Republicans are afraid to propose spending cuts!

[Jarhead]

Cool. Then scratching the 3 home payments, let's go back to the original query:

If you had money to invest, where would you and why?

Answer, to make money where you're more confident in the result than your desire to retain the money. I think I'll make X on my Y. Simple as that. But X has to be an opportunity, or you keep your Y safe and sound. None too complicated.

And taxes have next to nothing to do with it, nay, zip in your consideration. You know going in that $5 grand in ROI won't be taxed, much, if at all, but you'd be giddy if you made $500 grand, even knowing full well it will be taxed. And the reason is we have a progressive tax, so that at no point does gross result in diminished net. Make more, get more, which has a very strong appeal, and always has.

your theory neglects to take into consideration tax deferred opportunities nor does it take into consideration long term mutual fund investments.

Taxes have everything to do with it. If my ROI is going to be 10% less than it would be with a different tax law, I would take that into consideration.....

Correct. That's separate from making money, which we all like, and would like more of.

And if you can force yourself to save, and have it come out pre-tax (higher net paycheck), that's a good plan, sort of, assuming you take the gains / pre-tax investment when you're retired or unemployed, and thus it will be taxed at a lower rate since it's realized when your earnings are lower ... hopefully.

Back to the making money part: we all like it. Give me a raise, and I'll shake my boss' hand. Earn me more from Capital, and I'll brag to the neighbor. None too compplicated, in what motivates work or investment: desire to make dough.

I think we are looking at two completely environments.

My debate position is taking into consideration the current economic climate. We are barely in a recovery...teetering on a recession....but most definitely coming off a recession.

WHereas, I am now retired...my thinking right now would not be about "making money" for my pocket. It will be about...at best....paying off any debt iuncurred duiring the recession; paying back my vendors that allowed me to "slide" during the recession; and re-establishing myself in the marketplace.

My investing right now.....would be all about getting back to speed.

 

[Oldstyle]

Cool. Then scratching the 3 home payments, let's go back to the original query:

If you had money to invest, where would you and why?

Answer, to make money where you're more confident in the result than your desire to retain the money. I think I'll make X on my Y. Simple as that. But X has to be an opportunity, or you keep your Y safe and sound. None too complicated.

And taxes have next to nothing to do with it, nay, zip in your consideration. You know going in that $5 grand in ROI won't be taxed, much, if at all, but you'd be giddy if you made $500 grand, even knowing full well it will be taxed. And the reason is we have a progressive tax, so that at no point does gross result in diminished net. Make more, get more, which has a very strong appeal, and always has.

your theory neglects to take into consideration tax deferred opportunities nor does it take into consideration long term mutual fund investments.

Taxes have everything to do with it. If my ROI is going to be 10% less than it would be with a different tax law, I would take that into consideration.....

Correct. That's separate from making money, which we all like, and would like more of.

And if you can force yourself to save, and have it come out pre-tax (higher net paycheck), that's a good plan, sort of, assuming you take the gains / pre-tax investment when you're retired or unemployed, and thus it will be taxed at a lower rate since it's realized when your earnings are lower ... hopefully.

Back to the making money part: we all like it. Give me a raise, and I'll shake my boss' hand. Earn me more from Capital, and I'll brag to the neighbor. None too compplicated, in what motivates work or investment: desire to make dough.

Let me see if I can put this into SIMPLE terms so even you can understand...

If your Boss came to you and said he was going to give you a $5 an hour raise and a new position but the commute to your new job would cost you $250 a week in gas plus another five hours in drive time...would you shake his hand?

Of course not...because your bottom line has gone down...not up. That added cost of gas plus your time wasted makes your ROI less than the old job. Tax increases are one more thing that takes away from ROI...that detracts from the bottom line. When you do that you have less investment.

 

[Koios]

your theory neglects to take into consideration tax deferred opportunities nor does it take into consideration long term mutual fund investments.

Taxes have everything to do with it. If my ROI is going to be 10% less than it would be with a different tax law, I would take that into consideration.....

Correct. That's separate from making money, which we all like, and would like more of.

And if you can force yourself to save, and have it come out pre-tax (higher net paycheck), that's a good plan, sort of, assuming you take the gains / pre-tax investment when you're retired or unemployed, and thus it will be taxed at a lower rate since it's realized when your earnings are lower ... hopefully.

Back to the making money part: we all like it. Give me a raise, and I'll shake my boss' hand. Earn me more from Capital, and I'll brag to the neighbor. None too compplicated, in what motivates work or investment: desire to make dough.

Let me see if I can put this into SIMPLE terms so even you can understand...

If your Boss came to you and said he was going to give you a $5 an hour raise and a new position but the commute to your new job would cost you $250 a week in gas plus another five hours in drive time...would you shake his hand?

Of course not...because your bottom line has gone down...not up. That added cost of gas plus your time wasted makes your ROI less than the old job. Tax increases are one more thing that takes away from ROI...that detracts from the bottom line. When you do that you have less investment.

No. Because I do not make more dough.

Now then, given your senario, where does tax come into that decision?

 

[ilia25]

Actually...you are mistaken.

An owners personal income FROM his/her company IS his ROI.

You need to think like a business owner.

You need to remember, that he also owns his company. So an investment not only rises his future incomes, but also increases his wealth.

You are assuming that his investment has a return making it viable..

If that is not the case, then there is no point in making that investment whether the taxes are low or high. My point is that the taxes are pretty much irrelevant when you make an investment decision.

Also -- if he doesn't make an investment in expanding his business (which is deductible from his personal taxes), what would he do with those money?

Pretty much the same answer as abvove.

Mutual finds? And how much those are returning now? And ROI from those investments are taxed too -- and they should be taxed at the same rate, as any other personal income.

 

[Jarhead]

Cool. Then scratching the 3 home payments, let's go back to the original query:

If you had money to invest, where would you and why?

Answer, to make money where you're more confident in the result than your desire to retain the money. I think I'll make X on my Y. Simple as that. But X has to be an opportunity, or you keep your Y safe and sound. None too complicated.

And taxes have next to nothing to do with it, nay, zip in your consideration. You know going in that $5 grand in ROI won't be taxed, much, if at all, but you'd be giddy if you made $500 grand, even knowing full well it will be taxed. And the reason is we have a progressive tax, so that at no point does gross result in diminished net. Make more, get more, which has a very strong appeal, and always has.

and I am not scratching the 3 payments idea. You just didnt read what I wrote.
I am paying 13 this year.....that is legal...I have only paid 10 so far...but was never deemed behind on my mortgage.

Fine. Now answer my question, or don't. Squirming to dodge it was tried and failed.

I tired to enjoy this debate with you...but your attitude is way too childish for me. You simply want to be right...you dont want to engage in an hoinest debate.

One can not answer your question without a more definitive economic status/climate.

I would NEVER invest 1000 in an unknown on the heels of a recession.

FYI...I am all for tax hikes when the economic climate is one of prosperity. Business owners have a different mindset.

But to say to some guy....you barley made a living for the last 4 years...and now we are going to take even MORE of what you make now that you are starting to make money again...is counter productive.

You need to think like a business owner. They have not made a nice profit for 4 plus years.....why kick them when they are just starting to try to get up?

 

[saveliberty]

There are these things called tax brackets. Your rate might be 28% to $250,000, then 35% at 250,001. How bad do to you want that extra dollar. How many more do you need to make before your truly ahead?

 

[Oldstyle]

Cool. Then scratching the 3 home payments, let's go back to the original query:

If you had money to invest, where would you and why?

Answer, to make money where you're more confident in the result than your desire to retain the money. I think I'll make X on my Y. Simple as that. But X has to be an opportunity, or you keep your Y safe and sound. None too complicated.

And taxes have next to nothing to do with it, nay, zip in your consideration. You know going in that $5 grand in ROI won't be taxed, much, if at all, but you'd be giddy if you made $500 grand, even knowing full well it will be taxed. And the reason is we have a progressive tax, so that at no point does gross result in diminished net. Make more, get more, which has a very strong appeal, and always has.

How can taxes have next to nothing to do with it? Taxes are real. Taxes have to be paid. Those taxes have to come from somewhere.

If I'm deciding whether or not to pull the trigger on an investment that I won't see a return on for a number of years and major tax increases are being proposed then I "will" factor those potential tax increases into my calculations just as I would factor in any potential increases in energy costs, raw material costs, labor costs and on and on.

"Make more, get more..."? Could you be any more simplistic? OF COURSE MAKING 500 GRAND IS PREFERABLE TO MAKING 5!!! That doesn't mean that raising taxes is going to encourage anyone to invest.

Because they're a thing we hate, after. But the desire to get a raise, make a lucrative investment, or open a business we think's a winner, exists at every level of taxation, and always has.

Saying taxes are a barrier tofolks getting after an opportunity, is pure bullshit.

OMG...how can saying taxes are a barrier to investment be "bullshit"? Are you REALLY this dense? Why does Boeing build a plant in South Carolina rather than in Washington State or California? Why does Toyota and BMW build plants in Alabama and Georgia rather than Illinois and Michigan? The decision on where to build those plants is almost totally based on tax considerations and labor costs. If you can't understand basic economic principles like this then it's no wonder you don't think tax increases are going to affect investment.

 

[Koios]

and I am not scratching the 3 payments idea. You just didnt read what I wrote.
I am paying 13 this year.....that is legal...I have only paid 10 so far...but was never deemed behind on my mortgage.

Fine. Now answer my question, or don't. Squirming to dodge it was tried and failed.

I tired to enjoy this debate with you...but your attitude is way too childish for me. You simply want to be right...you dont want to engage in an hoinest debate.

One can not answer your question without a more definitive economic status/climate.

I would NEVER invest 1000 in an unknown on the heels of a recession.

FYI...I am all for tax hikes when the economic climate is one of prosperity. Business owners have a different mindset.

But to say to some guy....you barley made a living for the last 4 years...and now we are going to take even MORE of what you make now that you are starting to make money again...is counter productive.

You need to think like a business owner. They have not made a nice profit for 4 plus years.....why kick them when they are just starting to try to get up?

Great. What would you like; a gold star?

 

[Jarhead]

You need to remember, that he also owns his company. So an investment not only rises his future incomes, but also increases his wealth.

You are assuming that his investment has a return making it viable..

If that is not the case, then there is no point in making that investment whether the taxes are low or high. My point is that the taxes are pretty much irrelevant when you make an investment decision.

Also -- if he doesn't make an investment in expanding his business (which is deductible from his personal taxes), what would he do with those money?

Pretty much the same answer as abvove.

Mutual finds? And how much those are returning now? And ROI from those investments are taxed too -- and they should be taxed at the same rate, as any other personal income.

When looking at an anticipated ROI, oine takes into consideration how much that investment will cost him...and the taxes are deemed as costs.

 

[Jarhead]

Fine. Now answer my question, or don't. Squirming to dodge it was tried and failed.

I tired to enjoy this debate with you...but your attitude is way too childish for me. You simply want to be right...you dont want to engage in an hoinest debate.

One can not answer your question without a more definitive economic status/climate.

I would NEVER invest 1000 in an unknown on the heels of a recession.

FYI...I am all for tax hikes when the economic climate is one of prosperity. Business owners have a different mindset.

But to say to some guy....you barley made a living for the last 4 years...and now we are going to take even MORE of what you make now that you are starting to make money again...is counter productive.

You need to think like a business owner. They have not made a nice profit for 4 plus years.....why kick them when they are just starting to try to get up?

Great. What would you like; a gold star?

Nope. Dont need it....but now I know what you aree all about.

Cya.

 

[candycorn]

OMG, this is getting funnier by the minute.

According to the latest accounts, Obama is pushing very hard on taxing the rich -- not only expiration of Bush tax cuts, but also rising the dividend and estate taxes. In exchange, Dems are proposing modest spending cuts, leaving it to Republicans to offer what else they see fit to axe.

Now that is where it gets comical -- Republicans refuse to detail any additional spending cuts! They say they are desperately needed, huge cuts too. But they are afraid -- and for a good reason too -- that if they themselves would put any specific proposals regarding the entitlement programs on the table, the voters would punish them.

So Republicnas are practically begging the Dems to do the honor and commit a political suicide.

Now tell me -- aren't they cute? Saying no to them is like taking a candy from a little girl -- breaks one's heart! I see John Boehner crying again.

I don't know that is is true but I have yet to hear specifics from either side about proposed cuts. I see general numbers floated around but not one that shows

Medicare cut by $XXX,XXX,XXX,XXX
Defense cut by $XXX,XXX,XXX,XXX

etc...

I look forward to seeing these numbers.

 

[Koios]

and I am not scratching the 3 payments idea. You just didnt read what I wrote.
I am paying 13 this year.....that is legal...I have only paid 10 so far...but was never deemed behind on my mortgage.

Fine. Now answer my question, or don't. Squirming to dodge it was tried and failed.

I tired to enjoy this debate with you...but your attitude is way too childish for me. You simply want to be right...you dont want to engage in an hoinest debate.

One can not answer your question without a more definitive economic status/climate.

I would NEVER invest 1000 in an unknown on the heels of a recession.

FYI...I am all for tax hikes when the economic climate is one of prosperity. Business owners have a different mindset.

But to say to some guy....you barley made a living for the last 4 years...and now we are going to take even MORE of what you make now that you are starting to make money again...is counter productive.

You need to think like a business owner. They have not made a nice profit for 4 plus years.....why kick them when they are just starting to try to get up?

Worry not. If your business is ill-conceived and makes no money, you can cheer, because you'll pay no tax.

But if, godforbid, you're burdened with business acumen, and make a tidy profit, you'll pay tax.

 

[saveliberty]

Fine. Now answer my question, or don't. Squirming to dodge it was tried and failed.

I tired to enjoy this debate with you...but your attitude is way too childish for me. You simply want to be right...you dont want to engage in an hoinest debate.

One can not answer your question without a more definitive economic status/climate.

I would NEVER invest 1000 in an unknown on the heels of a recession.

FYI...I am all for tax hikes when the economic climate is one of prosperity. Business owners have a different mindset.

But to say to some guy....you barley made a living for the last 4 years...and now we are going to take even MORE of what you make now that you are starting to make money again...is counter productive.

You need to think like a business owner. They have not made a nice profit for 4 plus years.....why kick them when they are just starting to try to get up?

Great. What would you like; a gold star?

Breathing room idiot. I've lost a lot of sleep the last four years trying to stay ahead of closing the doors.

 

[saveliberty]

Worry not. If your business is ill-conceived and makes no money, you can cheer, because you'll pay no tax.

But if, godforbid, you're burdened with business acumen, and make a tidy profit, you'll pay tax.

Spoken like a true armchair businessman.

 

[Jarhead]

OMG, this is getting funnier by the minute.

According to the latest accounts, Obama is pushing very hard on taxing the rich -- not only expiration of Bush tax cuts, but also rising the dividend and estate taxes. In exchange, Dems are proposing modest spending cuts, leaving it to Republicans to offer what else they see fit to axe.

Now that is where it gets comical -- Republicans refuse to detail any additional spending cuts! They say they are desperately needed, huge cuts too. But they are afraid -- and for a good reason too -- that if they themselves would put any specific proposals regarding the entitlement programs on the table, the voters would punish them.

So Republicnas are practically begging the Dems to do the honor and commit a political suicide.

Now tell me -- aren't they cute? Saying no to them is like taking a candy from a little girl -- breaks one's heart! I see John Boehner crying again.

I don't know that is is true but I have yet to hear specifics from either side about proposed cuts. I see general numbers floated around but not one that shows

Medicare cut by $XXX,XXX,XXX,XXX
Defense cut by $XXX,XXX,XXX,XXX

etc...

I look forward to seeing these numbers.

the proposed spending cuts of the GOP have been voted on in the house and presented to the senate for 2 years in a row...

Unfortunately, the senate majority leader refused to allow a vote on them.

Understand something....the senate majority leader made it clear to the GOP that he is not interested in their cuts....so now they are saying..."OK, then tell us what YOU want to cut"

You need to remove yourself from the political rhetoric and look at the facts.

The GOP has presented a way to increase revenue by the porposed 80 billion a year.
The GOP has presented the cuts they would like to see....but the demoicratic senate said "we disagree"

OK...you disagree...so what DO YOU want to cut?

 

[Jarhead]

I tired to enjoy this debate with you...but your attitude is way too childish for me. You simply want to be right...you dont want to engage in an hoinest debate.

One can not answer your question without a more definitive economic status/climate.

I would NEVER invest 1000 in an unknown on the heels of a recession.

FYI...I am all for tax hikes when the economic climate is one of prosperity. Business owners have a different mindset.

But to say to some guy....you barley made a living for the last 4 years...and now we are going to take even MORE of what you make now that you are starting to make money again...is counter productive.

You need to think like a business owner. They have not made a nice profit for 4 plus years.....why kick them when they are just starting to try to get up?

Great. What would you like; a gold star?

Breathing room idiot. I've lost a lot of sleep the last four years trying to stay ahead of closing the doors.

It is not just that they dont get it.

They dont WANT to get it.

 

[Oldstyle]

Correct. That's separate from making money, which we all like, and would like more of.

And if you can force yourself to save, and have it come out pre-tax (higher net paycheck), that's a good plan, sort of, assuming you take the gains / pre-tax investment when you're retired or unemployed, and thus it will be taxed at a lower rate since it's realized when your earnings are lower ... hopefully.

Back to the making money part: we all like it. Give me a raise, and I'll shake my boss' hand. Earn me more from Capital, and I'll brag to the neighbor. None too compplicated, in what motivates work or investment: desire to make dough.

Let me see if I can put this into SIMPLE terms so even you can understand...

If your Boss came to you and said he was going to give you a $5 an hour raise and a new position but the commute to your new job would cost you $250 a week in gas plus another five hours in drive time...would you shake his hand?

Of course not...because your bottom line has gone down...not up. That added cost of gas plus your time wasted makes your ROI less than the old job. Tax increases are one more thing that takes away from ROI...that detracts from the bottom line. When you do that you have less investment.

No. Because I do not make more dough.

Now then, given your senario, where does tax come into that decision?

Now put yourself into the shoes of a business owner. You're trying to decide whether or not to invest in that million dollar "widget" factory and after crunching the numbers you think that you can make a decent profit producing widgets and selling them. But just when you're about to pull the trigger on that million dollar investment you're told that the government is going to increase taxes on any profits you will be making. Are you so ignorant about how businesses function that you don't think that new tax is going to affect your decision to invest? It may be that the added tax now makes a lower rate of return from putting capital into a tax free shelter more attractive. The risk/reward simply isn't worth gambling with that million dollar investment.

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

OMG, this is getting funnier by the minute.

According to the latest accounts, Obama is pushing very hard on taxing the rich -- not only expiration of Bush tax cuts, but also rising the dividend and estate taxes. In exchange, Dems are proposing modest spending cuts, leaving it to Republicans to offer what else they see fit to axe.

Now that is where it gets comical -- Republicans refuse to detail any additional spending cuts! They say they are desperately needed, huge cuts too. But they are afraid -- and for a good reason too -- that if they themselves would put any specific proposals regarding the entitlement programs on the table, the voters would punish them.

So Republicnas are practically begging the Dems to do the honor and commit a political suicide.

Now tell me -- aren't they cute? Saying no to them is like taking a candy from a little girl -- breaks one's heart! I see John Boehner crying again.

I don't know that is is true but I have yet to hear specifics from either side about proposed cuts. I see general numbers floated around but not one that shows

Medicare cut by $XXX,XXX,XXX,XXX
Defense cut by $XXX,XXX,XXX,XXX

etc...

I look forward to seeing these numbers.

the proposed spending cuts of the GOP have been voted on in the house and presented to the senate for 2 years in a row...

Unfortunately, the senate majority leader refused to allow a vote on them.

Understand something....the senate majority leader made it clear to the GOP that he is not interested in their cuts....so now they are saying..."OK, then tell us what YOU want to cut"

You need to remove yourself from the political rhetoric and look at the facts.

The GOP has presented a way to increase revenue by the porposed 80 billion a year.
The GOP has presented the cuts they would like to see....but the demoicratic senate said "we disagree"

OK...you disagree...so what DO YOU want to cut?

Grand Bargain Documents: Obama, Debt Ceiling - Business Insider

here is the grand bargain the GOP walked away from. why dont they vote on this?

 

[saveliberty]

Hope Obamacare is affordable for small business employees, cause that is one of the first expenses I'd cut.

 

[Oldstyle]

Fine. Now answer my question, or don't. Squirming to dodge it was tried and failed.

I tired to enjoy this debate with you...but your attitude is way too childish for me. You simply want to be right...you dont want to engage in an hoinest debate.

One can not answer your question without a more definitive economic status/climate.

I would NEVER invest 1000 in an unknown on the heels of a recession.

FYI...I am all for tax hikes when the economic climate is one of prosperity. Business owners have a different mindset.

But to say to some guy....you barley made a living for the last 4 years...and now we are going to take even MORE of what you make now that you are starting to make money again...is counter productive.

You need to think like a business owner. They have not made a nice profit for 4 plus years.....why kick them when they are just starting to try to get up?

Worry not. If your business is ill-conceived and makes no money, you can cheer, because you'll pay no tax.

But if, godforbid, you're burdened with business acumen, and make a tidy profit, you'll pay tax.

So you're basically saying that business owners should be happy not paying taxes...because they are going belly up...and if they are making a small profit they should happily give a big chunk of that to the very government that's been making it hard to make that profit in the first place?

LOL...and you progressives wonder why you can't get the Private Sector to invest under you! Too funny...