CDZ redistribution of wealth

[ABikerSailor]

Taxes aren't "stealing wages", it is the country asking you to help pay for all the great things we have here, like roads, police, firefighters, etc. that you enjoy as a citizen of this great nation.

And yeah............corporations need to pay their fair share, because they use up more of the infrastructure than private citizens do.

 

[there4eyeM]

...and they profit asymmetrically from the effort and payments of the collectivity. "To whom much has been given, much shall be required.", to paraphrase a famous book.

 

[danielpalos]

Taxes aren't "stealing wages", it is the country asking you to help pay for all the great things we have here, like roads, police, firefighters, etc. that you enjoy as a citizen of this great nation.

And yeah............corporations need to pay their fair share, because they use up more of the infrastructure than private citizens do.

I agree that it is more about the efficiency of our economy that should be of concern for anyone wanting to promote the general welfare.

What about a general tax on Firms to fund unemployment compensation with the public sector making up any shortfalls, as they do now. It should be much simpler than our current regime and more market friendly as a result. In any case, do we really need our elected micromanaging a social potential social safety net that is more complicated than the concept of employment at will?

 

[danielpalos]

...and they profit asymmetrically from the effort and payments of the collectivity. "To whom much has been given, much shall be required.", to paraphrase a famous book.

I believe we should be more technical than that for this purpose and claim artificial Persons should have to fund unemployment compensation on an at-will basis for real Persons.

 

[auditor0007]

I don't know about the tiresome "socialism vs. capitalism" standbys, but it seems apparent that production (laborers) have created a vast amount of wealth that is inappropriately confiscated by firms. Wages should increase so that the source of the profits (laborers) are equitably compensated for their success and productivity.

Workers are everything and the source of all capital.

But damn those unions.

 

[there4eyeM]

'Labor' and 'Workers' have become such terms in themselves that they are difficult to use without calling up political implications we might want to avoid. The fact is, all interested parties must be represented in the marketplace, in all its aspects; business, public and employees. Government, also, in a justified regulatory manner.

 

[Andylusion]

Taxes aren't "stealing wages", it is the country asking you to help pay for all the great things we have here, like roads, police, firefighters, etc. that you enjoy as a citizen of this great nation.

And yeah............corporations need to pay their fair share, because they use up more of the infrastructure than private citizens do.

This is a tired and pathetic argument.

*IF*.........>>IF<< You only taxed the amount of money required to pay for ROADS, POLICE, and FIREFIGHTERS..... the amount of taxes required to pay for those things is a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of taxes we pay today.

Let's even add in, the justice system, courts and such. Still a itty bitty fraction. Let's add in sewers, and trash removal. Still very very small fraction of the taxes collected.

Turds..... are a necessary evil. They smell bad. They mess up whatever they touch. But if you don't have any turds, it's because you are dead.

So turds are still disgusting, but they are in fact necessary.

Taxing income, *IS* stealing wages. That's what they are. They are wrong, they are immoral, and they harm people. Yes, they are necessary. We have to have them, but that doesn't mean they are great and wonderful.

If the amount of taxes collected, was only enough to fund the important functions of government that benefit society, I wouldn't have a problem with them. I still think they are bad, but I would accept it.

That however, is not the case. MOST of the money collected in taxes today, is blown on stuff I do not support, do not agree with, and that does not make society better, or great.

 

[D Truth]

Roads...
They help businesses, fair enough. Yet they kill a lot of people too, especially the interstate highways.
Police...
They help the insurance scams, debt slavers, and the tax collector, but not much else. And yeah they kill people too.
Firefighters...
OK, you have a fair argument there. Still, volunteer firefighters are obviously more effective.

So, these taxes, they are blatant theft... but are they really a necessary evil?
Are people in general, that bad? So bad that they need a worse type of people to steal from them to make sure that a yet an even worse type of people "stay in power"?

 

[Andylusion]

The Federal Budget is $3.9 Trillion.

If you eliminate everything in the budget that benefits a specific group, at the expense of everyone else....

You would end up with about 30% of that, or about $1.2 Trillion.

Current tax revenue, is running an estimated $3.2 Trillion. Meaning, we could cut taxes by $2 Trillion, and still have money left over to pay down on our national debt.

AND when you calculate all non-income tax revenue, it accounts for roughly 22% of the total tax revenue, or $700 Billion. That means that only $500 Billion or so would be needed of income tax. We could easily have a flat income tax of just 5%, and generate far more than that.

Equally on the state level.

Ohio (where I live) has a budget of $33 Billion. But 15% goes to the things you just list, that benefit everyone and make society great. That means we could cut the budget to $5 Billion, and cover everything you listed.

The Ohio Sales tax, generates $12 Billion by itself. We could eliminate the corporate tax, estate tax, capital gains tax, and income tax completely, and still have money left over to cut the sales taxes by almost half, and still have a surplus of money.

On the local level.... Things are different. Which is why I am generally in favor of local control. Expenses at the city level, the largest expense isn't programs to give money stolen from hard working people, to those who have not earned it.

The largest is police, which benefits everyone.
Second is fire, which benefits everyone.
Third is judicial, which benefits everyone.

The vast majority of the budget all goes to things that benefit society as a whole, rather than the special select few at the expense of the rest.

So I'm good with that. And granted there are a few line items that are welfare related, but here's the kicker....... the city has been running a budget surplus for years, and the surplus revenue has been invested in to a 'rainy day' fund for ages. When you have hundreds of millions stored up in the bank, I am less likely to complain about welfare spending, within reason.

When you owe $18 Trillion in debt, which is more money than the entire country produces in a year, and you demand more taxes, while blowing trillions on welfare programs.... then yeah, it's just theft, and it's wrong.

 

[D Truth]

The largest is police, which benefits everyone.
Second is fire, which benefits everyone.
Third is judicial, which benefits everyone.

I disagree with the quoted portion.
How does the police benefit everyone? Seems they really only benefit the judicial. Granted there are very rare occurrences of individual officers rising to a hero status, though that is not necessarily because they are police, it is because they are heroic individuals.

Fire, granted, they do genuinely serve a good... especially the volunteer firemen, who are not compensated by extorted taxes.

Judicial?!? Now sir, you surely must be joking!


Actually, of all the items you mentioned...
Welfare probably serves the greatest good, in terms of numbers at least. Though there is this concept, called charity, which is vastly better suited for the purpose. I think maybe we agree on that?

 

[there4eyeM]

People must be cared for. That is the only truly important thing. It is, and should be recognized as, the raison d'etre for government and all human institutions. Agreed, that is best done by simple compassion and charity. Where and when it is not, it still must be done. If that involves government, so be it.
It is unfortunate that the word 'welfare' has taken on a pejorative nuance. We all fare well when all fare well. That is part of the connectedness of life and being human. To not feel that is to lack an important ingredient of humanity.

 

[RKMBrown]

People must be cared for. That is the only truly important thing. It is, and should be recognized as, the raison d'etre for government and all human institutions. Agreed, that is best done by simple compassion and charity. Where and when it is not, it still must be done. If that involves government, so be it.
It is unfortunate that the word 'welfare' has taken on a pejorative nuance. We all fare well when all fare well. That is part of the connectedness of life and being human. To not feel that is to lack an important ingredient of humanity.

wow

 

[Andylusion]

The largest is police, which benefits everyone.
Second is fire, which benefits everyone.
Third is judicial, which benefits everyone.

I disagree with the quoted portion.
How does the police benefit everyone? Seems they really only benefit the judicial. Granted there are very rare occurrences of individual officers rising to a hero status, though that is not necessarily because they are police, it is because they are heroic individuals.

Fire, granted, they do genuinely serve a good... especially the volunteer firemen, who are not compensated by extorted taxes.

Judicial?!? Now sir, you surely must be joking!


Actually, of all the items you mentioned...
Welfare probably serves the greatest good, in terms of numbers at least. Though there is this concept, called charity, which is vastly better suited for the purpose. I think maybe we agree on that?

Welfare allows criminals to remain criminals, and still survive. There is a reason why places with the largest welfare system, have the highest crime rates.

Of course police serve the greatest good to the greatest number of people. If you want to test that theory, let's remove all police, and see what happens.

Oh wait, we kind of already know. New York used to be the crime capital of the country. Then some crazy mayor decided to drastically increase police patrols, and shockingly crime went down.

Then there was Detroit. And because of declining income, policing was cut, and shockingly crime increased. Why this is a surprise to anyone, I don't know.

Yes, police is a benefit to everyone. Even the homeless benefit from police.

Yes, Judicial. Not joking. You have no idea what this country would be like, without a judicial system.

 

[Andylusion]

People must be cared for. That is the only truly important thing. It is, and should be recognized as, the raison d'etre for government and all human institutions. Agreed, that is best done by simple compassion and charity. Where and when it is not, it still must be done. If that involves government, so be it.
It is unfortunate that the word 'welfare' has taken on a pejorative nuance. We all fare well when all fare well. That is part of the connectedness of life and being human. To not feel that is to lack an important ingredient of humanity.

Government results in the very opposite of what you just talked about.

 

[D Truth]

The largest is police, which benefits everyone.
Second is fire, which benefits everyone.
Third is judicial, which benefits everyone.

I disagree with the quoted portion.
How does the police benefit everyone? Seems they really only benefit the judicial. Granted there are very rare occurrences of individual officers rising to a hero status, though that is not necessarily because they are police, it is because they are heroic individuals.

Fire, granted, they do genuinely serve a good... especially the volunteer firemen, who are not compensated by extorted taxes.

Judicial?!? Now sir, you surely must be joking!


Actually, of all the items you mentioned...
Welfare probably serves the greatest good, in terms of numbers at least. Though there is this concept, called charity, which is vastly better suited for the purpose. I think maybe we agree on that?

Welfare allows criminals to remain criminals, and still survive. There is a reason why places with the largest welfare system, have the highest crime rates.

Of course police serve the greatest good to the greatest number of people. If you want to test that theory, let's remove all police, and see what happens.

Oh wait, we kind of already know. New York used to be the crime capital of the country. Then some crazy mayor decided to drastically increase police patrols, and shockingly crime went down.

Then there was Detroit. And because of declining income, policing was cut, and shockingly crime increased. Why this is a surprise to anyone, I don't know.

Yes, police is a benefit to everyone. Even the homeless benefit from police.

Yes, Judicial. Not joking. You have no idea what this country would be like, without a judicial system.

Your assumption is that everyone is a criminal... why does that change when you add police?
Oh yeah, it doesn't, it just lets parasites enslave everyone. This assessment is by your own construct mind you.
Yes that assessment of humanity, all being criminal, is that a revealing to your own character?
My own thought is that people in general are decent enough.
Maybe that is the difference between you and I?

I have quite a good idea what it would be like with no judicial system, most of the time I'm able to live my life without even thinking about it. Of course, then come tax season, then I think... why am I submitting to this extortion?
You see, I'm not a coward. I've never had to call the police to resolve a problem I have.
Maybe that is the difference between you and I?

 

[ABikerSailor]

Why is it that conservatives are very much for having larger (and more militarized) police forces, yet they want smaller government?

Sorry, but you can't have one without the other.

 

[Geaux4it]

Why is it that conservatives are very much for having larger (and more militarized) police forces, yet they want smaller government?

Sorry, but you can't have one without the other.

We need larger police force because as of yet I can't patrol the streets and do it myself

Someone has to abate the left sanctioned crime in America

-Geaux

 

[ABikerSailor]

You DO realize that a larger police force is going to have to necessitate a larger government, right?

Or did that point fly over your pointed little head?

 

[Geaux4it]

You DO realize that a larger police force is going to have to necessitate a larger government, right?

Or did that point fly over your pointed little head?

Your jumping to a solution instead of addressing the problem

Its like in medicine. You don't want to mask the illness with drugs, but instead, get to the root cause of the disease

-Geaux

 

[there4eyeM]

Avarice; the root of the disease.