Rational discourse on gun control

[Rustic]

For the left, they want nothing less than this. . .

Why It's Time to Repeal the Second Amendment



Look what globalist Soros is up too. . .

Sign the petition: Repeal the Second Amendment Now

It's unbelievable that folks would be so conditioned by his machinations that they can't think for themselves, it really is.

That man should be pistol whipped into to a coma...

 

[Divine Wind]

The second amendment is being abused. And as a result, it's causing a menace to the general populace. We NEED firearms to protect us from other people WITH firearms. Right. If this were children fighting over a toy, you would take it away from all of them .You wouldn't let children abuse something they don't need and whine about how "the other kid has IT, we need one TOO" childish games. You take away their toys.

What, in your opinion, is the purpose of the Second Amendment? Why do we even have a Bill of Rights?

Well, things change. We aren't using flintlocks anymore. And what do you think Jefferson & co, would have done if there were assault rifles and mass murders of pre school children in 1776? Things might be a little different.

at the time of the drafting of the 2nd Amendment

there was for the time several versions

of advanced weapons or "assault" rifles

the Girardoni being among one of them

it was a repeating military rifle

and was in military service at the time

capable of shooting 22 rounds a minute

knowing this

the framers did not write

the "right to keep and bear arms except for the Girardoni"

so that flintlock angle is just a fallacy of the historically misinformed

A interesting and valid bit of history.

Op-Ed: Thomas Jefferson’s “Assault Rifle” – The Girardoni Air Rifle | Buckeye Firearms Association

 

[Rustic]

For those of you who seek additional restrictions on the 2nd Amendment rights of the law abiding, I challenge you to a rational discourse on the issue.

To this end, please...
1: State the gun control law you seek (You probably should limit this to just one)
2: Define the problem you seek to correct with this law
3: Demonstrate that this law will indeed correct the problem you define.
4: Explain how, under current jurisprudence, this law does not create an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms
5: Do not resort to fallacious appeals to emotion, ignorance and/or dishonesty (Fallacies, after all, are irrational)

Please begin

1. The ban on the sale, manufacture, importation, distribution and possession of weapons with a semi-automatic firing system and the ability to be fitted with a magazine containing greater than ten rounds.

2. Drive by shootings, mass shootings. At least let's lower the body count.

3. Criminals are not going to mass produce their own arsenal of such weaponry. Criminals are not going to convert other weapons to serve their purpose. Gang shootings, inner city shootings particularly will be reduced.

4. Your right to bear arms would not be infringed. You can still own all the bolt action rifles, shot guns and revolvers you want. You can still bear arms.

Now, I know that gun lovers will disagree. But what gun lover actually needs a semi-automatic weapon?

Foolish little mind...
You live in a bubble

 

[Divine Wind]

I'm not sure voting and having a background check when purchasing an optional firearm are the same thing. I have nothing against voter ID as long as it is reasonably inexpensive. I believe around here a background check costs less than a birth certificate in many states.

Conservative65 makes a valid point. Yes, it's related because it's related to Constitutional rights even the unenumerated right to vote and the enumerated right to self-defense.

 

[Divine Wind]

What background check will the criminal that stole my gun go through?

The LW argument would be to charge you for letting your gun be stolen.

 

[Rustic]

Universal background checks anytime a gun is transferred (excepting close family members or lending a gun for a short time to a friend). This would not violate any law abiding citizen's right to bear arms. Too many guns are being transferred without proper caution to people who should not have one, either at gun shows or through casual sales. There are gun stores everywhere that can, for a small fee, run a background check for anyone interested in buying a gun. This will not be a problem for law abiding citizens.

While I am 100% pro-gun ownership, I don't agree with the stance that you shouldn't do a background check on close relatives receiving your guns, or giving your friend a gun temporarily. There have been instances where friends have borrowed guns, committed crimes with them and returned them to the owner. Close relatives may also have a mental illness or criminal past and if they are in line to inherit the weapons, they need to be checked out to ensure they are not someone who would not otherwise be eligible for one.

Too hell with that...

 

[OldLady]

I'm not sure voting and having a background check when purchasing an optional firearm are the same thing. I have nothing against voter ID as long as it is reasonably inexpensive. I believe around here a background check costs less than a birth certificate in many states.

Conservative65 makes a valid point. Yes, it's related because it's related to Constitutional rights even the unenumerated right to vote and the enumerated right to self-defense.

I understand the relationship as Constitutional rights, but the "arms" people are allowed to bear have always cost $. Even when the Constitution was written.

 

[Divine Wind]

How could it be a "tax" if it were free? I would be 100% behind such a suggestion. I have nothing against Voter ID. However, households living in real poverty and on welfare benefits can't free up $90 or $100; their budgets are too tight.

Conversely, jacking up the price of guns, permits and other LW legal hoops deprives those poor families of the right to both bear arms and to self-defense. They're totally at the mercy of illegally armed gang-bangers and an underfunded, slow-to-respond police force.

As for vote ID, to avoid it being a backdoor poll tax, all voter registration cards should have a picture. With digital technology, it should be both cheap and fast.....and the cost borne by American taxpayers.

 

[Divine Wind]

I understand the relationship as Constitutional rights, but the "arms" people are allowed to bear have always cost $. Even when the Constitution was written.

Agreed, but the Left is seeking to artificially drive up the price of arms and arms ownership as a means to deprive poor people from owning them.

 

[Rustic]

“Rational discourse on gun control”

…requires that participants in such a discourse acknowledge the settled and accepted fact – a fact of law beyond dispute – that, although inalienable, the Second Amendment right is not ‘unlimited,’ and subject to reasonable restrictions by government.

Unfortunately, there are irrational extremists who refuse to acknowledge this settled, accepted fact of law, rendering any hope of rational discourse impossible and pointless.

Getting along is overrated

 

[jon_berzerk]

The second amendment is being abused. And as a result, it's causing a menace to the general populace. We NEED firearms to protect us from other people WITH firearms. Right. If this were children fighting over a toy, you would take it away from all of them .You wouldn't let children abuse something they don't need and whine about how "the other kid has IT, we need one TOO" childish games. You take away their toys.

What, in your opinion, is the purpose of the Second Amendment? Why do we even have a Bill of Rights?

Well, things change. We aren't using flintlocks anymore. And what do you think Jefferson & co, would have done if there were assault rifles and mass murders of pre school children in 1776? Things might be a little different.

at the time of the drafting of the 2nd Amendment

there was for the time several versions

of advanced weapons or "assault" rifles

the Girardoni being among one of them

it was a repeating military rifle

and was in military service at the time

capable of shooting 22 rounds a minute

knowing this

the framers did not write

the "right to keep and bear arms except for the Girardoni"

so that flintlock angle is just a fallacy of the historically misinformed

A interesting and valid bit of history.

Op-Ed: Thomas Jefferson’s “Assault Rifle” – The Girardoni Air Rifle | Buckeye Firearms Association

thanks for the link

Meriwether Lewis had one during the Corps of Discovery Expedition

it was one of the first things he demonstrated upon meeting new Indian tribes

currently his rifle is located at the Smithsonian institution

this type of rifle was an important advancement in rifles

 

[OldLady]

What background check will the criminal that stole my gun go through?

The LW argument would be to charge you for letting your gun be stolen.

This LW's argument is to report it stolen to the authorities and be absolved of any further liability.

 

[Divine Wind]

Considering how impossible it has been for the federal government to pass any gun control legislation, even after Sandy Hook, I don't understand why you folks are so concerned about that.

Because the authoritarian, anti-gun Left keeps revisiting the issue just like the authoritarian anti-gay/anti-abortion Right keeps revisiting their issues. Both keep trying to chip away at their favorite issue(s).

 

[Divine Wind]

This LW's argument is to report it stolen to the authorities and be absolved of any further liability.

Your argument maybe, but I do not trust the authoritarian Left anymore than I trust authoritarians of any other stripe.

 

[OldLady]

How could it be a "tax" if it were free? I would be 100% behind such a suggestion. I have nothing against Voter ID. However, households living in real poverty and on welfare benefits can't free up $90 or $100; their budgets are too tight.

Conversely, jacking up the price of guns, permits and other LW legal hoops deprives those poor families of the right to both bear arms and to self-defense. They're totally at the mercy of illegally armed gang-bangers and an underfunded, slow-to-respond police force.

As for vote ID, to avoid it being a backdoor poll tax, all voter registration cards should have a picture. With digital technology, it should be both cheap and fast.....and the cost borne by American taxpayers.

We are talking about a perhaps $20 fee. If you want to give guns to poor people, I can't stand behind that.
I would be behind a voter ID like that. The larger cost seems to be getting the birth certificate or other documents you need in order to GET the ID.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Universal background checks anytime a gun is transferred (excepting close family members or lending a gun for a short time to a friend). This would not violate any law abiding citizen's right to bear arms. Too many guns are being transferred without proper caution to people who should not have one, either at gun shows or through casual sales. There are gun stores everywhere that can, for a small fee, run a background check for anyone interested in buying a gun. This will not be a problem for law abiding citizens.

Yet you still can't tell me what type of background check the person that stole my gun will go through for possessing that gun.

Until that criminal goes through a background check, expecting those of us that have never committed a crime to go through one so you can feel better is a problem. I'm not jumping through you damn hoops so you can say you did something to make yourself feel better.

It is to reduce the # of illegally owned guns on the street. Less sold to unvetted buyers, less to sell to a thug.

in the criminal world all buyers are unvetted

 

[Divine Wind]

We are talking about a perhaps $20 fee. If you want to give guns to poor people, I can't stand behind that.

Nice straw man. Okay, let's make voter ID mandatory and charge a $20 fee.

I never advocated giving anyone guns. I'm simply against people like you artificially jacking up the price of exercising an enumerated right out of pure nanny-statism.

 

[OldLady]

This LW's argument is to report it stolen to the authorities and be absolved of any further liability.

Your argument maybe, but I do not trust the authoritarian Left anymore than I trust authoritarians of any other stripe.

Then there is no sense in discussing it with you.

 

[jon_berzerk]

I'm not sure voting and having a background check when purchasing an optional firearm are the same thing. I have nothing against voter ID as long as it is reasonably inexpensive. I believe around here a background check costs less than a birth certificate in many states.

Conservative65 makes a valid point. Yes, it's related because it's related to Constitutional rights even the unenumerated right to vote and the enumerated right to self-defense.

I understand the relationship as Constitutional rights, but the "arms" people are allowed to bear have always cost $. Even when the Constitution was written.

that is one of the reasons those in the militia supplied their own arms

 

[OldLady]

Universal background checks anytime a gun is transferred (excepting close family members or lending a gun for a short time to a friend). This would not violate any law abiding citizen's right to bear arms. Too many guns are being transferred without proper caution to people who should not have one, either at gun shows or through casual sales. There are gun stores everywhere that can, for a small fee, run a background check for anyone interested in buying a gun. This will not be a problem for law abiding citizens.

Yet you still can't tell me what type of background check the person that stole my gun will go through for possessing that gun.

Until that criminal goes through a background check, expecting those of us that have never committed a crime to go through one so you can feel better is a problem. I'm not jumping through you damn hoops so you can say you did something to make yourself feel better.

It is to reduce the # of illegally owned guns on the street. Less sold to unvetted buyers, less to sell to a thug.

in the criminal world all buyers are unvetted

You guys are determined not to follow my argument. So be it. Typical gun thread.