Remembering Robert E. Lee: American Patriot and Southern Hero

[DriftingSand]

Most Southerners did not have a vote in secession. Slavery was THE issue. Stop lying and accept historical fact

No ... money was the issue. Slavery was a secondary issue because most folks weren't effected by it. Most southerners didn't have slaves nor did they see what it was like on the various plantations. Not only that ... some wealthy northerners had slaves. War always boils down to money, power, and control.

I realize that you, like so many other Americans, have been thoroughly brainwashed and programmed. It's the norm.

What's that have to do with the price of tea in China? Alexander Stephens and Robert E. Lee are two, completely different individuals. You are aware of that -- aren't you?

You said "No ... money was the issue. Slavery was a secondary issue..."

Slavery was the primary issue. The money tied up in slaves, and that they were in danger of losing the literal lifeblood of their economy ---> Because if slavery was threatened, so were they.

Slavery was the Cornerstone of the Southern Confederacy.

My point.

The idiocy about tariffs you hear Lost Causers go on about is a null one. If you want to say it was about money, you can, but you can't do it without saying it was about the money invested

In Slavery.

That isn't the reason Lincoln instigated the Ft Sumter event and then invaded VIrginia. He wanted to the idea of secession and convert the United States from a voluntary union of sovereign states to an empire of subjects. That's what the euphemism he coined "preserving the union" means. It meant eliminating states rights and the original principles the nation was founded on.

Giant power grab!!

 

[bripat9643]

It's only been said about ten thousand times now:

The North fought to save the Union.

The South fought to preserve, protect and expand slavery.

Jesus Christ. Stop being so dense.

"Save the union" is a Lincoln euphemism meaning to impose hegemony on the Southern states and mulct them with high tariffs.

 

[bripat9643]

No ... money was the issue. Slavery was a secondary issue because most folks weren't effected by it. Most southerners didn't have slaves nor did they see what it was like on the various plantations. Not only that ... some wealthy northerners had slaves. War always boils down to money, power, and control.

I realize that you, like so many other Americans, have been thoroughly brainwashed and programmed. It's the norm.

What's that have to do with the price of tea in China? Alexander Stephens and Robert E. Lee are two, completely different individuals. You are aware of that -- aren't you?

You said "No ... money was the issue. Slavery was a secondary issue..."

Slavery was the primary issue. The money tied up in slaves, and that they were in danger of losing the literal lifeblood of their economy ---> Because if slavery was threatened, so were they.

Slavery was the Cornerstone of the Southern Confederacy.

My point.

The idiocy about tariffs you hear Lost Causers go on about is a null one. If you want to say it was about money, you can, but you can't do it without saying it was about the money invested

In Slavery.

That isn't the reason Lincoln instigated the Ft Sumter event and then invaded VIrginia. He wanted to the idea of secession and convert the United States from a voluntary union of sovereign states to an empire of subjects. That's what the euphemism he coined "preserving the union" means. It meant eliminating states rights and the original principles the nation was founded on.

Giant power grab!!

Exactly. Lincoln wanted to destroy forever the notion that a state could secede or refuse to enforce laws passed by Congress.

 

[paperview]

Citing the White Nationalist DiLorenzo doesn't help your cause much, birdbrain.

 

[bripat9643]

Citing the White Nationalist DiLorenzo doesn't help your cause much, birdbrain.

"White nationalist?" ROFL! Making up insulting labels for their critics is the left's favorite substitute for an argument.

 

[paperview]

Most of the Southerners left well before the Morrill Tariff was even voted on -- and previous two tariffs -- were passed with Southern support. You ever look at the party divide in congress going back...for decades before that? Democrats and southern slaveholders were mostly always in the majority.

Hell, all the presidents elected (4 of them) from 1840 to 1850 were slaveowners!

The majority of the Supreme Court at the time were slaveholders, or came from slaveholding families.

In fact if you want to go back further -- for 50 of our first 64 years as a country, our president was a slaveholder! The majority of Cabinet members were slaveholders.

It all rested on balance of power - which changed with Lincoln's election, and the South could not abide by that, having grown used to owning it, owning people, and getting their way.

How about sharing with us how the federal government paid its bills? Furnish armies? (Mexican War anyone?) and you know, run? Knowing of course, there was no income tax. How again?

Tariffs were not an major issue when the Southerners broke - it was why the secession declarations - even South Carolina "Causes" - do not include it in their causes. It was slavery, and it's expansion.

The rebels knew how to read a map. And they knew how to count.

 

[reconmark]

Citing the White Nationalist DiLorenzo doesn't help your cause much, birdbrain.

Don't you understand "white nationalism" and the assorted lunacy is the basis of their entire argument???

 

[reconmark]

Those would be the poor white southerners, the idiots that were duped into a fool's errand.
I was referring to the so called southern aristocrats...

whose great grandchildren and great great grandchildren have an achievement gap?

I'll wait for an intelligent answer that I know is not possible

An intelligent answer is rarely given to a stupid question.
Do you need me to explain the achievement gap between white aristocratic cousin fuckers and poor white that stupidity went to war to maintain their false sense of racial superiority???

The simple answer (the answer that fits you best) is that those that can afford the best private educations, have the best political connections and the means to finance business will always have an achievement gap over the poor stupid bumpkins.
Next...

who is bitching about the achievement gap and expects who to fix it?

Who's bitching about the achievement gap???...obviously you, you brought it up in this thread.

Obama and the NAACP for starters and it's obvious you have an achievement gap

Obama and the NAACP have posted on this thread???...they made an issue of an "achievement gap"???

Not to call you a silly assed liar but please give that post number on this thread so that it can be reviewed.

 

[bripat9643]

Citing the White Nationalist DiLorenzo doesn't help your cause much, birdbrain.

Don't you understand "white nationalism" and the assorted lunacy is the basis of their entire argument???

"White nationalist" is just a smear by the Lincoln cult of anyone who criticizes their dogma. It's a substitute for logic and facts.

 

[paperview]

DiLorenzo and his associations and speeches before League of the South (a White nationalist, pro-secession Hate Group are well known.

Here's he's listed as one of their "affiliated scholars" here:

Southern Culture and History

It's not like this is any kind of secret.

 

[reconmark]

Citing the White Nationalist DiLorenzo doesn't help your cause much, birdbrain.

Don't you understand "white nationalism" and the assorted lunacy is the basis of their entire argument???

"White nationalist" is just a smear by the Lincoln cult of anyone who criticizes their dogma. It's a substitute for logic and facts.

So most sane people and organizations are attempting to smear the racist you are fellating???...go figure.

 

[bripat9643]

Most of the Southerners left well before the Morrill Tariff was even voted on -- and previous two tariffs -- were passed with Southern support.

The material I posted explains why tariffs were a major issue. Lincoln announced that he would use force to collect the Morrill tariff whether a state had seceded or not.

You ever look at the party divide in congress going back...for decades before that? Democrats and southern slaveholders were mostly always in the majority.

Hell, all the presidents elected (4 of them) from 1840 to 1850 were slaveowners!

The majority of the Supreme Court at the time were slaveholders, or came from slaveholding families.

In fact if you want to go back further -- for 50 of our first 64 years as a country, our president was a slaveholder! The majority of Cabinet members were slaveholders.

You're not helping your case with the above. You're hurting it by showing that the threat of abolishing slavery in the South wasn't a major issue.

It all rested on balance of power - which changed with Lincoln's election, and the South could not abide by that, having grown used to owning it, owning people, and getting their way.

Obviously, if people who want to impose policies that would impoverish gain control of the government, then that's a major threat to your welfare.

How about sharing with us how the federal government paid its bills? Furnish armies? (Mexican War anyone?) and you know, run? Knowing of course, there was no income tax. How again?

The Morrill tariff would have brought in almost twice the revenue the federal government needed to pay its bills. however, Lincoln and the Republicans wanted a vast expansion in the activities of the federal government, which is why they proposed the Morrill tariff in the first place.

Tariffs were not an major issue when the Southerners broke - it was why the secession declarations - even South Carolina "Causes" - do not include it in their causes. It was slavery, and it's expansion.

The rebels knew how to read a map. And they knew how to count.

Even if that were true, it doesn't justify Lincoln's invasion of Virginia.

 

[paperview]

You've been informed you when hostilities started.

You have also been shown all the forts and arsenals that were seized, well before Lincoln was inaugurated.

On December 27, Francis Pickens, the newly elected governor of South Carolina, demanded that Anderson return to Fort Moultrie. The major refused. Pickens also ordered the state militia to occupy Fort Moultrie, Castle Pinckney and the U.S. Arsenal, all of which occurred without incident. Then, South Carolina forces began building defensive works around the harbor. Some were directed at Fort Sumter, others on Morris and Sullivan’s Islands were directed to fire into the shipping channels. On James Island, the long-abandoned Fort Johnson was occupied and guns mounted. Simultaneously, inside Fort Sumter, Anderson’s command, aided by three Army Corps of Engineer officers and 40 civilian employees, began mounting cannon and improving the fort’s defenses. Meanwhile, in Washington, D.C., President James Buchanan’s response to the growing crisis was to send the civilian ship, Star of the West, with troops and supplies to Fort Sumter. Citadel cadets assigned to a battery on Morris Island and troops at Fort Moultrie fired upon the ship on January 9, and it turned back without accomplishing its mission.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The Problem in Charleston Harbor
=============================================
=============================================

"CHARLESTON, S.C. --- Gray-clad cadets from South Carolina's historic military college fired cannons Saturday on a barren, wind-swept island on Charleston Harbor to re-enact the 150th anniversary of a key episode leading up to the Civil War.

The event recalled what some consider the first shots of the war -- the 1861 firing on the steamship Star of the West that was trying to reach Fort Sumter with supplies and 200 federal troops. Cadets manning a battery on Morris Island hit the ship and forced it to turn back.
...
The incident is ingrained in the history of the military college, founded in 1842. The Citadel's regimental colors carry eight Confederate battle ribbons.

The best drilled Citadel cadet still receives the Star of the West Medal each spring. It incorporates wood from the historic vessel."

Citadel cadets re-enact first shots of Civil War The Augusta Chronicle


You can deny it as insignificant, and say war was not a foregone conclusion, (it was) -- but that January 1861 incident was recognized by all involved at the time as an important milestone and a full-on escalation of the dispute over Federal installations and most certainly the gasoline that was being tossed by the Southerners to ignite the fire of war.

Before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

And if you really want to get picky in some of those January events....

Barrancas: The First Shots Fired in the Rebellion

"The firing on Fort Sumter in Charleston's harbor traditionally marks the opening salvos of the Rebellion. But before this assault on April 14, 1861, there was another battle—the first shots of the Civil War—hundreds of miles to the south in Florida.

On Jan. 8, 1861, United States Army guards repelled a group of men intending to take Fort Barrancas in Pensacola Harbor. Historians say that this event could be considered the first shots fired on Union forces in the Civil War.

Military History Online - Fort Barrancas


Tell us again about "The War of Northern Aggression."

Gowan.

 

[bripat9643]

DiLorenzo and his associations and speeches before League of the South (a White nationalist, pro-secession Hate Group are well known.

Here's he's listed as one of their "affiliated scholars" here:

Southern Culture and History

It's not like this is any kind of secret.

You're spouting Southern Poverty Law Center propaganda. Calling the League of the South a "hate group" is absurd, and the term "white nationalist" is applied by followers of the Lincoln cult to anyone who questions their dogma. According to diLorenzo:

"Just what – or who – is it that the League of the South hates so much that the SPLC would use language that compares it to some kind of criminal or terrorist organization? The answer to this question is easy to discern, for the League of the South neither pulls its punches nor hides its views on its Web site. What it hates the most is "the American Empire." In its "Declaration of Southern Cultural Independence," addressed "To Spineless Politicians," the League urges "all Southerners to abjure the realm of the American Empire that now threatens the liberties of our families and communities." In other words, they agree with the great late nineteenth/early twentieth century libertarian sociologist from Yale University, William Graham Sumner, that the transformation of America from a constitutional republic devoted to protecting liberty to an empire has been a disaster. Sumner stated his views in a famous essay entitled "The Conquest of the United States by Spain" in which he argued that the U.S. became like Spain – or more precisely, like the Spanish Empire – after the Spanish-American War. Sumner understood the ancient truth that the primary role for average citizens in an empire was to serve as tax slaves and cannon fodder for the ruling class. So do the people at the League of the South, judging by the writings on its Web site."​

DiLorenzo lectured some summer seminar students about nineteenth century economic policy at the invitation of Professors Donald Livingston of Emory University and Clyde Wilson of the University of South Carolina over a decade ago under the auspices of the League of the South Institute. That's the only affiliation he has.

In short, you're engaging in typical leftwing smear of someone who criticizes the left. That is to terribly predictable and sleazy.

 

[bripat9643]

You've been informed you when hostilities started.

You have also been shown all the forts and arsenals that were seized, well before Lincoln was inaugurated.

On December 27, Francis Pickens, the newly elected governor of South Carolina, demanded that Anderson return to Fort Moultrie. The major refused. Pickens also ordered the state militia to occupy Fort Moultrie, Castle Pinckney and the U.S. Arsenal, all of which occurred without incident. Then, South Carolina forces began building defensive works around the harbor. Some were directed at Fort Sumter, others on Morris and Sullivan’s Islands were directed to fire into the shipping channels. On James Island, the long-abandoned Fort Johnson was occupied and guns mounted. Simultaneously, inside Fort Sumter, Anderson’s command, aided by three Army Corps of Engineer officers and 40 civilian employees, began mounting cannon and improving the fort’s defenses. Meanwhile, in Washington, D.C., President James Buchanan’s response to the growing crisis was to send the civilian ship, Star of the West, with troops and supplies to Fort Sumter. Citadel cadets assigned to a battery on Morris Island and troops at Fort Moultrie fired upon the ship on January 9, and it turned back without accomplishing its mission.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The Problem in Charleston Harbor
=============================================
=============================================

"CHARLESTON, S.C. --- Gray-clad cadets from South Carolina's historic military college fired cannons Saturday on a barren, wind-swept island on Charleston Harbor to re-enact the 150th anniversary of a key episode leading up to the Civil War.

The event recalled what some consider the first shots of the war -- the 1861 firing on the steamship Star of the West that was trying to reach Fort Sumter with supplies and 200 federal troops. Cadets manning a battery on Morris Island hit the ship and forced it to turn back.
...
The incident is ingrained in the history of the military college, founded in 1842. The Citadel's regimental colors carry eight Confederate battle ribbons.

The best drilled Citadel cadet still receives the Star of the West Medal each spring. It incorporates wood from the historic vessel."

Citadel cadets re-enact first shots of Civil War The Augusta Chronicle


You can deny it as insignificant, and say war was not a foregone conclusion, (it was) -- but that January 1861 incident was recognized by all involved at the time as an important milestone and a full-on escalation of the dispute over Federal installations and most certainly the gasoline that was being tossed by the Southerners to ignite the fire of war.

Before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

And if you really want to get picky in some of those January events....

Barrancas: The First Shots Fired in the Rebellion

"The firing on Fort Sumter in Charleston's harbor traditionally marks the opening salvos of the Rebellion. But before this assault on April 14, 1861, there was another battle—the first shots of the Civil War—hundreds of miles to the south in Florida.

On Jan. 8, 1861, United States Army guards repelled a group of men intending to take Fort Barrancas in Pensacola Harbor. Historians say that this event could be considered the first shots fired on Union forces in the Civil War.

Military History Online - Fort Barrancas


Tell us again about "The War of Northern Aggression."

Gowan.

Recounting the same events over and over again doesn't strengthen your case. Sovereign nations have a right to evict trespassers, and all union troops in the South became trespassers the minute the Southern states seceded. Wasn't it you who admitted that no military base in a foreign country can ever be permanent?

 

[bripat9643]

Citing the White Nationalist DiLorenzo doesn't help your cause much, birdbrain.

Don't you understand "white nationalism" and the assorted lunacy is the basis of their entire argument???

"White nationalist" is just a smear by the Lincoln cult of anyone who criticizes their dogma. It's a substitute for logic and facts.

So most sane people and organizations are attempting to smear the racist you are fellating???...go figure.

You're obviously not a sane person. You're a neurotic who feels threatened by anyone who criticizes all the foolish dogma you believe.

 

[bripat9643]

Citing the White Nationalist DiLorenzo doesn't help your cause much, birdbrain.

Don't you understand "white nationalism" and the assorted lunacy is the basis of their entire argument???

There's no such thing as "white nationalism," shit-for-brains.

 

[paperview]

You've been informed you when hostilities started.

You have also been shown all the forts and arsenals that were seized, well before Lincoln was inaugurated.

On December 27, Francis Pickens, the newly elected governor of South Carolina, demanded that Anderson return to Fort Moultrie. The major refused. Pickens also ordered the state militia to occupy Fort Moultrie, Castle Pinckney and the U.S. Arsenal, all of which occurred without incident. Then, South Carolina forces began building defensive works around the harbor. Some were directed at Fort Sumter, others on Morris and Sullivan’s Islands were directed to fire into the shipping channels. On James Island, the long-abandoned Fort Johnson was occupied and guns mounted. Simultaneously, inside Fort Sumter, Anderson’s command, aided by three Army Corps of Engineer officers and 40 civilian employees, began mounting cannon and improving the fort’s defenses. Meanwhile, in Washington, D.C., President James Buchanan’s response to the growing crisis was to send the civilian ship, Star of the West, with troops and supplies to Fort Sumter. Citadel cadets assigned to a battery on Morris Island and troops at Fort Moultrie fired upon the ship on January 9, and it turned back without accomplishing its mission.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The Problem in Charleston Harbor
=============================================
=============================================

"CHARLESTON, S.C. --- Gray-clad cadets from South Carolina's historic military college fired cannons Saturday on a barren, wind-swept island on Charleston Harbor to re-enact the 150th anniversary of a key episode leading up to the Civil War.

The event recalled what some consider the first shots of the war -- the 1861 firing on the steamship Star of the West that was trying to reach Fort Sumter with supplies and 200 federal troops. Cadets manning a battery on Morris Island hit the ship and forced it to turn back.
...
The incident is ingrained in the history of the military college, founded in 1842. The Citadel's regimental colors carry eight Confederate battle ribbons.

The best drilled Citadel cadet still receives the Star of the West Medal each spring. It incorporates wood from the historic vessel."

Citadel cadets re-enact first shots of Civil War The Augusta Chronicle


You can deny it as insignificant, and say war was not a foregone conclusion, (it was) -- but that January 1861 incident was recognized by all involved at the time as an important milestone and a full-on escalation of the dispute over Federal installations and most certainly the gasoline that was being tossed by the Southerners to ignite the fire of war.

Before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

And if you really want to get picky in some of those January events....

Barrancas: The First Shots Fired in the Rebellion

"The firing on Fort Sumter in Charleston's harbor traditionally marks the opening salvos of the Rebellion. But before this assault on April 14, 1861, there was another battle—the first shots of the Civil War—hundreds of miles to the south in Florida.

On Jan. 8, 1861, United States Army guards repelled a group of men intending to take Fort Barrancas in Pensacola Harbor. Historians say that this event could be considered the first shots fired on Union forces in the Civil War.

Military History Online - Fort Barrancas


Tell us again about "The War of Northern Aggression."

Gowan.

Recounting the same events over and over again doesn't strengthen your case. Sovereign nations have a right to evict trespassers, and all union troops in the South became trespassers the minute the Southern states seceded. Wasn't it you who admitted that no military base in a foreign country can ever be permanent?

No, no, & no.

You lost, long ago.

Give up your crusade to defend people whose stated intent was a desire to continue to enslave millions of black human beings to be bought as sold as cattle and horses.

 

[bripat9643]

You've been informed you when hostilities started.

You have also been shown all the forts and arsenals that were seized, well before Lincoln was inaugurated.

On December 27, Francis Pickens, the newly elected governor of South Carolina, demanded that Anderson return to Fort Moultrie. The major refused. Pickens also ordered the state militia to occupy Fort Moultrie, Castle Pinckney and the U.S. Arsenal, all of which occurred without incident. Then, South Carolina forces began building defensive works around the harbor. Some were directed at Fort Sumter, others on Morris and Sullivan’s Islands were directed to fire into the shipping channels. On James Island, the long-abandoned Fort Johnson was occupied and guns mounted. Simultaneously, inside Fort Sumter, Anderson’s command, aided by three Army Corps of Engineer officers and 40 civilian employees, began mounting cannon and improving the fort’s defenses. Meanwhile, in Washington, D.C., President James Buchanan’s response to the growing crisis was to send the civilian ship, Star of the West, with troops and supplies to Fort Sumter. Citadel cadets assigned to a battery on Morris Island and troops at Fort Moultrie fired upon the ship on January 9, and it turned back without accomplishing its mission.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The Problem in Charleston Harbor
=============================================
=============================================

"CHARLESTON, S.C. --- Gray-clad cadets from South Carolina's historic military college fired cannons Saturday on a barren, wind-swept island on Charleston Harbor to re-enact the 150th anniversary of a key episode leading up to the Civil War.

The event recalled what some consider the first shots of the war -- the 1861 firing on the steamship Star of the West that was trying to reach Fort Sumter with supplies and 200 federal troops. Cadets manning a battery on Morris Island hit the ship and forced it to turn back.
...
The incident is ingrained in the history of the military college, founded in 1842. The Citadel's regimental colors carry eight Confederate battle ribbons.

The best drilled Citadel cadet still receives the Star of the West Medal each spring. It incorporates wood from the historic vessel."

Citadel cadets re-enact first shots of Civil War The Augusta Chronicle


You can deny it as insignificant, and say war was not a foregone conclusion, (it was) -- but that January 1861 incident was recognized by all involved at the time as an important milestone and a full-on escalation of the dispute over Federal installations and most certainly the gasoline that was being tossed by the Southerners to ignite the fire of war.

Before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

And if you really want to get picky in some of those January events....

Barrancas: The First Shots Fired in the Rebellion

"The firing on Fort Sumter in Charleston's harbor traditionally marks the opening salvos of the Rebellion. But before this assault on April 14, 1861, there was another battle—the first shots of the Civil War—hundreds of miles to the south in Florida.

On Jan. 8, 1861, United States Army guards repelled a group of men intending to take Fort Barrancas in Pensacola Harbor. Historians say that this event could be considered the first shots fired on Union forces in the Civil War.

Military History Online - Fort Barrancas


Tell us again about "The War of Northern Aggression."

Gowan.

Recounting the same events over and over again doesn't strengthen your case. Sovereign nations have a right to evict trespassers, and all union troops in the South became trespassers the minute the Southern states seceded. Wasn't it you who admitted that no military base in a foreign country can ever be permanent?

No, no, & no.

You lost, long ago.

Give up your crusade to defend people whose stated intent was a desire to continue to enslave millions of black human beings to be bought as sold as cattle and horses.

Declaring yourself the winner doesn't make you the winner. Most people learned that lesson when they were children.

Again, the sleazy insinuations of racism. If your "victory" was so obvious you wouldn't need to resort to such tactics

 

[Ravi]

In conclusion, Robert E. Lee was not an American patriot. I do agree he was a Southern hero because he believed, like the rest of the trolls in the south, that slavery was a big step up for Africans and was more harmful to the white owners than to the actual slaves.

In other words, one of the original RWNJs.