true for others. They have always been clear to--if not most of us--then at least many of us, and we see them as a part of our story.

It seems to me, if you decided if you were going to have faith or believe in God, then certain parts of the Bible should never have occurred. Since they did, despite the rest of the Bible, no faith,

The Jews became a people who rejected child sacrifice because of a story where "God said" and Abraham did not. We see the same thing in the story of Joshua. Look closely, and it is apparent nor did Joshua do as "God said". In both cases, with study and research, we see that what "God said" were both what was the norm in society at the time. (Remember the mindset of the time if something happened--even the least thing--it was because God allowed it.) The Jews were learning that not going along with the norm was even more pleasing to God. (God in our midst.)

So, yes. I have noticed your insistence that Christians choose what they like and throw away the rest. Isn't that what you are doing? You keep hold of the parts (cherry-picking) that support dropping your faith--and then turned it around so that it was the rest of us who keep the faith are cherry-picking. Perhaps at least consider that those of us who keep the faith, simply delved deeper (and at an earlier age) into Biblical studies.

There is a crack n your logic. I never said one passage was more important than another. I said if one passage was true, the other could not be true. Diametrically opposed beliefs cannot be reconsiled without compromise in which one or both sides must discard part of it's meaning. Compromise is great for people who are willing to discard part of their goal for the greater good, but not for a religion that is based on a specific set of rules that are unchanged through time. It's not like Jesus is still waking among us, and he can say "oh, never mind about that part. Times change, and so have I." When two things are opposite, You have to decide which one you want to believe, and ignore the other. That's just reality.

 

[Meriweather]

There is a crack n your logic. I never said one passage was more important than another. I said if one passage was true, the other could not be true. Diametrically opposed beliefs cannot be reconsiled without compromise in which one or both sides must discard part of it's meaning. Compromise is great for people who are willing to discard part of their goal for the greater good, but not for a religion that is based on a specific set of rules that are unchanged through time. It's not like Jesus is still waking among us, and he can say "oh, never mind about that part. Times change, and so have I." When two things are opposite, You have to decide which one you want to believe, and ignore the other. That's just reality.

You see "diametrically opposed beliefs". Which diametrically opposed beliefs do you see? Keep in mind one might consider a seed and a flower diametrically opposed, when in fact what we are seeing and noting are the different stages of development. We have never been a static people in a static world.

 

[zaangalewa]

I understand all the words.
BUT
When you put them in that order you are incomprehensible.

View attachment 795426

Hmmm. ... How good are you in mathematics?

 

[zaangalewa]

I have studied long but the journey is just beginning.

Aha. ... Wish you a good spiritual journey. ...

 

[zaangalewa]

So I guess Hitler killing 6 million Jews was not extreme enough right?

Aha - That's why you don't believe in god as Hitler was doing ... Opposing Hitler means to believe in His people and their god, who are also my people and my god, isn't it?

 

[BULLDOG]

You see "diametrically opposed beliefs". Which diametrically opposed beliefs do you see? Keep in mind one might consider a seed and a flower diametrically opposed, when in fact what we are seeing and noting are the different stages of development. We have never been a static people in a static world.

I assumed you had read the OP. There is an excellen example of diametrically opposed beliefs there. That's kinda what the thread is about.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I was devoutly Christian until I did a deep study of the bible which presented questions I couldn't find the answers to, and nobody I asked even tried to answer. I wish I could reclaim my faith. Believing in a loving, all knowing God who deeply cared about me personally gave me great comfort in hard times, and I wish I could regain peace that came from the belief that all things would work for the good to them that love God. I conveniently ignored the following part that said only those that were called according to his purpose.

Paul was quite specific when he said there is nothing in human desire or effort to gain forgiveness. God will show mercy or harden who he wants, and nothing we believe, say, or do will have anything to do with his choice. (Romans 9: 16-18) Paul goes on to explain that some people were only created as examples of his glory to be shown to the objects of his mercy. (Romans 9: 19-23) Obviously, those people were created to go to hell, since there is nothing they can believe , or do to change Gods decision on mercy.

Help me out here. Does God offer the chance to go to heaven to everybody, or just his chosen few, and how do you justify what Paul wrote with the idea of a benevolent forgiving God?

I'm not a Christian. I understand where you're coming from, a lot of people find things difficult, I have been questioning the point of life, the point of continuing, for quite a while.

What I've found is that you need a purpose. My job gives me a purpose. Family can give you a purpose.
Often what you find is that there is "hope." Obama used it "Hope, not hate", Trump used it "Make America Great Again". People who come up with messages of "hope" (that they'll never be able to deliver) will get elected because it's what people want to hear.
Hope is with youth. When people have kids they move their hope over from themselves to their kids. Sometimes if you don't have kids, or grandkids to help, that hope can diminish.
Part of religion allows people to help out in their community. That allows people to put their hope onto kids that aren't their own. It doesn't need to be a religious thing, but it often is. Helping others is a way of doing that.

 

[BULLDOG]

I'm not a Christian. I understand where you're coming from, a lot of people find things difficult, I have been questioning the point of life, the point of continuing, for quite a while.

What I've found is that you need a purpose. My job gives me a purpose. Family can give you a purpose.
Often what you find is that there is "hope." Obama used it "Hope, not hate", Trump used it "Make America Great Again". People who come up with messages of "hope" (that they'll never be able to deliver) will get elected because it's what people want to hear.
Hope is with youth. When people have kids they move their hope over from themselves to their kids. Sometimes if you don't have kids, or grandkids to help, that hope can diminish.
Part of religion allows people to help out in their community. That allows people to put their hope onto kids that aren't their own. It doesn't need to be a religious thing, but it often is. Helping others is a way of doing that.

Why does everyone seem to think you have to have religion to have a purpose, or a sense of community?. They are seperate things, and one doesn't depend on the other.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Why does everyone seem to think you have to have religion to have a purpose, or a sense of community?. They are seperate things, and one doesn't depend on the other.

Because religion is aimed at those things. They get people together every Sunday or whenever, they have people whose job is to organize such things.

Without religion a lot of people are, in the modern world, more independent, more alone.
Of course it depends on the place, some places might be better for society than others, if it rains a lot, people stay at home, if it's sunny they might go outside.

 

[Meriweather]

I assumed you had read the OP. There is an excellen example of diametrically opposed beliefs there. That's kinda what the thread is about.

Correct. I read the OP. Apparently my responses went unread.

Your two "diametrically opposed beliefs" weave together. Jesus parable of the tares and the wheat also comes to mind.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

“Why does everyone seem to think you have to have religion to have a purpose, or a sense of community?. They are seperate things, and one doesn't depend on the other.” — Bulldog

Both Judaism and Christianity arose out of collective mass neurosis and evolved into a sort of organized insanity. Judiasm developed to meet profound psychological needs of a tribal people with more or less unique historical experiences, whereas Christianity was a much more universalist religion, and evolved from Judiasm to meet equally profound psychological needs of the much larger pagan Roman Mediterranean civilization. That civilization was in a profound state of crisis at the time.

Of course Christianity in particular threw up an organized caste of priests which developed political and social power over centuries and helped administer the morality and laws of society. These priestly elites did not necessarily replace arbitrary power of Emperors, Kings, etc. They ultimately helped the now “Godly” state power rule over the people.

Religion and superstition still holds power over the minds of a good part of humanity, despite the rise of science and reason. It still meets profound psychological needs, despite the development of mass culture providing new forms of fantasy — some satisfying, others repulsive but still “profitable.” Most nominal Christians today recognize that many of their sect’s formally required “beliefs” are not really rational or true. But they still consider themselves Christian.

Most everybody at one time or another feels confused and lacks a sense of purpose or hope, or just senses the lack of social consciousness in our society and is repulsed. People stick to religion … because it is there.

The ancient roots of Christian belief go deep in Western society, and many are simply not yet able to embrace a more rational humanistic morality, which seems to offer little in the way of immediate gratification in times of crisis. Of course there are also plenty of fakers who simply pretend to believe, sufferers who neurotically act out their delusions, and even honest and pious folk who find “grace” while acting morally and unselfishly.

 

[BULLDOG]

Correct. I read the OP. Apparently my responses went unread.

Your two "diametrically opposed beliefs" weave together. Jesus parable of the tares and the wheat also comes to mind.

In that case, I'm confused as to why you would ask for an example of diametrically opposed teachings in the bible. Jesus v Paul's teachings are exactly oposite in that case. Nothing in any of your responses changed that. They don't weave together. Paul says this, Jesus says that. Not the same. You have to accept the first and ignore the other, or ignore the first and accept the other. That is the nature of reality.

 

[Meriweather]

Why does everyone seem to think you have to have religion to have a purpose, or a sense of community?.

Living in a family of atheists and having numerous atheist friends I can say not everyone thinks that. In fact, when judging from immediate circle of family and friends, no one thinks that.

 

[Meriweather]

That is the nature of reality.

In a one dimensional world, perhaps.

 

[BULLDOG]

In a one dimensional world, perhaps.

Which circles back to my origonal question in the OP. How do you resolve the difference in those two satements. I have searched and pondered the answer to that question, and have yet to find anything other than suspending reality and imagining they aren't incompatable. You say they somehow blend togeather. Please descrbe the nature of this blending, the nuts and bolts, of it.