Zone1 Question for Christians

[Meriweather]

Leaving god out of it? You're kidding, right? I have no idea what a religious faith that didn't focus on a god of some kind involved in every aspect of it would even be. Studying what was plainly written, as well as the history and culture of the time convinced me the god of the bible probably was just made up. I didn't lose my faith. It was yanked from my grip by reason, and what is actually written in the bible while I kicked and clawed trying to maintain my grip. Common sense, logic and reason won.

Not kidding, quite serious, The Bible also has accounts of the magnificence of God, and He is credited for any number of good things. A person of faith has a relationship with God. A person of faith is seriously following the precept of putting God first, of seeing the divine spark in others, and as Christians usually relate to at least one, if not all of the Beatitudes. People of faith are serious about forgiving others, about being merciful, and about bringing peace and kindness into the lives of those who are close to them.

Forty years crossing the desert was hard and filled with tragedy. They were not treated well by other tribes, who did not attack from the front where the men were, but from the rear, attacking women and children first. When the Israelites were ill and starving, they gave them no care. The Israelites were not declaring war, they were seeking peace--but if these tribes would not agree to peace, they would go to war and bring to their tribes what had already been done to them, and what would continue to be done to them. (An example of an eye for an eye.)

To get back to my very serious question: After practicing a faith for most of your life, you suddenly find a reason to no longer have faith. It is like saying, "Nothing in my life is reason enough to lose faith, but if I go back over thirty-five hundred years, I can find something I don't clearly understand and has nothing to do with me, but it is enough to abandon my faith."

Could it be there was something nearer, something in your own life, that had you questioning not only God, but your own faith?

 

[BULLDOG]

Not kidding, quite serious, The Bible also has accounts of the magnificence of God, and He is credited for any number of good things. A person of faith has a relationship with God. A person of faith is seriously following the precept of putting God first, of seeing the divine spark in others, and as Christians usually relate to at least one, if not all of the Beatitudes. People of faith are serious about forgiving others, about being merciful, and about bringing peace and kindness into the lives of those who are close to them.

Forty years crossing the desert was hard and filled with tragedy. They were not treated well by other tribes, who did not attack from the front where the men were, but from the rear, attacking women and children first. When the Israelites were ill and starving, they gave them no care. The Israelites were not declaring war, they were seeking peace--but if these tribes would not agree to peace, they would go to war and bring to their tribes what had already been done to them, and what would continue to be done to them. (An example of an eye for an eye.)

To get back to my very serious question: After practicing a faith for most of your life, you suddenly find a reason to no longer have faith. It is like saying, "Nothing in my life is reason enough to lose faith, but if I go back over thirty-five hundred years, I can find something I don't clearly understand and has nothing to do with me, but it is enough to abandon my faith."

Could it be there was something nearer, something in your own life, that had you questioning not only God, but your own faith?

You're just stumbling around now. God commanded harsher treatment than that. Read Deuteronomy 20: 10-17. I didn't suddenly do anything. I faithfully accepted all the things I had been taught as a child, and in later years, in an effort to learn more, to be a better Christian, I found that what I had been taught was cherrypicked stories that ignored large swathes of scripture, and ignored countless contradictions, leaving me unable to accept what I had believed as accurate, or honest, or moral.

 

[Meriweather]

You're just stumbling around now.

Actually, I am not. However, if that is what you are seeing, I'll take this post to say I have enjoyed our discussion and will happy to see you in another discussion hopefully sometime soon.

 

[BULLDOG]

Actually, I am not. However, if that is what you are seeing, I'll take this post to say I have enjoyed our discussion and will happy to see you in another discussion hopefully sometime soon.

Very well. I'll note that the question in the OP has yet to be convincingly answered.

Help me out here. Does God offer the chance to go to heaven to everybody, or just his chosen few, and how do you justify what Paul wrote with the idea of a benevolent forgiving God?

 

[Clyde 154]

I was devoutly Christian until I did a deep study of the bible which presented questions I couldn't find the answers to, and nobody I asked even tried to answer. I wish I could reclaim my faith. Believing in a loving, all knowing God who deeply cared about me personally gave me great comfort in hard times, and I wish I could regain peace that came from the belief that all things would work for the good to them that love God. I conveniently ignored the following part that said only those that were called according to his purpose.

Paul was quite specific when he said there is nothing in human desire or effort to gain forgiveness. God will show mercy or harden who he wants, and nothing we believe, say, or do will have anything to do with his choice. (Romans 9: 16-18) Paul goes on to explain that some people were only created as examples of his glory to be shown to the objects of his mercy. (Romans 9: 19-23) Obviously, those people were created to go to hell, since there is nothing they can believe , or do to change Gods decision on mercy.

Help me out here. Does God offer the chance to go to heaven to everybody, or just his chosen few, and how do you justify what Paul wrote with the idea of a benevolent forgiving God?

You are grossly misinterpreting Romans 9. The point Paul is making is the same point he made in Romans 13:1-4, Governments exist by the will of God, they are a force used by God to protect and defend the innocent from the unrighteous evil. Why? Because "vengeance is mine" saith the Lord.....I WILL REPAY (Rom. 12:9)

Read Romans 9 "in context" beginning with verse 1. Paul is pointing out that all those who call themselves servants of God and those who claim to be Israel.......and supporters of the Law, are not all righteous servants of Israel by are really servants of the flesh.....and are not of the true Israel proclaimed in the righteousness of the covenant....claiming to be seeds of Abraham is worthless if you refuse the righteousness offered by God through the covenant -- Romans 9:6-8

Paul also compared serving under the N.T. of grace as something that must be continued all through life.......because salvation is a gift of God and the prize goes not to all those who run in the race but all those who endure to the end of the race.....death. Even Paul, an apostle of Christ, hand picked by Jesus to minister to the gentiles, stated that it was a daily struggle to bring his flesh under control......he lived in fear that he who had converted so many to the faith.....might one day stumble. This race called life must be run daily with prayer and faith in order to obtain the promise of salvation (1 Cor. 9:24, 27, 2 Tim. 4:7, Romans 7:14-25)

You are quoting Romans 9:16-18 and attempting to apply it to ALL/EVERYONE, the righteous and the unrighteous.....when the scriptures point out that God can use even the evil unrighteous Government for His own will and there is nothing they can do to stop Him.....because they exist only by His will. You have to run this race called life EVERY DAY that you living (1 Cor.9:24 In Romans 9 Paul is explaining that God used the "Pharaoh" in a demonstration of His "omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience" -- Rom. 9: 17

The scriptures explain in detail that once God makes a plan..........its He that decides how, when and where He might decide to implement that plan. Even God cannot see into a future that does not yet exist..........He controls the future by making plans and executing those plans at a time of His will.........no one can stop Him. (Isa. 46:8-10)

A perfect example of this is revealed in the N.T. scriptures. We are informed in the Word of God..i.e, the Holy Scriptures that God had established a plan for man's salvation through the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ......even before the worlds were formed or as Paul states, before time itself began (1 Peter 1:20, 2 Tim. 1:9). The scriptures also state that this plan was hidden from mankind, even from the prophets who foretold of this plan (Eph. 3:5,6, 1 Peter 1:10-12). It was God that decided to reveal this "mystery" to the world at the proper time of His pleasing. The Mystery was revealed when God decided to reveal it through the Holy Spirit of Truth. (Col. 1:26-27)

 

[Meriweather]

Help me out here. Does God offer the chance to go to heaven to everybody, or just his chosen few, and how do you justify what Paul wrote with the idea of a benevolent forgiving God?

I'll note that the question in the OP has yet to be convincingly answered.

We may be in a place where "One convinced against one's will, holds the same opinion still." However, as I am not sure what the Baptist Church teaches, so I will offer Catholic teaching. Catholics don't talk about people being "saved." We speak of redemption and salvation.

Christ's sacrifice of his own life on the cross brought redemption to the world. Every human has been redeemed from the sin that was blocking our union with God. The Way of Salvation has been open, and this Way is open to all. In one of his letters Paul notes we should work out our salvation with fear/awe and trembling. Jesus noted this Way of the Kingdom is in the reach of everyone.

The Way is to discern the will of God and follow it. Whenever we are in disobedience to God, we turn from disobedience to obedience and failures are forgiven.

 

[zaangalewa]

It's a shame that out of such a large choice of words, you couldn't make a bit of sense about anything.

Keeps the question what it is what you call "shame" and whose shame this "shame" really is. To know less than nothing about the Christian religion - what's nearly the normal standard today - makes no one competent.

 

[zaangalewa]

"When did someone come to you on a Friday and took a look into your cooking pot whether you live vegan or not vegan? And what says Jesus about such rules? When did a Christian say to you you do not have to use the word "negroe" because this makes you to a racist or you have to accept that it are existing male people, female people and people with another sex - without being able to tell anyone which sex this could be."

This is unintelligible garbage.

Have you considered a translator?
Or maybe putting down the crack pipe before posting?

What do you not understand?

 

[zaangalewa]

Just look at how stupid the inline quotes make you look.
HINT: It's not the inline quotes, you're just stupid.

And about 20 years. In Buddhism I am but a child.

"3-month Buddhists" are for me people who think they are able to learn in three months what professional Tibetan monks need 30 years for to learn.

What means for you "In Buddhism I am but a child"?

 

[Blues Man]

No. What is inaccurate is our understanding.

Yeah OK

 

[Blues Man]

Do you not understand how things were done in those days? If you left any of your enemies alive, you had to deal with them again later. Sometimes, people got so bad they had to be completely wiped out. This is judgement, and a lot of people don't take it seriously, but they will.

So your god considered its own creations that it supposedly loved as enemies. Your god, an immortal, omnipotent, omniscient being, is so afraid of its mortal "enemies" which it created that it will kill children it also created?

Interesting.

 

[hadit]

So you don't think raping little girls is evil? Damn. Your religion has messed up your mind.

Why would you ever think that? You make amazing leaps of illogic, jumping from extreme to extreme, attempting to assign them to me, then attempting to make the argument about me. That's a really juvenile debate tactic, one that a lot of people successfully grow out of by the time they pass the age of 13.

You'll first have to show where you think God commanded "soldiers to take little girls to rape" if you want to keep going down the road.

 

[hadit]

So your god considered its own creations that it supposedly loved as enemies. Your god, an immortal, omnipotent, omniscient being, is so afraid of its mortal "enemies" which it created that it will kill children it also created?

Interesting.

God allowed man to choose evil, and he did. He still does to this day.

You've never directly addressed the question, would you have preferred God simply create man without the freedom to choose evil? Likely it's an inconvenient question, because once you allow man to choose evil, you have to deal with the likelihood that he not only will choose it but will take it to the extreme. Obviously, you disagree with God bringing judgment because your 21st century western mentality thinks it's too harsh, or something. You also disagree with Him showing grace and mercy to those you think shouldn't get it. Basically, you're not happy with judgement OR mercy and think YOUR morality should be the dividing line. You would have those stopped that YOU think should be stopped, and everyone else left alone to continue doing evil. When God brings judgement on evil, be prepared to be judged yourself, because your standard of what is evil is not the one used.

God allows man to go a long time before judgement because He wants ALL to repent, not just the ones we like.

 

[BULLDOG]

Why would you ever think that? You make amazing leaps of illogic, jumping from extreme to extreme, attempting to assign them to me, then attempting to make the argument about me. That's a really juvenile debate tactic, one that a lot of people successfully grow out of by the time they pass the age of 13.

You'll first have to show where you think God commanded "soldiers to take little girls to rape" if you want to keep going down the road.

Deuteronomy 20: 10-17

 

[Blues Man]

God allowed man to choose evil, and he did. He still does to this day.

You've never directly addressed the question, would you have preferred God simply create man without the freedom to choose evil? Likely it's an inconvenient question, because once you allow man to choose evil, you have to deal with the likelihood that he not only will choose it but will take it to the extreme. Obviously, you disagree with God bringing judgment because your 21st century western mentality thinks it's too harsh, or something. You also disagree with Him showing grace and mercy to those you think shouldn't get it. Basically, you're not happy with judgement OR mercy and think YOUR morality should be the dividing line. You would have those stopped that YOU think should be stopped, and everyone else left alone to continue doing evil. When God brings judgement on evil, be prepared to be judged yourself, because your standard of what is evil is not the one used.

God allows man to go a long time before judgement because He wants ALL to repent, not just the ones we like.

And yet you say your god thinks children are his enemy

 

[BULLDOG]

God allowed man to choose evil, and he did. He still does to this day.

You've never directly addressed the question, would you have preferred God simply create man without the freedom to choose evil? Likely it's an inconvenient question, because once you allow man to choose evil, you have to deal with the likelihood that he not only will choose it but will take it to the extreme. Obviously, you disagree with God bringing judgment because your 21st century western mentality thinks it's too harsh, or something. You also disagree with Him showing grace and mercy to those you think shouldn't get it. Basically, you're not happy with judgement OR mercy and think YOUR morality should be the dividing line. You would have those stopped that YOU think should be stopped, and everyone else left alone to continue doing evil. When God brings judgement on evil, be prepared to be judged yourself, because your standard of what is evil is not the one used.

God allows man to go a long time before judgement because He wants ALL to repent, not just the ones we like.

Don't be so dumb. Do you think total freedom to do as you please (anarchy), or no choice at all (slavery) are the only two options? As a country, we are able to regulate the wide difference to those two extremes. Would a god who wasn't able to navigate the same choice be worthy of following?

 

[hadit]

Deuteronomy 20: 10-17

I don't see where rape of little girls is commanded. I do see total destruction of the nations that were occupying the land God promised to Israel, and that only if a city refused an offer of peace. They didn't always follow through on it, however, and that cost them a great deal later on, which shows the wisdom of doing what God commands, the way He says to do it.

God takes judgement seriously, so should we.

 

[hadit]

And yet you say your god thinks children are his enemy

No. You need to understand and study what the nation of Israel was dealing with before you can make a statement like that.

 

[Blues Man]

No. You need to understand and study what the nation of Israel was dealing with before you can make a statement like that.

We are not talking about Israel we are talking about your god.

An immortal, omniscient, omnipotent being that feels the needs to kill children because they are considered enemies.

 

[hadit]

Don't be so dumb. Do you think total freedom to do as you please (anarchy), or no choice at all (slavery) are the only two options? As a country, we are able to regulate the wide difference to those two extremes. Would a god who wasn't able to navigate the same choice be worthy of following?

Oh, I see, you want God to use YOUR moral compass. What makes you think that God does NOT stop evil when it gets too extreme? Weren't you just complaining that you didn't like the way He did it? And, our country's response to crimes has changed over the years. There was a time when you could be executed for stealing a horse, now there are places where you can't be executed for anything. God doesn't change like that.