CDZ RIGGED ELECTION: Let's see if we can imagine a new way to gather and count votes

[JoeB131]

An election where trump got more popular votes than the beloved Obama?

I call a fraud

Except Biden got more than Trump. That's how it works.

Uh, yeah, the electorate is a lot bigger than it was in 2008, and more people turned out. That's how you got more votes.

 

[Wyatt earp]

An election where trump got more popular votes than the beloved Obama?

I call a fraud

Except Biden got more than Trump. That's how it works.

Uh, yeah, the electorate is a lot bigger than it was in 2008, and more people turned out. That's how you got more votes.

In just 4 years?

 

[OldLady]

If you get rid of the Electoral College it would transform us from a Republic to a true Democracy. Something that has NEVER worked.

Except there's no evidence for that. You would still have representation in Congress, you would still have state governments. The only thing that would change is we would directly elect the president.

that's it.

Or to put it another way, if you elected by popular vote, of the 59 presidential elections we have had, you would have gotten the exact same results in 54 of them.

Just not seeing a problem.

Because Republicans need the EC to win?

 

[Staidhup]

America is the laughing stock of the world, preaches about democracy, vote integrity, yet has the most antiquated voter validation system.

 

[flacaltenn]

I vote in person, I am old with problems that may at some point require me to vote by mail. there are many people ( like overseas military) who need to vote by mail. So I TOTALY reject those who promote only in person voting. Also would support more poling places & more days or longer hours for voting.

We live in amazingly binary times. We just can't seem to see both lanes of the road.

We have the ability to both open up voting and keep things secure, but doing so would require us to do crazy things like "work together" and "innovate". Allowing a different idea to enter the conversation is confused with capitulation.

I'm guessing that, in the short term, we're going to see more of that sad situation. Maybe we'll innovate at some point, assuming we make it to that point.

Govt is the worst place to look for innovation and excellence.. And keeping voting systems and procedures secure ACCURATE and TRACEABLE is actual more important than convenience.. We're not talking about "phoning it in" kind of convenience when it comes to the LEGAL ACT of casting a ballot.. There's a chain of custody, recording and archiving and handling exceptions that ALL REQUIRE chain of custody..

NEVER EVER should a random THIRD PARTY -- like a "ballot harvestor" enter the picture here or EVER HANDLE the legal document that is "a ballot".. There's simply NO "other side of the street on shit like that.. And you want to "innovate" that direction?

MOST registrar offices CAN NOT HANDLE the current voting equipment maintenance, set-up, verifications. We've allowed the day of voting equipment to be designed BY MORONS who think its a good thing to have an Operating system with spyware and virus protection and comm ports on this stuff. It's so bad, that the OEM equipment managers who are NOT public servants have unfettered access to running the elections... Because Govt SCREWED up the paper trail, security, and accuracy of the equipment by buying the WRONG STUFF...

Day of voting equipment should be STONE STUPID.. Just mark the ballot and tally it.. Doesn't require floating point math and a dual or quadruple processor with all the vulnerabilities that entails.. How we ended up buying such shit is beyond me..



It's not all FRAUD we should be worried about.. It SHOULD BE about the competency of who RUNS the registrar functions and election process. We can't pretend it's as simple as counting pen marks anymore..

There's really not enough time here to have touchy feely jabber about "two lane roads" to SECURE elections in this country.. The situation is actually more dire than most people realize.. Time to quit arguing about presenting ID.. You SHOULD BE ABLE to waltz in to vote in a bathing suit with no ID.. But govt can't figure that out.. Should be SECURED OFF LINE picturess of you STORED on the voting register visible to the poll workers or counters. But that's too exotic for the dolts who run the govt...

This is a PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY of govt and they give it no honor or importance.. That's why no side has confidence in the process anymore...

 

[candycorn]

I vote in person, I am old with problems that may at some point require me to vote by mail. there are many people ( like overseas military) who need to vote by mail. So I TOTALY reject those who promote only in person voting. Also would support more poling places & more days or longer hours for voting.

We live in amazingly binary times. We just can't seem to see both lanes of the road.

We have the ability to both open up voting and keep things secure, but doing so would require us to do crazy things like "work together" and "innovate". Allowing a different idea to enter the conversation is confused with capitulation.

I'm guessing that, in the short term, we're going to see more of that sad situation. Maybe we'll innovate at some point, assuming we make it to that point.

Govt is the worst place to look for innovation and excellence.. And keeping voting systems and procedures secure ACCURATE and TRACEABLE is actual more important than convenience.. We're not talking about "phoning it in" kind of convenience when it comes to the LEGAL ACT of casting a ballot.. There's a chain of custody, recording and archiving and handling exceptions that ALL REQUIRE chain of custody..

NEVER EVER should a random THIRD PARTY -- like a "ballot harvestor" enter the picture here or EVER HANDLE the legal document that is "a ballot".. There's simply NO "other side of the street on shit like that.. And you want to "innovate" that direction?

MOST registrar offices CAN NOT HANDLE the current voting equipment maintenance, set-up, verifications. We've allowed the day of voting equipment to be designed BY MORONS who think its a good thing to have an Operating system with spyware and virus protection and comm ports on this stuff. It's so bad, that the OEM equipment managers who are NOT public servants have unfettered access to running the elections... Because Govt SCREWED up the paper trail, security, and accuracy of the equipment by buying the WRONG STUFF...

Day of voting equipment should be STONE STUPID.. Just mark the ballot and tally it.. Doesn't require floating point math and a dual or quadruple processor with all the vulnerabilities that entails.. How we ended up buying such shit is beyond me..



It's not all FRAUD we should be worried about.. It SHOULD BE about the competency of who RUNS the registrar functions and election process. We can't pretend it's as simple as counting pen marks anymore..

There's really not enough time here to have touchy feely jabber about "two lane roads" to SECURE elections in this country.. The situation is actually more dire than most people realize.. Time to quit arguing about presenting ID.. You SHOULD BE ABLE to waltz in to vote in a bathing suit with no ID.. But govt can't figure that out.. Should be SECURED OFF LINE picturess of you STORED on the voting register visible to the poll workers or counters. But that's too exotic for the dolts who run the govt...

This is a PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY of govt and they give it no honor or importance.. That's why no side has confidence in the process anymore...

All 50 states certified their elections
There was no sizable voter fraud detected much less proven.
The loser--Trump--got more votes than he did last time
The party of the loser--Trump--gained seats in the House of Representatives.
The party of the winner--Biden--lost seats in the House of Representatives.
The alleged fraud on 11/6/20 didn't swing the Senate for the party that won the Oval Office. A subsequent runoff and special election had to be held.

IF you don't have confidence in the process any more, feel free not to vote. But your lack of confidence isn't based on any evidence. It's based on your not liking the outcome of the previous election.

 

[candycorn]

Our electoral system has endured for two plus centuries, because of a very powerful (and at the time unique) concept: the peaceful transfer of power.

That essentially means when a candidate exhausts all legal means of challenging an election, he acknowledges the loss and concedes.

When that doesn't happen, and the candidate instead continues to make baseless claims on the election's integrity, he is taking part in destroying the public's faith in our elections. All without evidence.

Should there be repurcussions on a candidate that does this? Because this too is part of the problem with the 2020 election.

I think our founders made certain assumptions when they brilliantly laid things out, and I don't think we've lived up to those assumptions. They couldn't have anticipated that we'd divide into competing realities like this. How could they?

Ya...there is that. It is mind boggling that after more than two centuries - we are on the Eve of Destruction, of a system that has worked and been the aspiration of much of the world. All it takes is one, smooth talking, ego driven populist who has the ability to read an audience and speak to their anger, and feed it.

Yeah, none of the other 8,000 losers on election day are complaining about voter fraud. Wonder why?

 

[Mac1958]

Right now we have the partisan legislatures from one party in swing states aggressively trying to control and distort our election process.

Job One has to be to find a way to stop that from happening. It flies directly in the face of the notion of "free and fair elections".

I'd think the next step would be to standardize the systems (from election period procedures through audits) for presidential elections.

The founders didn't envision states going rogue like this. They assumed much better of us. They were wrong, and we have to fix it.

 

[JoeB131]

Right now we have the partisan legislatures from one party in swing states aggressively trying to control and distort our election process.

Job One has to be to find a way to stop that from happening. It flies directly in the face of the notion of "free and fair elections".

I'd think the next step would be to standardize the systems (from election period procedures through audits) for presidential elections.

The founders didn't envision states going rogue like this. They assumed much better of us. They were wrong, and we have to fix it.

The F ounders only thought that the franchise should be held by property owning white males.

The only reason why states can go "rogue" is because the Electoral College allows them to.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

get rid of the Electoral College

Republicans will of course oppose this – it’s the only way they’ll win/maintain control of the WH and the only way they can maintain overall minority rule.

 

[JoeB131]

Govt is the worst place to look for innovation and excellence.. And keeping voting systems and procedures secure ACCURATE and TRACEABLE is actual more important than convenience.. We're not talking about "phoning it in" kind of convenience when it comes to the LEGAL ACT of casting a ballot.. There's a chain of custody, recording and archiving and handling exceptions that ALL REQUIRE chain of custody..

NEVER EVER should a random THIRD PARTY -- like a "ballot harvestor" enter the picture here or EVER HANDLE the legal document that is "a ballot".. There's simply NO "other side of the street on shit like that.. And you want to "innovate" that direction?

Sure, why not? Most of this argument is the typical white privilege kind of nonsense. I have the option of taking time off of work to vote, my county can afford the latest voting equipment, we have enough blue haired old ladies to watch the process.

The problem here is your side has gone from 'We can prove there was fraud" to "Well, fraud might have been possible" to "Well, the system could potentially be defrauded."

It's like saying , "I've captured Bigfoot" to "We might be able to catch Bigfoot" to "Well, Bigfoot might actually exist out there, so we need to set up elaborate anti-Bigfoot defenses."

Day of voting equipment should be STONE STUPID.. Just mark the ballot and tally it.. Doesn't require floating point math and a dual or quadruple processor with all the vulnerabilities that entails.. How we ended up buying such shit is beyond me..

Here's why we buy that stuff... It's fast. We want fast counts. Now, to put it in a real life thing, I'm involved in Supply Chain. When we count small parts, we don't get out there and count each and every part. We put the parts in a scale and we weigh them. And frankly, that's usually good enough.

Same thing with voting. We could have a completely accurate count in a month, or we can get a count that is 99% accurate tonight. It really only becomes an issue if that vote is within 1%, and then, yes, we should do a hand count or a hand audit, which is exactly what the five states did.

None of which would have been needed if we weren't still using this backwards system devised by a bunch of slave-owners who slapped together a half-ass compromise so they could go home early. The reality is that the 2020 election wasn't even close. Biden beat Trump by 8 million votes. He'd have probably beaten him by more if most of the big states weren't already decided and more people came out to vote.

There's really not enough time here to have touchy feely jabber about "two lane roads" to SECURE elections in this country.. The situation is actually more dire than most people realize.. Time to quit arguing about presenting ID.. You SHOULD BE ABLE to waltz in to vote in a bathing suit with no ID.. But govt can't figure that out.. Should be SECURED OFF LINE picturess of you STORED on the voting register visible to the poll workers or counters. But that's too exotic for the dolts who run the govt...

Or perhaps it's completely unnecessary. Frankly, last time I voted, I waltzed right in, told them my name and my address, they found my registration in about two minutes and I was able to vote. No need to present an ID, no need to verify my identity.

They are trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Trump lost. All the polls said he was going to lose. We got exactly the expected result.

The flaw that needs to be corrected is how this guy ever got into office to start with, after he clearly showed himself to be unfit and the majority clearly rejected him. Get rid of the electoral college, make the nominating process more open. Require candidates to fully disclose their taxes.

 

[JoeB131]

get rid of the Electoral College

Republicans will of course oppose this – it’s the only way they’ll win/maintain control of the WH and the only way they can maintain overall minority rule.

They'll oppose it up until the first time Texas goes Blue. Then they will be all for getting rid of it.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Let's see if we can imagine a new way to gather and count votes

‘Solutions’ in search of a ‘problem’ that doesn’t exist.

Just because Republicans lie and whine about ‘rigged’ elections and ‘fraud’ whenever they lose an election doesn’t warrant radical changes to the election process.

Indeed, 2020 was the most secure and accurate election in this country’s history; the only problem that needs to be addressed is Republicans enacting reckless, irresponsible, meritless election laws intended to disenfranchise voters and undermine the right to vote.

 

[JoeB131]

An election where trump got more popular votes than the beloved Obama?

I call a fraud

Except Biden got more than Trump. That's how it works.

Uh, yeah, the electorate is a lot bigger than it was in 2008, and more people turned out. That's how you got more votes.

In just 4 years?

Um, it's been 12 years since the 2008 election.

Okay, let's look at total numbers.

Obama got 69 Million votes with 61% turnout and 53% of the vote.

In 2012, Obama got 66 million votes with 58% turnout and 51% of the vote.

In 2016, Hillary got 65 million votes with 60% turnout and 48% of the vote. The electorate was larger, but a lot more people went with third parties. It was still pretty dismal turnout because no one liked either candidate, the polls all said Hillary had it in the bag and a lot of people went third party to protest.

In 2020, Biden got 81 million votes with 67% turnout for 51% of the vote. He got 3% more of the total vote than Hillary in an election with 7% higher turnout. This is because more people realized that this really was a matter of life or death.

What seems inconceivable to me is that Trump got more votes than he did last time. Not only did no one who voted for him seem to learn their lesson after 500,000 dead, a crashed economy and riots in the streets, but an additional 10 million people voted for him. If there was any fraud, it was there. We've voted out better men for failing less epically.

But then you have to just factor in the power of incumbency. Even a complete knob like Gerald Ford got 48% of the vote. Never elected, pardoned Nixon, presided over defeat in Vietnam, couldn't walk up a flight of stairs without stumbling over himself. And 48% of Americans said, "Yeah, let's give that guy a full term."

Incumbents who did lose were guys who found their base undermined by third party challengers - Anderson against Jimmy Carter and Ross Perot against Bush the elder.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

the electorate is a lot bigger than it was in 2008, and more people turned out. That's how you got more votes.

…and that’s how Democrats get elected.

Republicans get elected via voter suppression and undermining the right to vote.

 

[Wyatt earp]

An election where trump got more popular votes than the beloved Obama?

I call a fraud

Except Biden got more than Trump. That's how it works.

Uh, yeah, the electorate is a lot bigger than it was in 2008, and more people turned out. That's how you got more votes.

In just 4 years?

Um, it's been 12 years since the 2008 election.

Okay, let's look at total numbers.

Obama got 69 Million votes with 61% turnout and 53% of the vote.

In 2012, Obama got 66 million votes with 58% turnout and 51% of the vote.

In 2016, Hillary got 65 million votes with 60% turnout and 48% of the vote. The electorate was larger, but a lot more people went with third parties. It was still pretty dismal turnout because no one liked either candidate, the polls all said Hillary had it in the bag and a lot of people went third party to protest.

In 2020, Biden got 81 million votes with 67% turnout for 51% of the vote. He got 3% more of the total vote than Hillary in an election with 7% higher turnout. This is because more people realized that this really was a matter of life or death.

What seems inconceivable to me is that Trump got more votes than he did last time. Not only did no one who voted for him seem to learn their lesson after 500,000 dead, a crashed economy and riots in the streets, but an additional 10 million people voted for him. If there was any fraud, it was there. We've voted out better men for failing less epically.

But then you have to just factor in the power of incumbency. Even a complete knob like Gerald Ford got 48% of the vote. Never elected, pardoned Nixon, presided over defeat in Vietnam, couldn't walk up a flight of stairs without stumbling over himself. And 48% of Americans said, "Yeah, let's give that guy a full term."

Incumbents who did lose were guys who found their base undermined by third party challengers - Anderson against Jimmy Carter and Ross Perot against Bush the elder.

You don't get that many new voters

 

[JoeB131]

You don't get that many new voters

Um, okay, I just took you through the math... and the math says you do.

 

[Coyote]

An election where trump got more popular votes than the beloved Obama?

I call a fraud

Except Biden got more than Trump. That's how it works.

Uh, yeah, the electorate is a lot bigger than it was in 2008, and more people turned out. That's how you got more votes.

In just 4 years?

Um, it's been 12 years since the 2008 election.

Okay, let's look at total numbers.

Obama got 69 Million votes with 61% turnout and 53% of the vote.

In 2012, Obama got 66 million votes with 58% turnout and 51% of the vote.

In 2016, Hillary got 65 million votes with 60% turnout and 48% of the vote. The electorate was larger, but a lot more people went with third parties. It was still pretty dismal turnout because no one liked either candidate, the polls all said Hillary had it in the bag and a lot of people went third party to protest.

In 2020, Biden got 81 million votes with 67% turnout for 51% of the vote. He got 3% more of the total vote than Hillary in an election with 7% higher turnout. This is because more people realized that this really was a matter of life or death.

What seems inconceivable to me is that Trump got more votes than he did last time. Not only did no one who voted for him seem to learn their lesson after 500,000 dead, a crashed economy and riots in the streets, but an additional 10 million people voted for him. If there was any fraud, it was there. We've voted out better men for failing less epically.

But then you have to just factor in the power of incumbency. Even a complete knob like Gerald Ford got 48% of the vote. Never elected, pardoned Nixon, presided over defeat in Vietnam, couldn't walk up a flight of stairs without stumbling over himself. And 48% of Americans said, "Yeah, let's give that guy a full term."

Incumbents who did lose were guys who found their base undermined by third party challengers - Anderson against Jimmy Carter and Ross Perot against Bush the elder.

You don't get that many new voters

You do when you think about it - you have a large generation of young voters coming of age, you also have a serious grassroots get-out-the-vote efforts inspiring many who don't ordinarily vote. You also have a very galvanizing figure (Trump) you love or hate, pushing people to finally vote.

 

[sartre play]

Then answer this, No Republican officeholder has objected to their win on the same day, on the same ballots, using the same election system.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

You don't get that many new voters

I disagree. Studies have shown that of the 22 million dead people who voted for Biden in the 2020 election, over 97% of them were voting for the very first time.

He is extremely popular with the recently departed.