Religion in politics/schools

[Cold Fusion38]

Um is there a way to delete this thread?

 

[Cold Fusion38]

I just thought some were offended by this thread which was NOT my purpose for starting it.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Having a nativity scene, or a menorah, or whatever else is not the government pushing any specific religion on anyone... it is done to say to the constituents that they and their beliefs, especially when it is a widely celebrated holiday among those in the community, are respected or acknowledged

Things such as the 10 commandment statues/inscriptions (most of which have been there for well over a century) show that government, in part, recognizes and upholds the concepts in this forefather of modern law...

Stop getting your liberal panties in a wad over 'religious' things in the public eye...

It is separation of church and state... as in no government imposed religion... not that any and all references to anything religious be banned in the public eye

So you don't see the monuments of ONE religion as a sanction of that ONE religion? If they want to put up monuments that cover EVERY RELIGION IN THE WORLD then it would not be supporting ONE religion over ALL others.

You've obviously never heard of one of my all-time personal SCOTUS favorites, the Plastic Reindeer test.

In brief, there's nothing wrong with religious symbols as part of a broader general display. For example, for the holidays a creche alongside a menorah and a display of secular images like Santa Claus or Rudolph (ergo, the Plastic Reindeer) isn't establishing religion. A display of the Ten Commandments in with other representations of legal foundations (representations of the Roman Senate or certain Greek gods, for example) isn't establishment. It's merely a nod to the origin of the holiday or the laws or whatever. It's when religion is pushed, especially to a captive audience, that you run into problems. Or when political figures or groups try to subvert religion for their own agendas, which IMO is far more troubling.

Do you know the origin of Christmas? It is a coopted PAGAN festival.

 

[DiamondDave]

If recognition of the bad feelings that this thread has created I will remove it.

What bad feelings? I see logical discourse happening here, with no flaming (other than DiamondDave).
Rare for a tread such as this.

Well.. logical explanation to this guy was ignored as he continued his baseless rant... and as evidenced by the rants, an immature attitude (and ignorance) was displayed.. I will simply call it out and fire back against such posters... for if the shoe fits, they can wear it

 

[DiamondDave]

So you don't see the monuments of ONE religion as a sanction of that ONE religion? If they want to put up monuments that cover EVERY RELIGION IN THE WORLD then it would not be supporting ONE religion over ALL others.

You've obviously never heard of one of my all-time personal SCOTUS favorites, the Plastic Reindeer test.

In brief, there's nothing wrong with religious symbols as part of a broader general display. For example, for the holidays a creche alongside a menorah and a display of secular images like Santa Claus or Rudolph (ergo, the Plastic Reindeer) isn't establishing religion. A display of the Ten Commandments in with other representations of legal foundations (representations of the Roman Senate or certain Greek gods, for example) isn't establishment. It's merely a nod to the origin of the holiday or the laws or whatever. It's when religion is pushed, especially to a captive audience, that you run into problems. Or when political figures or groups try to subvert religion for their own agendas, which IMO is far more troubling.

Do you know the origin of Christmas? It is a coopted PAGAN festival.

And saints were a tool used to help polytheists feel more comfortable in the christian religion... but neither that nor your statement about the history of the date chosen for Christmas has any bearing on your original argument's premise

 

[Dis]

I really don't think you are getting the point Dis. I just want to know EXACLY how people can justify THEIR religion being the ONLY state sanctioned religion. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with MODERATES like my In-Laws but those who try to justify RELIGIOUS monuments in PUBLIC places don't understand what a truely disturbing idea it really is.

Do you *really* give two shits if there's religious statues in ANY building you walk in to? They jumping in your way so you can't get to where you're going, or something?

Seriously...

 

[Cold Fusion38]

If recognition of the bad feelings that this thread has created I will remove it.

What bad feelings? I see logical discourse happening here, with no flaming (other than DiamondDave).
Rare for a tread such as this.

Well.. logical explanation to this guy was ignored as he continued his baseless rant... and as evidenced by the rants, an immature attitude (and ignorance) was displayed.. I will simply call it out and fire back against such posters... for if the shoe fits, they can wear it

Actually I beleive it was YOU who started the juvinile name calling not me.

 

[Ringel05]

I just thought some were offended by this thread which was NOT my purpose for starting it.

You should have noticed by now that on almost every thread on this or any forum someone will be offended. That is their problem, they are the one's offended, i.e. the issue is with them, no one else. If they want to fix it all they have to do is look in the mirror.

 

[goldcatt]

So you don't see the monuments of ONE religion as a sanction of that ONE religion? If they want to put up monuments that cover EVERY RELIGION IN THE WORLD then it would not be supporting ONE religion over ALL others.

You've obviously never heard of one of my all-time personal SCOTUS favorites, the Plastic Reindeer test.

In brief, there's nothing wrong with religious symbols as part of a broader general display. For example, for the holidays a creche alongside a menorah and a display of secular images like Santa Claus or Rudolph (ergo, the Plastic Reindeer) isn't establishing religion. A display of the Ten Commandments in with other representations of legal foundations (representations of the Roman Senate or certain Greek gods, for example) isn't establishment. It's merely a nod to the origin of the holiday or the laws or whatever. It's when religion is pushed, especially to a captive audience, that you run into problems. Or when political figures or groups try to subvert religion for their own agendas, which IMO is far more troubling.

Do you know the origin of Christmas? It is a coopted PAGAN festival.

Of course it is, but that's not how it has been celebrated for about fifteen hundred years (if not more). Nor how it impacts us as a nation. A nod to the origins of the winter holidays as we, here in the the US, celebrate them is hardly "establishing" anything so long as it's not being rammed down everyone's throat. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I'm a huge proponent of separation of church and state and I can't see an issue with it myself. In fact, at that time of year I'm usually too busy to notice. It's all about context.

 

[DiamondDave]

What bad feelings? I see logical discourse happening here, with no flaming (other than DiamondDave).
Rare for a tread such as this.

Well.. logical explanation to this guy was ignored as he continued his baseless rant... and as evidenced by the rants, an immature attitude (and ignorance) was displayed.. I will simply call it out and fire back against such posters... for if the shoe fits, they can wear it

Actually I beleive it was YOU who started the juvinile name calling not me.

You were called out for writing like an immature and ignorant person with a lot of caffeine in your system... when countered with the logical explanations, you simply continued your capitalized, baseless rants...

As stated.. if the shoe fits, you can wear it

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Dis it DOES offend me because I see it as a barely concealed attempt to push Christianity on the rest of AMERICANS. Do you know where the God in the pledge of alegence came from. The Red sacre and McCarthisim.

 

[DiamondDave]

I just thought some were offended by this thread which was NOT my purpose for starting it.

You should have noticed by now that on almost every thread on this or any forum someone will be offended. That is their problem, they are the one's offended, i.e. the issue is with them, no one else. If they want to fix it all they have to do is look in the mirror.

Seemingly, the only person offended in this thread is the thread starter... which that feeling of being offended was the basis for the initial post.... and CF became more offended when shown the difference between separation of church and state, and banning any reference in 'the public eye' of anything symbolizing or acknowledging something that has a history tied to a religion

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Well like I said Dave you are the juvinile who started the name calling so if you want to back off of that then we can debate the issue. If you want to continue then I will just ignore you because I am not willing to stoop to your level again so knock yourself out.

 

[goldcatt]

God in the Pledge is a different story, in that you have a captive audience forced to speak the words. Although I haven't kept up on that one, so I'm not sure if students can still be forced to say it if they don't want to. In any case, again, context matters. A plastic baby Jesus isn't going to jump out and force you to convert, especially not when it's simply a piece of a larger display of holiday consumerism. Some balance is always necessary.

 

[Dis]

Dis it DOES offend me because I see it as a barely concealed attempt to push Christianity on the rest of AMERICANS. Do you know where the God in the pledge of alegence came from. The Red sacre and McCarthisim.

Really? How come I'm not the least bit religious in ANY manner, and I don't see it as an attempt to "push" shit on to me? When I own the building I'm walking in to, then I can decide how to decorate it.

What are you afraid of, exactly? Going to get cooties is you accidentally brush up against a statue of the Virgin Mary? Afraid she might turn you on?

 

[Ringel05]

Well.. logical explanation to this guy was ignored as he continued his baseless rant... and as evidenced by the rants, an immature attitude (and ignorance) was displayed.. I will simply call it out and fire back against such posters... for if the shoe fits, they can wear it

Actually I beleive it was YOU who started the juvinile name calling not me.

You were called out for writing like an immature and ignorant person with a lot of caffeine in your system... when countered with the logical explanations, you simply continued your capitalized, baseless rants...

As stated.. if the shoe fits, you can wear it

Yup, I've always found that is the best technique to "win friends and influence people", works every time.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

I just thought some were offended by this thread which was NOT my purpose for starting it.

You should have noticed by now that on almost every thread on this or any forum someone will be offended. That is their problem, they are the one's offended, i.e. the issue is with them, no one else. If they want to fix it all they have to do is look in the mirror.

Seemingly, the only person offended in this thread is the thread starter... which that feeling of being offended was the basis for the initial post.... and CF became more offended when shown the difference between separation of church and state, and banning any reference in 'the public eye' of anything symbolizing or acknowledging something that has a history tied to a religion

Wrong Dis posted a message that I thought indicated that she was offended so I offered to delete the thread in deferance to her and anyone else offended by it.


Can you delete your own thread?

 

[DiamondDave]

Dis it DOES offend me because I see it as a barely concealed attempt to push Christianity on the rest of AMERICANS. Do you know where the God in the pledge of alegence came from. The Red sacre and McCarthisim.

A sculpture depicting the 10 commandments or a public display acknowledging the christmas holiday is an attempt to have government push christianity on the 'rest of americans'... oh, that is too rich... utterly laughable...

If a community wishes to display a menorah for Hanukkah or a statue of Ganesh recognizing the beliefs and celebrations of constituents, or a statue depicting the code of Hammurabi, or whatever else, so be it... and none of these displays would be the government pushing or forcing the religion on citizens....

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Well I had jury duty and was told we would be sworn in. I asked the lady if I would be able to not say so help you God. She said I would be allowed to but during the swearing in I was NOT given the option of affirming rather then swearing to God. Not a huge big deal but it was anoying. Heck I even join in prayer at my in-laws out of respect for their home I just don't see why people seam to NEED their religion in public places.

 

[DiamondDave]

Actually I beleive it was YOU who started the juvinile name calling not me.

You were called out for writing like an immature and ignorant person with a lot of caffeine in your system... when countered with the logical explanations, you simply continued your capitalized, baseless rants...

As stated.. if the shoe fits, you can wear it

Yup, I've always found that is the best technique to "win friends and influence people", works every time.

I don't need to win any friends.. and as stated, when facts are displayed to a fanatical ranter, it generally does not sway their opinion anyway....