Revolution!!!

[Foxfyre]

It was Ben Franklin that was correct when he said that the Constitution would not last forever but only until the people become so corrupt that they vote themselves a despotic government.

He more specifically said that the Republic would be doomed once they figured out how to vote themselves money from the public treasury.

The Emancipation Proclamation thread proposes a means to free us from the increasingly despotic government we have been creating for some time now and restore the oroginal intent of the Constitution.

Since I think the problem is not the people we elect, but rather the system that has gradually been put into place, we have to fix the system--restore the original system. And that will run the self serving career politicans off and leave room for honorable public servants to again occupy the halls of Congress and the White House.

I disagree that the problem is the people we elect or the system. I think the problem is the people itself. Those other issues are just symptoms of the problem.

Well we need to figure that out. I think it is the system because I've seen too many truly visionary and public service spirited people sent to Washington that all too soon became corrupted by the system. You have to go along to get along or the leadership (of both parties) can make your time there a hellish existance of marginalized irrelevance. So those who are enriching themselves at our expense can easily force the newcomers to toe the line and, once they do, it is all too easy for human nature to take over and just do what everybody else does. And justify it by everybody else has done it and is doing it.

I think reforming the system so that those in Congress, the White House, and the bureaucracy are unable to increase their power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes at our expense, and you fix 90% or better of the worst problems all of us see no matter what side of the political aisle we favor.

 

[saveliberty]

Influence can be gained without a present return of campaign funds or bribes. It can be post term jobs or help to family and so on. Power is limited most by the time you can influence decisions. Term limits!

You change your underwear everyday (hopefully), politicans stink worse.

 

[catzmeow]

Influence can be gained without a present return of campaign funds or bribes. It can be post term jobs or help to family and so on. Power is limited most by the time you can influence decisions. Term limits!

You change your underwear everyday (hopefully), politicans stink worse.

We have term limits in Florida, they've resulted in a higher level of party corruption and influence and lesser competence in politicians.

 

[saveliberty]

Influence can be gained without a present return of campaign funds or bribes. It can be post term jobs or help to family and so on. Power is limited most by the time you can influence decisions. Term limits!

You change your underwear everyday (hopefully), politicans stink worse.

We have term limits in Florida, they've resulted in a higher level of party corruption and influence and lesser competence in politicians.

Florida might not be a good example. Locally, we were able to move a state representative to the state senate, because he was term limited and we still wanted him.

 

[Avatar4321]

Influence can be gained without a present return of campaign funds or bribes. It can be post term jobs or help to family and so on. Power is limited most by the time you can influence decisions. Term limits!

You change your underwear everyday (hopefully), politicans stink worse.

The problem with term limits is that it insulates politicians from being accountable to the people. If you can be reelected, you are more likely to listen to what the people you represent say than if you know you arent going to be.

 

[Swagger]

Influence can be gained without a present return of campaign funds or bribes. It can be post term jobs or help to family and so on. Power is limited most by the time you can influence decisions. Term limits!

You change your underwear everyday (hopefully), politicans stink worse.

We have term limits in Florida, they've resulted in a higher level of party corruption and influence and lesser competence in politicians.

Due you think that's down to politicians/representitives in Florida having less time to line their pockets than elsewhere in the country? So they spend more time focused on enriching themselves than serving their constituents due to the limited timeframe they have, as opposed to potentially having longer in office to balance - or cover - their dishonesty with official duties?

 

[saveliberty]

Influence can be gained without a present return of campaign funds or bribes. It can be post term jobs or help to family and so on. Power is limited most by the time you can influence decisions. Term limits!

You change your underwear everyday (hopefully), politicans stink worse.

The problem with term limits is that it insulates politicians from being accountable to the people. If you can be reelected, you are more likely to listen to what the people you represent say than if you know you arent going to be.

I hate it when I leave out the public flogging part.

 

[there4eyeM]

There is absolutely no way an armed revolution could 'succeed' (whatever that might mean) in the foreseeable future. The stakes are far too big for those that hold the power to let them go and their means are far too powerful. They are prepared to do whatever is necessary.

An AR15 or AK47 will not do the job. It is much harder and much more complex than that.

It is also the easiest thing in the world.

You may not be able to change a person's mind in a lifetime, but one can change one's own mind in a second.

When people think differently, the revolution will have happened.

(and it will happen too quickly to televise)

 

[catzmeow]

Influence can be gained without a present return of campaign funds or bribes. It can be post term jobs or help to family and so on. Power is limited most by the time you can influence decisions. Term limits!

You change your underwear everyday (hopefully), politicans stink worse.

We have term limits in Florida, they've resulted in a higher level of party corruption and influence and lesser competence in politicians.

Florida might not be a good example. Locally, we were able to move a state representative to the state senate, because he was term limited and we still wanted him.

Florida has had statewide term limits for almost 20 years now, and we're clusterfucked beyond all recognition at this point. I wish people would visit Florida and see exactly how well term limits work before recommending them. We're a freaking banana republic here.

 

[catzmeow]

Influence can be gained without a present return of campaign funds or bribes. It can be post term jobs or help to family and so on. Power is limited most by the time you can influence decisions. Term limits!

You change your underwear everyday (hopefully), politicans stink worse.

The problem with term limits is that it insulates politicians from being accountable to the people. If you can be reelected, you are more likely to listen to what the people you represent say than if you know you arent going to be.

I hate it when I leave out the public flogging part.

I would be happy with reinstating the stocks.

 

[catzmeow]

Influence can be gained without a present return of campaign funds or bribes. It can be post term jobs or help to family and so on. Power is limited most by the time you can influence decisions. Term limits!

You change your underwear everyday (hopefully), politicans stink worse.

The problem with term limits is that it insulates politicians from being accountable to the people. If you can be reelected, you are more likely to listen to what the people you represent say than if you know you arent going to be.

Also, government now manages more complex projects than ever. It takes time to learn how state systems work. Term limits ensure that about the time a politician has learned somethign useful, he/she's out of office.

 

[catzmeow]

Influence can be gained without a present return of campaign funds or bribes. It can be post term jobs or help to family and so on. Power is limited most by the time you can influence decisions. Term limits!

You change your underwear everyday (hopefully), politicans stink worse.

We have term limits in Florida, they've resulted in a higher level of party corruption and influence and lesser competence in politicians.

Due you think that's down to politicians/representitives in Florida having less time to line their pockets than elsewhere in the country? So they spend more time focused on enriching themselves than serving their constituents due to the limited timeframe they have, as opposed to potentially having longer in office to balance - or cover - their dishonesty with official duties?

They have to pander for influence with the party and donors much more rapidly in order to even make it onto the ticket. So, the corruption has shifted from the individual level to the party system. It's harder and more expensive to corrupt 100+ state representatives than to corrupt the leadership of 2 political parties. Exhibit 1: Marco Rubio. Exhibit 2: Rick Scott. Exhibit 3: Bill Nelson

 

[there4eyeM]

Limit campaign spending.
Make it public funded (oh, no, then every candidate would get equal time and people would actually hear of them!).
Use the pocket book against the pocketbook.

 

[dblack]

Limit campaign spending.
Make it public funded (oh, no, then every candidate would get equal time and people would actually hear of them!).
Use the pocket book against the pocketbook.

Ahh... but how do we decide which candidates get "equal" time, and which don't?

 

[there4eyeM]

Details....

but one way would be to have an initial playoff and only keep, say, those that get over five percent.

 

[Liability]

Some say that a good politician is defined as one who stays bought once bought.

Others say that a good politician is one who will not be bought.

But if they can't be bought, then you have no way of measuring whether or not they will stay bought.

So, I don't know.

We probably need the spoils system now more than ever.

Right?

 

[dblack]

Details....

Yup. Where the devil hides...

but one way would be to have an initial playoff and only keep, say, those that get over five percent.

And will campaign spending be controlled for that initial runoff?

 

[Liability]

REVOLUTION!!!! ​

(Disclaimer: This should not now or ever be construed that I am advocating an overthrow of our government. I would just as soon not have black helicopters hovering over the house and I don't want to wind up on the no fly list.)

But for speculation and discussion only:

From time to time in these political conversations, we have one or more members who think we are so completely screwed in this country, the only way out is to scrap the government we have, dust off the Constitution, and start over as it was in the beginning. (Hmmm, that sounds almost Biblical doesn't it?)

Thomas Jefferson is quoted as noting the possibility that such would be necessary from time to time, and the concept is also included in the opening remarks of The Declaration of Independence.:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. . . ."​

What do you think. Deep down where you keep your most heartfelt convictions, fears, and longings, do you harbor such thoughts?

I think Jefferson meant it when he spoke of watering the tree of liberty.

I think the Founders and Framers meant it when they spoke of an armed citizenry as a safeguard against the tendency of government to be tyrannical.

Overthrowing the Brits was all well and good, especially since we replaced their offensive imposition of government by brute force with our more refined and logical system.

But when it comes to the notion of revolution these days, fuck it. I am a loyalist. And what's more, I want to compel our leaders to pay more than mere lip service to the limits we have fashioned for our federal government.

 

[there4eyeM]

"And will campaign spending be controlled for that initial runoff?"

Necessarily.

 

[OODA_Loop]

It's silly to live under a document written 225 years ago. Point blank. Once we understand that it is an imperfect document written by imprefect men, we can agree it needs to be further perfected.

It has and will continue to be.

Except it has always been to grant more freedom........rather than to restrict freedom.