Rest in Peace Muhammad Ali

[TemplarKormac]

The "freaks and hippies" we're proven correct about Vietnam

It was the war Hawks who wrapped themselves in the American flag who sent 60,000 boys to their deaths

I had a former Green Beret who fought in the in the battle of Khe Sanh from January to July 1968, in what he thought was one of the bloodiest battles of the war, as my JROTC teacher in High School. We bonded and as such he opened up and told me some of his war stories. He also told me how disillusioned he was that our government was so passive that it wouldn't allow US forces to pursue Viet Cong into Laos and Cambodia. That from across the border the Viet Cong would launch Guerrilla style attacks on US forces then retreat back across the border. These attacks were devastating. He thought that this was one of the main reasons why we lost the war. The ROI was rigged against them.

60,000 of our boys needn't have died if our government had been interested in ending the war quickly.

If we were never there at all, we would not have needed rules of engagement

Not our fight

Maybe not, but even then, we could have minimized the casualties. However, this isn't the thread we should be discussing that in. This is Ali's thread, not a Vietnam War discussion thread.

 

[rightwinger]

The "freaks and hippies" we're proven correct about Vietnam

It was the war Hawks who wrapped themselves in the American flag who sent 60,000 boys to their deaths

I had a former Green Beret who fought in the in the battle of Khe Sanh from January to July 1968, in what he thought was one of the bloodiest battles of the war, as my JROTC teacher in High School. We bonded and as such he opened up and told me some of his war stories. He also told me how disillusioned he was that our government was so passive that it wouldn't allow US forces to pursue Viet Cong into Laos and Cambodia. That from across the border the Viet Cong would launch Guerrilla style attacks on US forces then retreat back across the border. These attacks were devastating. He thought that this was one of the main reasons why we lost the war. The ROI was rigged against them.

60,000 of our boys needn't have died if our government had been interested in ending the war quickly.

If we were never there at all, we would not have needed rules of engagement

Not our fight

Maybe not, but even then, we could have minimized the casualties. However, this isn't the thread we should be discussing that in. This is Ali's thread, not a Vietnam War discussion thread.

Keep in mind that by 1967 Vietnam was immensely unpopular. When Nixon invaded Cambodia, there were riots at home
Extending the war into Laos and Cambodia was not a sellable strategy.....especially with 1968 being an election year




.

 

[TemplarKormac]

The "freaks and hippies" we're proven correct about Vietnam

It was the war Hawks who wrapped themselves in the American flag who sent 60,000 boys to their deaths

I had a former Green Beret who fought in the in the battle of Khe Sanh from January to July 1968, in what he thought was one of the bloodiest battles of the war, as my JROTC teacher in High School. We bonded and as such he opened up and told me some of his war stories. He also told me how disillusioned he was that our government was so passive that it wouldn't allow US forces to pursue Viet Cong into Laos and Cambodia. That from across the border the Viet Cong would launch Guerrilla style attacks on US forces then retreat back across the border. These attacks were devastating. He thought that this was one of the main reasons why we lost the war. The ROI was rigged against them.

60,000 of our boys needn't have died if our government had been interested in ending the war quickly.

If we were never there at all, we would not have needed rules of engagement

Not our fight

Maybe not, but even then, we could have minimized the casualties. However, this isn't the thread we should be discussing that in. This is Ali's thread, not a Vietnam War discussion thread.

Keep in mind that by 1967 Vietnam was immensely unpopular. When Nixon invaded Cambodia, there were riots at home
Extending the war into Laos and Cambodia was not a sellable strategy.....especially with 1968 being an election year

I see. I wasn't alive then, so I still don't understand all the intricacies of that era. So frustrating to just read history instead of experiencing it, as was the case with Muhammad Ali. I can watch YouTube vids of his fights all I want, but nothing will beat actually being fortunate enough to have been ringside when his most iconic fights took place.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Extending the war into Laos and Cambodia was not a sellable strategy.....especially with 1968 being an election year

Yeah, I guess he was referring to that.

 

[beagle9]

Is dodging the draft now considered a political principle?

Ali did not dodge the draft, he met it head on. While conservatives were sending their sons to Canada or getting them college deferments, Muhammad Ali just refused to step across that line at the inception station. That was a powerful moment that stands as one of the most spectacular in Black History.

Here was a real man who was courageous enough to let the the White world know he was a Black man who demanded to be in control of his fate and not just a shill for corporate America. With Jim Crow and a plethora of other racial atrocities as the backdrop of his refusal to be drafted, Ali's decision became even more important during the era of MLK. Frankly it would have been interesting to see other Black draftees follow the advise of MLK and do what Ali did.

Thousands of Black men died in Vietnam as in all of our wars; even as their loved ones, left behind, still had to struggle with their real enemy: RW conservatism/racism. Ali knew that and was brave enough and smart enough to bring it out to be recorded by the unblinking eye of the news cameras for the entire world to see. He was willing to make that ultimate sacrifice and gained more respect in that moment than all the Blacks who acquiesced and went with the flow; earning nothing but more contempt by many Whites who hated them anyway…and hated obsequious Blacks even more.

. You know if it was so bad for the blacks in the 60's 70's, and onward, then I'll ask this now - Why didn't the blacks who hated white America so bad, return to their homeland Africa ? With what the government was doing for blacks in those years & beyond, I think that if the blacks would have asked the government here, and at anytime they wished, the federal government would have provided them a way to be repatriated to their homeland. In fact the government might have even went as far as helping them to liberate their homeland, and even to make war with those who might oppose them going back there.

Back to where?

. Their homeland they talk about so much, and that is why they put African in front of American right ? Some of the blacks the way they talk here, you have to wonder why they aren't trying as hard as they can to go back to the place they claim is their real home and place of their culture.

What country? Africa is a continent, genius.

. What ever, you know what I mean... Ok so then it's the continent of Africa their from.... In fact you make a good point, so why do they put African in front of American ? Are they claiming their homeland is upon the whole continent of Africa, and therefore they are Africans from the continent of Africa who are misplaced in America ? That's huge. Now the ones that came here, what part of the continent did they come from, and we're they all Muslims in their religion mostly ? Did Ali return to his religion from what he felt was his ancestrial homeland in Africa, and did he live his whole live yearning for his original homeland while living in America ?

 

[protectionist]

Ali did not dodge the draft, he met it head on. While conservatives were sending their sons to Canada or getting them college deferments, Muhammad Ali just refused to step across that line at the inception station. That was a powerful moment that stands as one of the most spectacular in Black History.

Here was a real man who was courageous enough to let the the White world know he was a Black man who demanded to be in control of his fate and not just a shill for corporate America. With Jim Crow and a plethora of other racial atrocities as the backdrop of his refusal to be drafted, Ali's decision became even more important during the era of MLK. Frankly it would have been interesting to see other Black draftees follow the advise of MLK and do what Ali did.

Thousands of Black men died in Vietnam as in all of our wars; even as their loved ones, left behind, still had to struggle with their real enemy: RW conservatism/racism. Ali knew that and was brave enough and smart enough to bring it out to be recorded by the unblinking eye of the news cameras for the entire world to see. He was willing to make that ultimate sacrifice and gained more respect in that moment than all the Blacks who acquiesced and went with the flow; earning nothing but more contempt by many Whites who hated them anyway…and hated obsequious Blacks even more.

This is a racist post, which supports Clay's racism which he demonstrated at the time that he refused the draft, by putting the Vietnam War into racial terms (as Blacks so often do with most everything in life).

What a pile of crap. The Vietnam War was a disgusting and idiotic screwup by the American leaders of the time, but it really wasn't a racial thing. Blacks have a way of making everything be about race, and Clay (note that I don't refer to a dopey Muslim name) was no exception.

As for your moronic claim of "RW conservatism/racism", there is no such thing. There is however very much so > LEFT wing liberal racism, in the form of AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, the # 1 racism in America, victimizing, by far, the largest number of people (whites), for 55 years now (except in 8 states where it is banned).

And for Clay, there was no "Jim Crow and a plethora of other racial atrocities as the backdrop of his refusal to be drafted" His refusal came in 1968, well after the end of Jim Crow, a few years well into the civil rights laws, and 7 years after the beginning of affirmative action.

And Clay could have served. I opposed the Vietnam War too, and I went out in the street and protested it. That didn't stop me from joining the military (Army National Guard) and putting in 6 years of service to the nation and state, and serving in national defense, 2 riots, 2 blackouts, and 3 floods. If I had been called to go to Vietnam THEN I would have refused it. Instead, I served, am now a veteran, I receive VA benefits in a pension, and a lot of free medical care from the VA. Clay could have done the same thing, but as a Muslim, he had no allegiance to the USA, as all Muslims owe no allegiance to any nation on earth, they owe allegiance only to the Ummah. In essence, Clay was a traitor to this country, as are all Muslims who claim they cannot serve in the US military, because of their religion (which isn't even a religion at all)

What I wonder about is why wasn't he jailed. I recall lots of guys left the country, and went to Canada, others went to jail, rather than accept the draft. How did Clay get around that ?

 

[beagle9]

. It wasn't just ghetto warriors that were drafted was it ? And as I recall they sure weren't all dark skinned or black right ? He was definitely known as a draft dodger, but he paid for that with his boxing career that sadly destroyed his life anyway. Cruel unforgivable world we all live in, but the reward is the forgiveness for our sins. Amen.

Looking back, it was interesting how, out of all the great athletes of the era, only Ali managed to get drafted
The others either got deferments or a cushy National Guard gig where they only did weekends

. Like some have said here, it probably was for moral purposes for the troops just like Elvis was during world war two or Prince William during Afghanistan. Wasn't that the conflict Prince William was a part of ? I don't believe it was for reasons of trying to get rid of him (Ali) or anything like that.

Elvis WW2?......i dont think so.....

. Yep Elvis in wait wasn't it world war two y'all ?

elvis was like 8 years old at that time.....geezus....

. What war was he in then ? I know he was inducted into the army wasn't he ? He had the one two three four occupation GI blues, from the tip of his head to the heels of his GI boots. LOL

 

[bodecea]

Condolences to all in the Ali family. Sad ti see a guy pass away at only 74. Nowadays that is a young age for someone to die. Look a Bernie Sanders. He's 74 and he's a bundle of energy. Same with Ringo Starr and Mick Jagger, who tour the world and dance all over stages.

Something does need to be said about this "greatest" title we keep seeing and hearing so much, though. Muhammad Ali (AKA Cassius Clay) was perhaps "the greatest" at showmanship and self-promotion. As a boxer, he was a very good one, but he was far from being the greatest at that.

He lost a few fights, and there are other boxers (Rocky Marciano, Floyd Mayweather, Joe Calzaghe, Ricardo Lopez, Sven Ottke, Edwin Valero, and others) who fought dozens of fights, and still went UNDEFEATED. Valero won all 27 of his fights, all of them by knockouts. Not fair to these guys to call Ali "the greatest".

List of undefeated boxing world champions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How many of those guys had four prime years taken away because they stood up for their political principles?

Some poor schmuck in the ghetto had to take Clay's place because he changed his name as an excuse for refusing to go to Vietnam. He's lucky he only lost four years, the poor sap who took Ali's place probably died.

Nevertheless, RIP. Both of them.

. It wasn't just ghetto warriors that were drafted was it ? And as I recall they sure weren't all dark skinned or black right ? He was definitely known as a draft dodger, but he paid for that with his boxing career that sadly destroyed his life anyway. Cruel unforgivable world we all live in, but the reward is the forgiveness for our sins. Amen.

Looking back, it was interesting how, out of all the great athletes of the era, only Ali managed to get drafted
The others either got deferments or a cushy National Guard gig where they only did weekends

. Like some have said here, it probably was for moral purposes for the troops just like Elvis was during world war two or Prince William during Afghanistan. Wasn't that the conflict Prince William was a part of ? I don't believe it was for reasons of trying to get rid of him (Ali) or anything like that.

Elvis in WWII?

 

[bodecea]

This is a racist post, which supports Clay's racism which he demonstrated at the time that he refused the draft, by putting the Vietnam War into racial terms (as Blacks so often do with most everything in life).

What a pile of crap. The Vietnam War was a disgusting and idiotic screwup by the American leaders of the time, but it really wasn't a racial thing. Blacks have a way of making everything be about race, and Clay (note that I don't refer to a dopey Muslim name) was no exception.

As for your moronic claim of "RW conservatism/racism", there is no such thing. There is however very much so > LEFT wing liberal racism, in the form of AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, the # 1 racism in America, victimizing, by far, the largest number of people (whites), for 55 years now (except in 8 states where it is banned).

And for Clay, there was no "Jim Crow and a plethora of other racial atrocities as the backdrop of his refusal to be drafted" His refusal came in 1968, well after the end of Jim Crow, a few years well into the civil rights laws, and 7 years after the beginning of affirmative action.

And Clay could have served. I opposed the Vietnam War too, and I went out in the street and protested it. That didn't stop me from joining the military (Army National Guard) and putting in 6 years of service to the nation and state, and serving in national defense, 2 riots, 2 blackouts, and 3 floods. If I had been called to go to Vietnam THEN I would have refused it. Instead, I served, am now a veteran, I receive VA benefits in a pension, and a lot of free medical care from the VA. Clay could have done the same thing, but as a Muslim, he had no allegiance to the USA, as all Muslims owe no allegiance to any nation on earth, they owe allegiance only to the Ummah. In essence, Clay was a traitor to this country, as are all Muslims who claim they cannot serve in the US military, because of their religion (which isn't even a religion at all)

What I wonder about is why wasn't he jailed. I recall lots of guys left the country, and went to Canada, others went to jail, rather than accept the draft. How did Clay get around that ?

True.

 

[protectionist]

What ever, you know what I mean... Ok so then it's the continent of Africa their from.... In fact you make a good point, so why do they put African in front of American ? Are they claiming their homeland is upon the whole continent of Africa, and therefore they are Africans from the continent of Africa who are misplaced in America ? That's huge. Now the ones that came here, what part of the continent did they come from, and we're they all Muslims in their religion mostly ? Did Ali return to his religion from what he felt was his ancestrial homeland in Africa, and did he live his whole live yearning for his original homeland while living in America ?

Putting the word "African" in front of the word "American" is absurd. Blacks is the correct term to describe black people, not African-American. Blacks in America have no connection to Africa whatsoever,. They don't speak African languages, they don't understand African cultures (of which there are many), and few of them have ever set foot in Africa.

Throughout my life, I have met 4 guys are truly African-American. They were BORN IN AFRICA, lived there until adults, and then immigrated to the US, and became American citizens. They all speak the African languages of the home countries (Tanzania, Botswana, South Africa, and Rhodesia - now called Zimbabwe) All 4 truly are African-Americans. All 4 are White.

 

[Dr Grump]

Condolences to all in the Ali family. Sad ti see a guy pass away at only 74. Nowadays that is a young age for someone to die. Look a Bernie Sanders. He's 74 and he's a bundle of energy. Same with Ringo Starr and Mick Jagger, who tour the world and dance all over stages.

Something does need to be said about this "greatest" title we keep seeing and hearing so much, though. Muhammad Ali (AKA Cassius Clay) was perhaps "the greatest" at showmanship and self-promotion. As a boxer, he was a very good one, but he was far from being the greatest at that.

He lost a few fights, and there are other boxers (Rocky Marciano, Floyd Mayweather, Joe Calzaghe, Ricardo Lopez, Sven Ottke, Edwin Valero, and others) who fought dozens of fights, and still went UNDEFEATED. Valero won all 27 of his fights, all of them by knockouts. Not fair to these guys to call Ali "the greatest".

List of undefeated boxing world champions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh, please. Look at who they fought and under the conditions. I've always had a soft spot for Marciano, and Floyd is possibly up there, but look at who Ali fought. A brutal Sonny Liston, a bully in George Foreman, a brawler like Frazier, an underrated Larry Holmes and I won't even get into very handy journeymen like Henry Cooper (who knocked Ali down) and Ken Norton. I won't even get into how they fought 15 rounds back in Ali's day and medical conditions were a lot less stringent. The rest on your 'list' are average to say the least. Ali was the greatest.

 

[Dr Grump]

It was apropos that he dodged the draft by claiming he was Muslim... again, cheating to win. I just never had any respect for the man and didn't like him as a person.

Of all the deaths that have happened in 2016, his saddens me the least.

He never should have been drafted in the first place. And he was right, no Vietcong ever called him ******. And why should he have gone to fight in a war that not only wasn't America's but on behalf of a country where vast tracts of the nation treated people of his colour as second-class citizens.

 

[beagle9]

. Now your talking dumb. Bob hope was flat outright the best when it came to troop morale. Denounce the war & undermine the troops in action ? A typical weak knees liberal move, but not the move of true American patriots who were fighting for those in the world who wanted what America has "Freedom".

Bob Hope coming out against the war would have ended it two years earlier

Sometimes supporting the troops is not making them laugh but looking out for their well being

. Winning that war should have been the order of the day, and us not bowing down to freaks & hippies who didn't know their butt from a hole in the ground is where it all went wrong & where we went wrong. It's been a shame and a sham ever since. It opened up Pandora's box, and it all but erased our victories in Europe and in the Pacific theater.

The "freaks and hippies" we're proven correct about Vietnam

It was the war Hawks who wrapped themselves in the American flag who sent 60,000 boys to their deaths

War hawks like Kennedy and Johnson?

Kennedy refused to send ground troops and it cost him his life. If LBJ and Nixon were still here I would want them tried for war crimes. They`re gone but there is another murdering piece of shit living in exile on a fake ranch in Texas. Do you want to know why 4,500 died looking for wmds? Me too.

. You anti-war, anti-American libs don't understand that if we as a nation go to war, then we go to win it, but then with all your interference and undermining of the nation from within, we just end up dying for nothing almost everytime now. Also if you think this nation will never go to war again or get out of the ones we're in by your standards of doing things, then we will lose and lose and lose right on and on everytime. America is tired of losing under you libs or because of you libs.

 

[rightwinger]

It was apropos that he dodged the draft by claiming he was Muslim... again, cheating to win. I just never had any respect for the man and didn't like him as a person.

Of all the deaths that have happened in 2016, his saddens me the least.

He never should have been drafted in the first place. And he was right, no Vietcong ever called him ******. And why should he have gone to fight in a war that not only wasn't America's but for a country where vast tracts of the nation treated people of his colour as second-class citizens.

It was not just that but he had legitimate religious objections that if he were Christian would have kept him out of the draft
The Supreme Court agreed with him

 

[rightwinger]

Bob Hope coming out against the war would have ended it two years earlier

Sometimes supporting the troops is not making them laugh but looking out for their well being

. Winning that war should have been the order of the day, and us not bowing down to freaks & hippies who didn't know their butt from a hole in the ground is where it all went wrong & where we went wrong. It's been a shame and a sham ever since. It opened up Pandora's box, and it all but erased our victories in Europe and in the Pacific theater.

The "freaks and hippies" we're proven correct about Vietnam

It was the war Hawks who wrapped themselves in the American flag who sent 60,000 boys to their deaths

War hawks like Kennedy and Johnson?

Kennedy refused to send ground troops and it cost him his life. If LBJ and Nixon were still here I would want them tried for war crimes. They`re gone but there is another murdering piece of shit living in exile on a fake ranch in Texas. Do you want to know why 4,500 died looking for wmds? Me too.

. You anti-war, anti-American libs don't understand that if we as a nation go to war, then we go to win it, but then with all your interference and undermining of the nation from within, we just end up dying for nothing almost everytime now. Also if you think this nation will never go to war again or get out of the ones we're in by your standards of doing things, then we will lose and lose and lose right on and on everytime. America is tired of losing under you libs or because of you libs.

Bad wars are still bad wars

Doubling down on bad decisions only leads to more coffins

 

[Dr Grump]

You anti-war, anti-American libs don't understand that if we as a nation go to war, then we go to win it, but then with all your interference and undermining of the nation from within, we just end up dying for nothing almost everytime now. Also if you think this nation will never go to war again or get out of the ones we're in by your standards of doing things, then we will lose and lose and lose right on and on everytime. America is tired of losing under you libs or because of you libs.

Then stop going to war. The last justified war the US was involved in was WWII. That's it.

 

[Asclepias]

The GOAT and one of my very few idols. Still here in spirit just like the other GOATs.

 

[beagle9]

The "freaks and hippies" we're proven correct about Vietnam

It was the war Hawks who wrapped themselves in the American flag who sent 60,000 boys to their deaths

I had a former Green Beret who fought in the in the battle of Khe Sanh from January to July 1968, in what he thought was one of the bloodiest battles of the war, as my JROTC teacher in High School. We bonded and as such he opened up and told me some of his war stories. He also told me how disillusioned he was that our government was so passive that it wouldn't allow US forces to pursue Viet Cong into Laos and Cambodia. That from across the border the Viet Cong would launch Guerrilla style attacks on US forces then retreat back across the border. These attacks were devastating. He thought that this was one of the main reasons why we lost the war. The ROI was rigged against them.

60,000 of our boys needn't have died if our government had been interested in ending the war quickly.

. The war was fought against three fronts by our troops... Number one was the Vietcong... Number two was the US government tying there hands, and Number three was the weak knee libs who would rather see them die for being at war with anyone in the world, than to see them return triumphant as they did during most all the other conflicts or wars they were in prior to the hippy invasion, and a government that hung them out to dry, and to die there.

 

[Dr Grump]

60,000 of our boys needn't have died if our government had been interested in ending the war quickly. The war was fought against three fronts by our troops... Number one was the Vietcong... Number two was the US government tying there hands, and Number three was the weak knee libs who would rather see them die for being at war with anyone in the world, than to see them return triumphant as they did during most all the other conflicts or wars they were in prior to the hippy invasion, and a government that hung them out to dry, and to die there.

60,000 of your boys wouldn't have died if you hadn't gone there in the first place. Those against the war were right. It was none of the US's business what was going on there, and the intervention was unjustified.

 

[Asclepias]

Condolences to all in the Ali family. Sad ti see a guy pass away at only 74. Nowadays that is a young age for someone to die. Look a Bernie Sanders. He's 74 and he's a bundle of energy. Same with Ringo Starr and Mick Jagger, who tour the world and dance all over stages.

Something does need to be said about this "greatest" title we keep seeing and hearing so much, though. Muhammad Ali (AKA Cassius Clay) was perhaps "the greatest" at showmanship and self-promotion. As a boxer, he was a very good one, but he was far from being the greatest at that.

He lost a few fights, and there are other boxers (Rocky Marciano, Floyd Mayweather, Joe Calzaghe, Ricardo Lopez, Sven Ottke, Edwin Valero, and others) who fought dozens of fights, and still went UNDEFEATED. Valero won all 27 of his fights, all of them by knockouts. Not fair to these guys to call Ali "the greatest".

List of undefeated boxing world champions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How many of those guys had four prime years taken away because they stood up for their political principles?

Some poor schmuck in the ghetto had to take Clay's place because he changed his name as an excuse for refusing to go to Vietnam. He's lucky he only lost four years, the poor sap who took Ali's place probably died.

Nevertheless, RIP. Both of them.

. It wasn't just ghetto warriors that were drafted was it ? And as I recall they sure weren't all dark skinned or black right ? He was definitely known as a draft dodger, but he paid for that with his boxing career that sadly destroyed his life anyway. Cruel unforgivable world we all live in, but the reward is the forgiveness for our sins. Amen.

Looking back, it was interesting how, out of all the great athletes of the era, only Ali managed to get drafted
The others either got deferments or a cushy National Guard gig where they only did weekends

It was done to embarrass the NOI. They knew Ali would have to quit fighting or make the NOI look weak.