Republicans to target unions, expand school choice in states

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

View attachment 103662

That chart means nothing. Graduation rates are determined by student motivation and not by the quality of the school.

 

[Clementine]

Found this on my local news station site and decided to throw it out there. The meat of the article says this:

"As President-elect Donald Trump leads an attempted makeover in Washington, Republican governors and state lawmakers will be simultaneously pushing an aggressive agenda that limits abortion, lawsuits and unions, cuts business taxes and regulations, and expands gun rights and school choice.

Republicans will hold 33 governors' offices, have majorities in 33 legislatures and control both the governor's office and legislature in 25 states - their most since 1952. Democrats will control both the governor's office and legislature in only about a half-dozen states; the rest will have politically divided governments."

Republicans to target unions, expand school choice in states

So is this such a bad agenda? I predict more snowflakes a falling.

The states with strong teachers' unions have the best educational records in the country.

Why fuck with that?

Around Obama's first election, parents kept their children out of Chicago public schools on the first day of school, claiming that the schools were Apartheid-style schools.

Unions help unions and they spend big money on political campaigns. Despite keeping them well-funded, there has been little change in many inner city schools.

Shoring up union funds does not always help students. That has been proven time and time again.

 

[Clementine]

Who are Republicans fighting for, when they go after unions and union busting? Are they in bed with the Corporations? Certainly not in bed with the citizens who work in Union jobs that pay well....

Republicans are fighting for choice.

I remember years ago when I was out looking for jobs, I'd apply to someplace that had a union. I would be up front and tell them I had no interest in joining a union. They told me either I join the union or they can't hire me.

Do you think that's fair?

If you do not join the union, the company should be able to pay you a lower wage than those who collectively bargained for their pay. Wouldn't that be fair? How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot?

Collective bargaining is grossly unfair. The inept ride on the backs of the qualified. And the rule is to just pay union dues to get ahead because it's easier than actually working hard.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The only correct thing you posted is that people who have to pay for their children's education out of their own pocket make sure they are getting their monies worth. And you do know that vouchers (in most cases) don't cover the entire cost of education, don't you? Parents still have to pony up at least some money.

which doesn't help the problem you guys say you want to correct. if you are too poor to afford private school, you are still too poor even with a voucher.

How does that help the poor kids again?

Oh, wait. Helping the poor kids was never the plan, was it?

I said in most cases. When you get a voucher, you can spend it anyway you like. Find a school that you can afford to send your children to.

Do you really believe that parents are too stupid to make the best decision for their children's education? If your public school is loaded with drugs and violence, any school is better for your kid if he or she really wants to learn.

You want me to pay school taxes AND pay you a voucher to put your kids in private school?

It would only be the start. When it becomes more popular, you can take public money out of the public schools and apply it to vouchers. I have a better idea though: I think home school parents should be able to teach other children in the neighborhood as well. Last I looked, the average cost per capita is something like 12K per year per student. Why not give home school parents 8K a year for each student they decide to teach? It would replace that lost second income while at the same time, save the taxpayers 4K per student every year.

That 12k a year figure is bogus because of the exorbitant amounts spent on special education. In the 1960s, if your child was disabled, they simply did not go to school. Now we pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to educate ONE child with serious medical issues. The actual dollar figure that a school sees is probably closer to half that amount. In 2006, we received 4K per student in my high school. That was it.

Here is a breakdown of costs that are included in total price of public education. I don't see special education as a separate category:

Fast Facts

And to be honest, private school is not that much cheaper if at all compared to public school.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Ahh, the old teacher's union fallback position. Test scores. Meaningless pap. It is well regarded that standardized test scores do not measure intelligence. In fact standardized tests measure one thing. The student's ability to take the test.
Urban school districts with struggling schools never show high test scores.
So the article shows no context.

Yet that's the only measure we have, isn't it? The point is, in Milwaukee, test scores when DOWN after they looted the systems and let all the scammers get into play. ANother place where the scores went down was in Michigan, were Betsy Devos got school choice put in and things got measurably worse.

Look, school choice( not vouchers. No one is talking about vouchers) is a cry for help. The system in place is not working for inner city kids. It hasn't in three or more decades. Let them decide where they want to go to school. And BTW, most people who want to choose their child's school, are members of minority communities. Same applies to vouchers.

The problem is, you can't move the problem kids without moving the problems. moving the kid from the problem district to the good district just means you are moving the problem, not fixing it. This isn't complicated.

And your analysis of "poor kids".....I assume you mean minority children not being able to succeed despite the fact that they are given better tools and a better educational environment "won't work" is patently racist.

When did this happen? In fact, the opposite is true. Poor kids in Chicago have a lot less spent on them than rich kids in Evanston...(to use an IL example.)


— Due to the primary reliance on local property tax revenue for school funding, there are massive cumulative gaps in per-pupil spending, particularly in poor or minority communities. The 6,413 students who started elementary school in Evanston [a suburb north of Chicago] in 1994 and graduated from high school in 2007 had about $290 million more spent on their education than the same number of Chicago Public Schools students.— Many of the school districts that spent the most per-student received at least 90 percent of their money from local property taxes. Yet, these districts tended to tax themselves at far lower rates than their poorer counterparts.

Only dishonest Meth head Joe would try to compare Chicago to the richest district in Illinois..


BTW Chicago spends $16,000 per student

Evanston spends $18,000


Washington DC home to one of the worst test scores in the nation they spend $ 29,000 per pupil

That is because DC has to pay teachers at least close to six figures to dare set foot in their drug-infected, gang dominated schools.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Who are Republicans fighting for, when they go after unions and union busting? Are they in bed with the Corporations? Certainly not in bed with the citizens who work in Union jobs that pay well....

Republicans are fighting for choice.

I remember years ago when I was out looking for jobs, I'd apply to someplace that had a union. I would be up front and tell them I had no interest in joining a union. They told me either I join the union or they can't hire me.

Do you think that's fair?

If you do not join the union, the company should be able to pay you a lower wage than those who collectively bargained for their pay. Wouldn't that be fair? How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot?

Of course that would be fair. That's what Right-to-Work is all about. That's why I support it.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Who are Republicans fighting for, when they go after unions and union busting? Are they in bed with the Corporations? Certainly not in bed with the citizens who work in Union jobs that pay well....

Republicans are fighting for choice.

I remember years ago when I was out looking for jobs, I'd apply to someplace that had a union. I would be up front and tell them I had no interest in joining a union. They told me either I join the union or they can't hire me.

Do you think that's fair?

If you do not join the union, the company should be able to pay you a lower wage than those who collectively bargained for their pay. Wouldn't that be fair? How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot?

Collective bargaining is grossly unfair. The inept ride on the backs of the qualified. And the rule is to just pay union dues to get ahead because it's easier than actually working hard.

Typical non-answer. Surely you can come up with a better response than whining.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Who are Republicans fighting for, when they go after unions and union busting? Are they in bed with the Corporations? Certainly not in bed with the citizens who work in Union jobs that pay well....

Republicans are fighting for choice.

I remember years ago when I was out looking for jobs, I'd apply to someplace that had a union. I would be up front and tell them I had no interest in joining a union. They told me either I join the union or they can't hire me.

Do you think that's fair?

If you do not join the union, the company should be able to pay you a lower wage than those who collectively bargained for their pay. Wouldn't that be fair? How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot?

Of course that would be fair. That's what Right-to-Work is all about. That's why I support it.

Than my hat is off to you for backing up your beliefs!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Public schools should get the complete choice to choose who goes there and who stays there. Right now, public schools don't have choice.

Sure they do. Ever heard of "Expulsion"?

Expulsion? You mean like the half dozen or so that were "expelled" by my school and 6 months later were right back in my class? It doesn't mean what it used to mean.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

So is this such a bad agenda? I predict more snowflakes a falling.

given that Charter schools have worse record than public schools, and that's before all the protections to keep the scams out are eliminated, um, yeah, that would be a bad thing.

The thing about it is, no one wants to set up Charter Schools in the Cleetus states. There's no money to be made there. They want to get into LA and NY and Chicago, where there are big old pots of money to be had.

And that is a lie.....the left creates road blocks to Charter schools that keep them from being successful......so don't even try that lie....

Competition works in every area of life to decrease costs and improve quality.....the only objection the left has to education being private is that they lose their tax payer funded left wing indoctrination centers........the 12 years they get to brain wash our children against their own country....

And besides.......who wants charter schools......we want Vouchers....so that parents can send their kids to any school they want....anywhere they want.....just like college....

If you send your kid to a private school versus a state school for college, don't you have to pay for it?

Let's get off an apples to oranges comparison, shall we?'

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

The SAME parents who send their students to public school with no home-made lunch

You mean those same parents that when they do pack a sack lunch for their kids, to only have the cafeteria police go through it to decide what the kid can eat?

My kids went to a school that had a closed campus, and also didn't allow them to bring a lunch. We tried to protest to the school but was told that it was "policy to protect the students". They never did answer "from what". What other option is there?

Link to that happening all over the place, please.

State Inspectors Searching Children’s Lunch Boxes: “This Isn’t China, Is It?”
NC preschooler’s “unhealthy” lunch replaced with cafeteria nuggets

Wow! 2! I didn't think you could count that high.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Well, good for them......if they turned out so wonderful, why are you whining about it?

Because tax money only goes to public schools. At the very least, parents that send their kids to private school should not be funding the public school since their kids don't attend. Then they can use that money to help pay for their own children's education.

I don't have any children attending school. I pay taxes for everyone's kids to attend school.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Where are schools excellent, and teachers low paid?

Where I live the schools are not very good and the teachers are paid excellent. How do I know? My former tenant used to work as a teacher here.

Where is that? I'll check the teacher pay scale and cross reference it with other professionals living in that area.

Teaching in Maple Heights City School District | Salary | Jobs | Employment (Ohio) | Teacher.org

That ENTIRE school district has fewer teachers than ONE high school where I taught.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Obama lunch anyone?

You one of those lazy parents who can't fix their own child a lunch?

I would ask the same of the parents who's kids are accepting Free Lunch. Are they too lazy to fix their kids lunch? In some areas, the schools even provide free breakfast and dinner year round. At that point, it's no longer a school. It's almost a homeless shelter.

Much better to let those kids go hungry, right?

Why would they go hungry? Fix the kids a lunch. They have food stamps and food stamps usually gives people more than they ever need.

You just agreed with the poster you responded to!

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Obama lunch anyone?

You one of those lazy parents who can't fix their own child a lunch?

I would ask the same of the parents who's kids are accepting Free Lunch. Are they too lazy to fix their kids lunch? In some areas, the schools even provide free breakfast and dinner year round. At that point, it's no longer a school. It's almost a homeless shelter.

Much better to let those kids go hungry, right?

Why would they go hungry? Fix the kids a lunch. They have food stamps and food stamps usually gives people more than they ever need.

You just agreed with the poster you responded to!

I only opened up my first beer, and I can't see that I agreed with him (her) at all.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Where are schools excellent, and teachers low paid?

Where I live the schools are not very good and the teachers are paid excellent. How do I know? My former tenant used to work as a teacher here.

Where is that? I'll check the teacher pay scale and cross reference it with other professionals living in that area.

Teaching in Maple Heights City School District | Salary | Jobs | Employment (Ohio) | Teacher.org

That ENTIRE school district has fewer teachers than ONE high school where I taught.

I think if you check anywhere in this area it's around the same if not more depending on where you go.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Well, good for them......if they turned out so wonderful, why are you whining about it?

Because tax money only goes to public schools. At the very least, parents that send their kids to private school should not be funding the public school since their kids don't attend. Then they can use that money to help pay for their own children's education.

Then you need to complain to those who pass the laws making property taxes pay for schools. Repeal the laws.

We just want vouchers

IOW you want a handout from the government.

How is using your own tax money to educate your kids a handout?

It is not your tax money. I have no kids in school. Should I get a refund?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

You one of those lazy parents who can't fix their own child a lunch?

I would ask the same of the parents who's kids are accepting Free Lunch. Are they too lazy to fix their kids lunch? In some areas, the schools even provide free breakfast and dinner year round. At that point, it's no longer a school. It's almost a homeless shelter.

Much better to let those kids go hungry, right?

Why would they go hungry? Fix the kids a lunch. They have food stamps and food stamps usually gives people more than they ever need.

You just agreed with the poster you responded to!

I only opened up my first beer, and I can't see that I agreed with him (her) at all.

Put the beer down. You did, without even realizing it.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Well, good for them......if they turned out so wonderful, why are you whining about it?

Because tax money only goes to public schools. At the very least, parents that send their kids to private school should not be funding the public school since their kids don't attend. Then they can use that money to help pay for their own children's education.

I don't have any children attending school. I pay taxes for everyone's kids to attend school.

Me too unfortunately. Here you are assessed tax by how much your property is worth and not by how much you use the school. Me nor any of my tenants have children in the school system. But I probably pay more tax to the school than the guy down the street with five kids in the school. I do have a problem with that.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I would ask the same of the parents who's kids are accepting Free Lunch. Are they too lazy to fix their kids lunch? In some areas, the schools even provide free breakfast and dinner year round. At that point, it's no longer a school. It's almost a homeless shelter.

Much better to let those kids go hungry, right?

Why would they go hungry? Fix the kids a lunch. They have food stamps and food stamps usually gives people more than they ever need.

You just agreed with the poster you responded to!

I only opened up my first beer, and I can't see that I agreed with him (her) at all.

Put the beer down. You did, without even realizing it.

Maybe you didn't understand. What I said is that the parent(s) of poor kids get enough food stamps to buy enough food to make their kids lunch instead of free lunch the school offers that costs more money.