Remembering Robert E. Lee: American Patriot and Southern Hero

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

The hate for Lee is palpable.
Keep hearing he fought "against The US" or he committed "treason".

There was no US. It was (supposed to be ) still THESE United States.
THAT was what he was fighting for. Not slavery.

Ole Abe was the same sort of 'republican' so many of you accused Bush of being. But with Lincoln it wasn't "all about the oil", it was all about the tobacco, citrus and port cities. That, and more real estate to rule over.
He couldn't give two shits about slavery. His only concern was preserving his Union and damn anybody that stood in his way

The American Left is enormously stupid, that we all know, but when it comes to the war, their stupidity becomes punctuated. It's almost like discussing the war with 5th graders who only have general concepts about it, taught to them by teachers who are also ignorant.

Slavery was not a "South" thing. The entire country was profiting from it. Every slave ship was built and run out of New York and Boston harbors. Herr Lincoln Über Alles ran for president on a platform of doing NOTHING to stop slavery, and what they don't teach in government schools is that Lincoln himself was quite the racist.

Even Wikipedia got it right:

Lincoln soon controlled the border states, after arresting state legislators and suspending habeas corpus,[6] ignoring theruling of the Supreme Court's Chief Justice that such suspension was unconstitutional, and established a naval blockade that crippled the southern economy

American Civil War - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Exactly right. Lincoln was a tyrant and he deserved to get shot.

 

[hortysir]

It's racist to celebrate anyone who fought for slavery.

If you knew anything about history you would know Lee was against slavery.

Against it in a "I'm going to keep my slaves until I am forced to free them" kind of way.

Yes, he expressed a few sentiments against slavery, but still fought *for* the cause of defending, preserving, protecting and expanding slavery. There's no getting around that.

How many slaves did Lee own?

I'm not sure the exact count at this moment: These were willed to him, in 1858

"The Custis estate inventory records of 1858 list as assets, 93 slaves, 28 mules, 28 oxen, 73 sheep and 100 hogs at the White House in New Kent County;
43 slaves, 10 mules, 38 cattle, 44 sheep and 50 hogs at Romancoke in King William County. The inventory records list 62 slaves on the grounds of Arlington"


"When Custis died in 1857, Robert E. Lee—the executor of the estate—determined that the slave labor was necessary to improve Arlington's financial status. The Arlington slaves found Lee to be a more stringent taskmaster than his predacessor. Eleven slaves were “hired out” while others were sent to the Pamunkey River estates. In accordance with Custis's instructions, Lee officially freed the slaves on December 29, 1862."

Slavery at Arlington - Arlington House The Robert E. Lee Memorial U.S. National Park Service

Exactly. Good to see Google works for you.
He never bought a slave and only kept them as the conditions of the will allowed.
Nice editing how you left out how the slaves were treated at Arlington and how so many stayed after emancipation

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Without the Civil War, when would the south have abolished slavery - or even recognize blacks as human beings?

The North didn't recognize blacks as human beings. In fact, runaway slaves were hated and faced racism far worse than anything in Southern states. The original Jim Crow laws were passed in Indiana, Ohio, and Illinois to prevent blacks from finding work or settling there.

How can you people be so ignorant?

 

[paperview]

Southern plantation owners suckered poor white trash into fighting for slavery.

Why were no northern slaves freed by the Emancipation proclamation?

That Executive Order. [EO #95 to be exact) did have the effect of immediately freeing thousands of slaves.

It was also a brilliant tactical move in that at that point, it became a war about slavery for the Union, made it more difficult for England to recognize the Confederacy (no country had recognized the CSA), and gave major incentives for blacks to escape and fight for the Union,

announcing they would be accepted into the ranks of Army and Navy (by the end of the war, hundreds of thousands of Colored Troops fought for the Union)...

and it completely transformed the character of the war.

Great response.
Excellent way to not answer the question,tho

Way to be a dick about the energy I expended to give you a thoughtful reply.


Part of those thousands immediately freed I referred to included the Runaway slaves the North had been held as "Contraband." They were free at Midnight after the EP took effect.

 

[hortysir]

The hate for Lee is palpable.
Keep hearing he fought "against The US" or he committed "treason".

There was no US. It was (supposed to be ) still THESE United States.
THAT was what he was fighting for. Not slavery.

Ole Abe was the same sort of 'republican' so many of you accused Bush of being. But with Lincoln it wasn't "all about the oil", it was all about the tobacco, citrus and port cities. That, and more real estate to rule over.
He couldn't give two shits about slavery. His only concern was preserving his Union and damn anybody that stood in his way

The American Left is enormously stupid, that we all know, but when it comes to the war, their stupidity becomes punctuated. It's almost like discussing the war with 5th graders who only have general concepts about it, taught to them by teachers who are also ignorant.

Slavery was not a "South" thing. The entire country was profiting from it. Every slave ship was built and run out of New York and Boston harbors. Herr Lincoln Über Alles ran for president on a platform of doing NOTHING to stop slavery, and what they don't teach in government schools is that Lincoln himself was quite the racist.

Even Wikipedia got it right:

Lincoln soon controlled the border states, after arresting state legislators and suspending habeas corpus,[6] ignoring theruling of the Supreme Court's Chief Justice that such suspension was unconstitutional, and established a naval blockade that crippled the southern economy

American Civil War - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Exactly right. Lincoln was a tyrant and he deserved to get shot.

Lincoln also jailed journalists and congress members that spoke against his policies.
He even went so far as to draft an amendment that was worded in such a way that, not only would it allow slavery, it would've made it damned near impossible to ever make it illegal......all in an attempt to bribe the south into his Union. His own state of Illinois was the only state to ratify it before war broke out

 

[hortysir]

Southern plantation owners suckered poor white trash into fighting for slavery.

Why were no northern slaves freed by the Emancipation proclamation?

That Executive Order. [EO #95 to be exact) did have the effect of immediately freeing thousands of slaves.

It was also a brilliant tactical move in that at that point, it became a war about slavery for the Union, made it more difficult for England to recognize the Confederacy (no country had recognized the CSA), and gave major incentives for blacks to escape and fight for the Union,

announcing they would be accepted into the ranks of Army and Navy (by the end of the war, hundreds of thousands of Colored Troops fought for the Union)...

and it completely transformed the character of the war.

Great response.
Excellent way to not answer the question,tho

Way to be a dick about the energy I expended to give you a thoughtful reply.


Part of those thousands immediately freed I referred to included the Runaway slaves the North had been held as "Contraband." They were free at Midnight after the EP took effect.

"Runaway slaves" being southern slaves.
Apologies for my dickish response but all I'm seeing is linguistic gymnastics to avoid actually saying the words "only southern slaves were freed by the EP"

 

[paperview]

So much Lost Cause lunacy here. Even more than the normal lunacy.

I don't think I want to spend the MLK holiday arguing with Confederate slaver apologists.

Have a nice day, you White Supremacist fucknuts.

 

[Lakhota]

It is irrelevant how many slaves Lee owned, directly or indirectly, because he was leading the Confederacy's fight to preserve slavery - specifically the "economics" of slavery.

 

[paperview]

I'll leave with this:

Arlington Bobby Lee and the Peculiar Institution - The Atlantic

You're welcome.


And if anyone wants to hear an NPR "On Point" interview with James C. Cobb, distinguished Research Professor at the University of Georgia and author of “Away Down South: A History of Southern Identity.” His article, titled “How Did Robert E. Lee Become an Icon?” appears in the current issues of Humanities Magazine

-- here:

The Myth And Legend Of Robert E. Lee On Point with Tom Ashbrook

 

[hortysir]

So much Lost Cause lunacy here. Even more than the normal lunacy.

I don't think I want to spend the MLK holiday arguing with Confederate slaver apologist.

Have a nice day, you White Supremacist fucknuts.

Don't misunderstand, PPV....I am just as disgusted about the idea of slavery as anyone else. But I have enough sense to realize the it was very real and widely accepted for ages prior.
Glad we outgrew it.
I'm not going to put King Abe 1 on a throne any more than I'm going to condemn Lee, either

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Must say it is interesting that a man who took up arms against the US in the failed attempt to preserve slavery should even be mentioned as being honorable.

Maybe he should be honored for sending his men into a meat grinder at Gettysburg which resulted in the south losing the war for sure or at least shortened it by a long shot. But we usually don't honor failure. Most of Lee's engagement were defensive where the defense has a huge advantage, in that they didn't need to advance into gun fire. Gettysburg being a huge exception. Lee went on the offensive, huge mistake, gigantic error, and that lead to the defeat of the slave owners.

His biggest error was thinking his men invincible and they were not.

very important point. Giving lee any amount of time was a huge mistake, like what happened ay Cold Harbor. Getting Lee moving, he was dead.

Of course the sothrons had to be educated to appreciate lee's style of entrenching and berserker battles took some time. He didn't have command until the Seven days.

But Lee's casualties were horrible. Why Lee is venerated for killing sothron manhood wholesale and Sherman is detested for killing few men, but lots of chickens and pigs mystifies me

 

[paperview]

Oh, and one more thing:

Thank you President Lincoln. Our Country hails you.




You helped keep our Union together, and were it not for your work to make that happen,

none of us would be here today, in the most wonderful, powerful country in the world!

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Oh, and one more thing:

Thank you President Lincoln. Our Country hails you.




You helped keep our Union together, and were it not for your work to make that happen,

none of us would be here today, in the most wonderful, powerful country in the world!

Ah, a little sycophancy mixed with logical fallacy. Nice work!

 

[hortysir]

Oh, and one more thing:

Thank you President Lincoln. Our Country hails you.




You helped keep our Union together, and were it not for your work to make that happen,

none of us would be here today, in the most wonderful, powerful country in the world!

Have you ever been there?

You should really read his own words etched in marble

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Once a companionship goes from voluntary to forced, it seizes as being a union and has become something else entirely.

 

[paperview]

 

[JakeStarkey]

Wuckfit slavery apologia from the far right reactionary revisionist does indicate why we can let those nitwits have political power. They have lost most of what they won four years ago, and the GOP is talking away the remainder.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Must say it is interesting that a man who took up arms against the US in the failed attempt to preserve slavery should even be mentioned as being honorable.

Maybe he should be honored for sending his men into a meat grinder at Gettysburg which resulted in the south losing the war for sure or at least shortened it by a long shot. But we usually don't honor failure. Most of Lee's engagement were defensive where the defense has a huge advantage, in that they didn't need to advance into gun fire. Gettysburg being a huge exception. Lee went on the offensive, huge mistake, gigantic error, and that lead to the defeat of the slave owners.

His biggest error was thinking his men invincible and they were not.

He made many errors.

His biggest error was not seizing Washington immediately.

That could have been done in the first six months.

Once the Union got organized, there was no way for a Southern victory.

And using his armies like Chinese in the human wave assault at Gettysburg known as Pickett's Charge was criminally insane.

He went into a major engagement without the use of his Calvary which was his big advantage in most of his engagements.

If Grant would have been Meade at Gettysburg the war might have ended right then and there. Or at least Lee's army would have been completely destroyed.

Though not as famous, Grant's victory at Vicksburg was more important to the Union cause.

It was all over once the Union gunboats could roam at will.

Which is true. Controlling the Mississippi meant cutting off supplies to the south from the west.

Control of the Tennessee system was vital to the North too.

Note, the war on the land was not won until after the war on the inland waterways was won.

Grant knew this from Day One.

The coordination between the Union Navy and Army was amazing, considering the methods of communication.

personalities mater. Grant and Porter got along like a house afire.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Wuckfit slavery apologia from the far right reactionary revisionist does indicate the problem we have with race today.

Almost intelligible! Nice work!

 

[Baruch Menachem]

No US holiday for a man that really could have been justly prosecuted for Treason.

No he couldn't have been prosecuted for treason. Don't you think those Yankee carpetbaggers would have done so if they thought they could win?

That was the terms of the surrender. Lincoln and Grant wanted the war over. Done. If it hadn't been part of the surrender, it could have been. And Lee fully expected it.