Religious people seem to have more bias in these debates.

[Blues Man]

I just think it doesn't matter how we got here and that what we do and how we comport ourselves while we are alive is what really matters.

Just because you are happy with the limitations/boundaries you have set for yourself does not mean they work for all. Some of us are more daring.

I have set no limitations.

I have done things I never dreamed I would have done in my life. Believing something without proof is hardly a great accomplishment as any child can do it..

 

[JGalt]

Religion is personal and those that are religious can't help but inject emotion into the debate. Many take any questioning of their religion or the god they believe in as a personal attack which is why religious discussions tend to devolve

The government is the lefts god. Which is why they are all so unhinged when things don’t go their way.

Like they say, "When someone has nothing to believe in, they'll believe anything."

so your only options are to believe in some god or believe in nothing?

In case you haven't heard, there is only one God.

28 Biblical Passages Which Explicitly Teach There is Only One God

That's your belief.

I mean the Bible is hardly a good source for that since the purpose of the bible is to promote a monotheistic religion.

Did Mohamed, Buddha, Krishna, the Flying Spagetti Monster, etc. ever raise anyone from the dead? Did they heal any sick people? Did they perform any miracles like feeding the multitude, changing water into wine, casting out unclean spirits, causing a storm to be stilled, walking on water, giving the blind sight and the dumb the ability to speak, or many of the other things He did? Were those other so-called "deities" so rejected and hated by the powers that were, that they were killed and rose from the dead after three days?

Was the birth, life, death and resurrection predicted of any of those other "gods" 1,000 years before they were born? The entire Old testament is a prophesy of the coming of the Christ, and those books were written way before the New Testament.

There is no proof any any of those things.

But I did once see a doctor bring a person back to life after his heart stopped for 3 minutes.

But tell me why don't Jews believe that OT came true?

Obviously not everyone believes what you do.

And Buddha never claimed to be anything but a mortal man so you really can't include him in your list of magical beings

Of course you see no proof to those things, silly. You've already said that you see no purpose in faith.

There is no good reason to believe in anything without evidence that it is true.

The Biblical definition of faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Can you see air, or gravity, or electricity? Of course not. But like faith, there is more than substantial evidence that they do exist.

Which isn't really any different than the dictionary definition.

With air I can observe it's physical properties and I can predict what the gases that comprise what we call air will do with great reliability.

Gravity can be measured and we know what causes the force of gravity and we can predict what exactly the force of gravity will be on other planets by calculating the mass of those planets.

We define electricity as the movement of electrons and we can once again predict the flow of those electrons through various substances.

And there is no faith required to believe any any of the above because we have centuries of evidence and untold numbers of experiments.

That's the Biblical definition, written long before anyone even though of a "dictionary."

 

[Blues Man]

There is no good reason to believe in anything without evidence that it is true.

Keep in mind, that is the same kind of reasoning behind why Columbus (and other sailors) should never have left land; why astronauts should not have gone into space. In your mind, staying with what is physical is where to settle. Many of us want to continue exploring that which is beyond the physical. Do you discourage other types of exploring?

The ancient Greeks figured out the earth was a sphere so people in Columbus's time knew that

Who figured out the Earth is round?

And the only reason astronauts made it to space was because we understood the physical world. People daring to try things has nothing to do with any mystical thing.

 

[Blues Man]

Religion is personal and those that are religious can't help but inject emotion into the debate. Many take any questioning of their religion or the god they believe in as a personal attack which is why religious discussions tend to devolve

The government is the lefts god. Which is why they are all so unhinged when things don’t go their way.

Like they say, "When someone has nothing to believe in, they'll believe anything."

so your only options are to believe in some god or believe in nothing?

In case you haven't heard, there is only one God.

28 Biblical Passages Which Explicitly Teach There is Only One God

That's your belief.

I mean the Bible is hardly a good source for that since the purpose of the bible is to promote a monotheistic religion.

Did Mohamed, Buddha, Krishna, the Flying Spagetti Monster, etc. ever raise anyone from the dead? Did they heal any sick people? Did they perform any miracles like feeding the multitude, changing water into wine, casting out unclean spirits, causing a storm to be stilled, walking on water, giving the blind sight and the dumb the ability to speak, or many of the other things He did? Were those other so-called "deities" so rejected and hated by the powers that were, that they were killed and rose from the dead after three days?

Was the birth, life, death and resurrection predicted of any of those other "gods" 1,000 years before they were born? The entire Old testament is a prophesy of the coming of the Christ, and those books were written way before the New Testament.

There is no proof any any of those things.

But I did once see a doctor bring a person back to life after his heart stopped for 3 minutes.

But tell me why don't Jews believe that OT came true?

Obviously not everyone believes what you do.

And Buddha never claimed to be anything but a mortal man so you really can't include him in your list of magical beings

Of course you see no proof to those things, silly. You've already said that you see no purpose in faith.

There is no good reason to believe in anything without evidence that it is true.

The Biblical definition of faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Can you see air, or gravity, or electricity? Of course not. But like faith, there is more than substantial evidence that they do exist.

Which isn't really any different than the dictionary definition.

With air I can observe it's physical properties and I can predict what the gases that comprise what we call air will do with great reliability.

Gravity can be measured and we know what causes the force of gravity and we can predict what exactly the force of gravity will be on other planets by calculating the mass of those planets.

We define electricity as the movement of electrons and we can once again predict the flow of those electrons through various substances.

And there is no faith required to believe any any of the above because we have centuries of evidence and untold numbers of experiments.

That's the Biblical definition, written long before anyone even though of a "dictionary."

You do know there had to be a language before the Bible was written don't you? And all languages have definitions of the words in that language

 

[Blues Man]

and right under that is belief not based on proof.

I understand. You are confined to what is physical.

There is no proof of anything else.

Your eyes is proof of god

No they are not.

My eyes are sensory organs that transmit electrical impulses to my visual cortex which my brain then interprets as light.

The eyes are perfect and science doesn't understand how

They aren't perfect

If they were then no one would need glasses.

 

[BreezeWood]

I'm sure the other side has its own bias too, but I think it's different. The difference is religious people seem to need their religion. If they were confronted with proof that their God isn't real I think a lot of them would be very broken on a spiritual and emotional level. Conversely I think if agnostics and atheists were confronted with proof that God is real it would have a different kind of impact. I think many atheists would be salty over being wrong, but I don't think it would destroy them in the same way. The purpose in their universe doesn't hinge on God in the same way. Personally, as an agnostic that was formally an atheist, I'd be thrilled to find out God really exists. It would simplify the universe and bring me a lot of comfort, which is probably what religion does for the religious.

Why does it matter? I think religious people, because they need this more, will bend and go to any length to avoid absorbing the kind of scrutiny that would make them question their God. They are by far the more desperate and stubborn ones in this debate. It's not about logic and facts for them. They need this, so you're never going to change their minds.

.

The difference is religious people seem to need their religion ...

.
the desert religions also give "the religious" an avenue for their political views they disguise through using fictitious gods, a messiah by christianity in substitution for the actual events and truths christian orthodoxy is in disagreement and wittingly obscures to promote their own political objectives without accreditation. the christian bible.

 

[Meriweather]

I have done things I never dreamed I would have done in my life. Believing something without proof is hardly a great accomplishment as any child can do it..

How many of your experiences can you offer proof? You have no experiences of God, which for some reason, has you convinced that no one else has had any experience either, doesn't matter how many tons of written material have been written about such experiences. You seem to be saying that everyone should base their own life on your conclusions, which are based on your own experiences...most of which you have no proof. I have faith in you Blues Man--but not that much faith. I will trust my own experiences.

 

[Meriweather]

The ancient Greeks figured out the earth was a sphere so people in Columbus's time knew that

Who figured out the Earth is round?
And the only reason astronauts made it to space was because we understood the physical world. People daring to try things has nothing to do with any mystical thing.

My point is that a sea voyage into the unknown is a risky business, and few take the risk. Same is true of space travel. Exploring the spiritual can also be risky and some prefer not to take that risk. Some people cannot get past, Why take the risk at all?

 

[buttercup]

Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.

I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying.

 

[buttercup]

I'm sure the other side has its own bias too, but I think it's different. The difference is religious people seem to need their religion. If they were confronted with proof that their God isn't real I think a lot of them would be very broken on a spiritual and emotional level. Conversely I think if agnostics and atheists were confronted with proof that God is real it would have a different kind of impact. I think many atheists would be salty over being wrong, but I don't think it would destroy them in the same way. The purpose in their universe doesn't hinge on God in the same way. Personally, as an agnostic that was formally an atheist, I'd be thrilled to find out God really exists. It would simplify the universe and bring me a lot of comfort, which is probably what religion does for the religious.

Why does it matter? I think religious people, because they need this more, will bend and go to any length to avoid absorbing the kind of scrutiny that would make them question their God. They are by far the more desperate and stubborn ones in this debate. It's not about logic and facts for them. They need this, so you're never going to change their minds.

I think that is a very common misconception. I don't believe because I "need" to believe. I actually didn't even set out to become a believer, and when it happened I was more shocked than anyone… because I was extremely unreligious, like some of you here are. It seems to never occur to atheists or agnostics that many believers believe because we have solid and compelling reasons to believe. I've always been a skeptical person. I'm like my dad in that way, he was an atheist all his life, until just shortly before he died. So I've never been the type of person to believe just because someone told me to, or for shallow or illogical reasons. Why would I, when I was actually fine with my life the way it was before? I liked being my own boss and living life the way I wanted to live it… So why would I become a believer unless I had life-changing, convincing reasons to believe?

You guys will never understand until it happens to you. There's no way you could understand, unless you go through it yourself. You'll see.

 

[occupied]

Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.

I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying.

The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.

 

[surada]

The ancient Greeks figured out the earth was a sphere so people in Columbus's time knew that

Who figured out the Earth is round?
And the only reason astronauts made it to space was because we understood the physical world. People daring to try things has nothing to do with any mystical thing.

My point is that a sea voyage into the unknown is a risky business, and few take the risk. Same is true of space travel. Exploring the spiritual can also be risky and some prefer not to take that risk. Some people cannot get past, Why take the risk at all?

FYI for fun....

Chinese cartography - China beat Columbus to it, perhaps ...

https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2006/01/

...
Jan 12, 2006 · An ancient map that strongly suggests Chinese seamen were first round the world ... Chinese cartography China beat Columbus to ... The Portuguese are aware of a world map drawn before …

 

[buttercup]

Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.

I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying.

The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.

You didn't get what I was saying. I don't know any Christians who became a believer out of fear of death. That makes no sense, because when you're an unbeliever you don't believe there is anything to fear. When you die, that's it, that's all there is, right? So why would you fear death as an unbeliever? And once you become a believer, there's no need to fear because you will be with God in heaven. So what you're saying makes no sense. The only people who I have heard fear death are lifelong unbelievers who are on their deathbed and then have a last-minute conversion, out of fear that they were wrong.

 

[surada]

Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.

I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying.

The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.

Maybe not. The ancient Egyptians were obsessed with the afterlife. Even the Natufians had burial rituals and Shamans.

 

[buttercup]

Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.

I am terrified of death. In a way I envy them for that comfort.

If your terrified of death then just believe

Which gods should I believe in? I'm value shopping. The Islamic gods don't give me carnal rewards like they do men so they're out.

It's always amazing to me when I hear atheists say that. And they say that a lot. First of all, I've never known anyone who said "I want to become a believer so I'm going to pick a god out of all the gods out there." I've heard tons of testimonies and I've never heard anyone say that, that is silly.

I know you weren't being serious, but for the sake of argument… If you were to pick a God, how hard is it to look at the various world religions, study and compare them and see for yourself which one is backed up with evidence and compelling reasons to believe? It's not that hard to do, if one is sincere about seeking the truth.

I'm sorry, but that "which god should I believe in out of all the gods out there?" line just sounds lame and intellectually lazy.

 

[occupied]

Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.

I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying.

The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.

Maybe not. The ancient Egyptians were obsessed with the afterlife. Even the Natufians had burial rituals and Shamans.

No one likes to think that when death comes everything just goes black and then you no longer exist. People who have made peace with that and live life like it's only one we will ever have are doing it right. Since the question of an afterlife is unknowable the question is all but meaningless. Best not to waste time worrying about it.

 

[buttercup]

I understand. You are confined to what is physical.

There is no proof of anything else.

I don't even know where to begin with that statement. In fact, I should get back to this another time, since it's 3:30 in the morning right now. But as unbelievable as this may sound to you, what is non-physical is actually more real than what is physical. Because what is physical is just temporary, what is non-physical is eternal.

 

[Penelope]

I believe the voice of God comes from within the mind.
----------------------------------------
The Minds of the Bible: Speculations on the Cultural Evolution of Human Consciousness - Kindle edition by Cohn, Rabbi James. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

I believe in Julian Jaynes "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"

 

[Blues Man]

I have done things I never dreamed I would have done in my life. Believing something without proof is hardly a great accomplishment as any child can do it..

How many of your experiences can you offer proof? You have no experiences of God, which for some reason, has you convinced that no one else has had any experience either, doesn't matter how many tons of written material have been written about such experiences. You seem to be saying that everyone should base their own life on your conclusions, which are based on your own experiences...most of which you have no proof. I have faith in you Blues Man--but not that much faith. I will trust my own experiences.

there is no scientific proof that any gods exist.

And here we go. I disagree with you and you now say I am telling you or anyone else how to live your life and by doing so you validate my very first post in this thread.

And what experiences have I ever said I had?

 

[Blues Man]

The ancient Greeks figured out the earth was a sphere so people in Columbus's time knew that

Who figured out the Earth is round?
And the only reason astronauts made it to space was because we understood the physical world. People daring to try things has nothing to do with any mystical thing.

My point is that a sea voyage into the unknown is a risky business, and few take the risk. Same is true of space travel. Exploring the spiritual can also be risky and some prefer not to take that risk. Some people cannot get past, Why take the risk at all?

and what does taking risks have to do with some invisible spirit?

People take risks for their own reasons most times they take those risks for some reward they see and desirable. It could be as simple as getting famous for being the first to do something, it could be for monetary gain or any combination of reasons.

There has been research on what makes a person a risk taker and there is a definite psychological profile.