Same bullshit, different decade: What members of the gay rights movement could learn from history

[bendog]

What's really yucky and creepy is this.

Dennis Hastert Hid His Skeletons As He Helped Push GOP s Anti-Gay Agenda

The man Republicans put up to be third in line for the Presidency

And they impeached Clinton

Well not so much that. But the effort to elect W included anti-gay "wedge issues" and propositions, which were led by Rove (who secretly hid his gay father, and Rove may be bisexual himself) and Ken Melman who admittedly is gay. Hassert is icing on the cake, so to speak, because he helped grease the skids for legislation, and stone walled stuff like including gays in hate crimes. If a baker wants to say "I can't in good conscience bake the cake," I think you need to cut him some slack, and just not buy a cake from him, and encourage others to do the same. But, it's beyond creepy to be saying gays should be treated differently than straights, when your closeting your gay!

 

[hortysir]

This sums a lot of liberals in this thread up quite nicely.

Bigotry is the only explanation for being opposed to same sex marriage. No one's come up with a reason that doesn't involve simple bigotry.

Yes they have.
You just choose to dismiss one main reason: simple word definition

Nope. Religious bigotry is still bigotry. Bob Jones University felt they had a religious reason for their prohibitions on interracial dating. It's still bigotry.

This sums a lot of liberals in this thread up quite nicely.

Bigotry is the only explanation for being opposed to same sex marriage. No one's come up with a reason that doesn't involve simple bigotry.

Yes they have.
You just choose to dismiss one main reason: simple word definition

That 'definition' thing is pure nonsense. Blacks were once 'defined' in America as being property. They were also defined as 3/5ths of a person.

Do you think the fight for civil rights and equality for blacks should have been halted in its tracks, never to progress further,

by some bigot holding up a sign with the simple word 'definition' on it?

We certainly disagree. As I'm not hamstrung with your assumptions, I can assess the intention and the harm caused by any given action and glean its morality accordingly. Stealing and oathbreaking cause harm to other people. Homosexuality doesn't.

If a gay couple gets married......nothing happens to you. You're simply unaffected. If a gay couple stole from you, you lose property. And you're most definitely effected.

So the first act wouldn't be immoral or a 'sin' because it causes no harm nor is intended to. While the second is an intentional act to take from you. And would qualify in my opinion.

Thank you for that concession (I think)
But I disagree that one of these things cause no harm in that it is contrary to why I believe we were created as male and female (to go forth and multiply)
Now, mind you, I only speak of the sinfulness of homosexual behavior NOT "gay marriage".
Gays SHOULD have just as much "right" to lose half of their shit in divorce as I do.
I simply object to being called a hateful bigoted homophobe because I don't buy into the hard sell that gay is normal

You can believe that all you want...just like you can believe that left-handed people aren't normal, that Jews aren't normal, that short people aren't normal. Just don't try to legislate against us.

And don't be surprised when you get called a bigot for saying things like "there's something wrong with gays".

Why? Is stating fact now bigoted? Care to compare health profiles of homosexual and heterosexual men? No, of course you dont. You deflect every time I bring this up because you know the answer. Gay kills.

Stating facts is fine. It's not a fact that being gay is wrong...unless you believe being left handed or red haired or Jewish is wrong.

A matching pair of red herrings built out of straw.

Jews are born into it.
Left or right handedness is taught
Acting on homosexual urges is a choice

 

[rightwinger]

This sums a lot of liberals in this thread up quite nicely.

Bigotry is the only explanation for being opposed to same sex marriage. No one's come up with a reason that doesn't involve simple bigotry.

Yes they have.
You just choose to dismiss one main reason: simple word definition

Nope. Religious bigotry is still bigotry. Bob Jones University felt they had a religious reason for their prohibitions on interracial dating. It's still bigotry.

This sums a lot of liberals in this thread up quite nicely.

Bigotry is the only explanation for being opposed to same sex marriage. No one's come up with a reason that doesn't involve simple bigotry.

Yes they have.
You just choose to dismiss one main reason: simple word definition

That 'definition' thing is pure nonsense. Blacks were once 'defined' in America as being property. They were also defined as 3/5ths of a person.

Do you think the fight for civil rights and equality for blacks should have been halted in its tracks, never to progress further,

by some bigot holding up a sign with the simple word 'definition' on it?

Thank you for that concession (I think)
But I disagree that one of these things cause no harm in that it is contrary to why I believe we were created as male and female (to go forth and multiply)
Now, mind you, I only speak of the sinfulness of homosexual behavior NOT "gay marriage".
Gays SHOULD have just as much "right" to lose half of their shit in divorce as I do.
I simply object to being called a hateful bigoted homophobe because I don't buy into the hard sell that gay is normal

You can believe that all you want...just like you can believe that left-handed people aren't normal, that Jews aren't normal, that short people aren't normal. Just don't try to legislate against us.

And don't be surprised when you get called a bigot for saying things like "there's something wrong with gays".

Why? Is stating fact now bigoted? Care to compare health profiles of homosexual and heterosexual men? No, of course you dont. You deflect every time I bring this up because you know the answer. Gay kills.

Stating facts is fine. It's not a fact that being gay is wrong...unless you believe being left handed or red haired or Jewish is wrong.

A matching pair of red herrings built out of straw.

Jews are born into it.
Left or right handedness is taught
Acting on homosexual urges is a choice

When did you choose to be heterosexual?

Did you have a party?

 

[Lilah]

But can you say that, because you don't agree with me, I am not a bigot?

We certainly disagree. As I'm not hamstrung with your assumptions, I can assess the intention and the harm caused by any given action and glean its morality accordingly. Stealing and oathbreaking cause harm to other people. Homosexuality doesn't.

If a gay couple gets married......nothing happens to you. You're simply unaffected. If a gay couple stole from you, you lose property. And you're most definitely effected.

So the first act wouldn't be immoral or a 'sin' because it causes no harm nor is intended to. While the second is an intentional act to take from you. And would qualify in my opinion.

Thank you for that concession (I think)
But I disagree that one of these things cause no harm in that it is contrary to why I believe we were created as male and female (to go forth and multiply)
Now, mind you, I only speak of the sinfulness of homosexual behavior NOT "gay marriage".
Gays SHOULD have just as much "right" to lose half of their shit in divorce as I do.
I simply object to being called a hateful bigoted homophobe because I don't buy into the hard sell that gay is normal

You can believe that all you want...just like you can believe that left-handed people aren't normal, that Jews aren't normal, that short people aren't normal. Just don't try to legislate against us.

And don't be surprised when you get called a bigot for saying things like "there's something wrong with gays".

Why? Is stating fact now bigoted? Care to compare health profiles of homosexual and heterosexual men? No, of course you dont. You deflect every time I bring this up because you know the answer. Gay kills.

Lily Tomlin has been with her partner for over 42 years. Guess what? She's gay.

 

[hortysir]

Thank you for that concession (I think)
But I disagree that one of these things cause no harm in that it is contrary to why I believe we were created as male and female (to go forth and multiply)
Now, mind you, I only speak of the sinfulness of homosexual behavior NOT "gay marriage".
Gays SHOULD have just as much "right" to lose half of their shit in divorce as I do.
I simply object to being called a hateful bigoted homophobe because I don't buy into the hard sell that gay is normal

You can believe that all you want...just like you can believe that left-handed people aren't normal, that Jews aren't normal, that short people aren't normal. Just don't try to legislate against us.

Ok.

Then it's best settled by the courts and/or state legislatures.
Just don't put it on my ballot

We didn't want it on your ballot. Civil rights should never be put up for popular vote.

My state calls for a 60% majority vote, by ballot, for any amendment to the state constitution

Why should you get to vote on who gets to Marry?

Did anyone vote on your marriage?

Because it's our state law that we get a say in constitutional amendments.
About 62% feel that marriage should be defined as being between one man and one woman.
Of course the courts have since over turned it. And that's fine with me.
That's how our systems work.

 

[rightwinger]

You can believe that all you want...just like you can believe that left-handed people aren't normal, that Jews aren't normal, that short people aren't normal. Just don't try to legislate against us.

Ok.

Then it's best settled by the courts and/or state legislatures.
Just don't put it on my ballot

We didn't want it on your ballot. Civil rights should never be put up for popular vote.

My state calls for a 60% majority vote, by ballot, for any amendment to the state constitution

Why should you get to vote on who gets to Marry?

Did anyone vote on your marriage?

Because it's our state law that we get a say in constitutional amendments.
About 62% feel that marriage should be defined as being between one man and one woman.
Of course the courts have since over turned it. And that's fine with me.
That's how our systems work.

Why should a majority have the right to vote on what rights the minority has access to?

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for supper

 

[hortysir]

Bigotry is the only explanation for being opposed to same sex marriage. No one's come up with a reason that doesn't involve simple bigotry.

Yes they have.
You just choose to dismiss one main reason: simple word definition

Nope. Religious bigotry is still bigotry. Bob Jones University felt they had a religious reason for their prohibitions on interracial dating. It's still bigotry.

This sums a lot of liberals in this thread up quite nicely.

Bigotry is the only explanation for being opposed to same sex marriage. No one's come up with a reason that doesn't involve simple bigotry.

Yes they have.
You just choose to dismiss one main reason: simple word definition

That 'definition' thing is pure nonsense. Blacks were once 'defined' in America as being property. They were also defined as 3/5ths of a person.

Do you think the fight for civil rights and equality for blacks should have been halted in its tracks, never to progress further,

by some bigot holding up a sign with the simple word 'definition' on it?

You can believe that all you want...just like you can believe that left-handed people aren't normal, that Jews aren't normal, that short people aren't normal. Just don't try to legislate against us.

And don't be surprised when you get called a bigot for saying things like "there's something wrong with gays".

Why? Is stating fact now bigoted? Care to compare health profiles of homosexual and heterosexual men? No, of course you dont. You deflect every time I bring this up because you know the answer. Gay kills.

Stating facts is fine. It's not a fact that being gay is wrong...unless you believe being left handed or red haired or Jewish is wrong.

A matching pair of red herrings built out of straw.

Jews are born into it.
Left or right handedness is taught
Acting on homosexual urges is a choice

When did you choose to be heterosexual?

Did you have a party?

I wasn't talking about attraction.
I said acting on urges

 

[hortysir]

Ok.

Then it's best settled by the courts and/or state legislatures.
Just don't put it on my ballot

We didn't want it on your ballot. Civil rights should never be put up for popular vote.

My state calls for a 60% majority vote, by ballot, for any amendment to the state constitution

Why should you get to vote on who gets to Marry?

Did anyone vote on your marriage?

Because it's our state law that we get a say in constitutional amendments.
About 62% feel that marriage should be defined as being between one man and one woman.
Of course the courts have since over turned it. And that's fine with me.
That's how our systems work.

Why should a majority have the right to vote on what rights the minority has access to?

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for supper

Don't move to Florida

 

[JakeStarkey]

Same-Sex Marriage, Gay Rights
Civil Rights

CNN/ORC Poll. May 29-31, 2015. N=1,025 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.

."Do you think gays and lesbians do or do not have a constitutional right to get married and have their marriage recognized by law as valid?"

.Do have a right Do not have a right Unsure
% % %
5/29-31/15
63 33 4

2/12-15/15
63 36 1

 

[JakeStarkey]

Same-Sex Marriage, Gay Rights
Civil Rights

CNN/ORC Poll. May 29-31, 2015. N=1,025 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.

."Do you think gays and lesbians do or do not have a constitutional right to get married and have their marriage recognized by law as valid?"

.Do have a right Do not have a right Unsure
% % %
5/29-31/15
63 33 4

2/12-15/15
63 36 1

Tis what is.

 

[NYcarbineer]

This sums a lot of liberals in this thread up quite nicely.

Bigotry is the only explanation for being opposed to same sex marriage. No one's come up with a reason that doesn't involve simple bigotry.

Yes they have.
You just choose to dismiss one main reason: simple word definition

Nope. Religious bigotry is still bigotry. Bob Jones University felt they had a religious reason for their prohibitions on interracial dating. It's still bigotry.

This sums a lot of liberals in this thread up quite nicely.

Bigotry is the only explanation for being opposed to same sex marriage. No one's come up with a reason that doesn't involve simple bigotry.

Yes they have.
You just choose to dismiss one main reason: simple word definition

That 'definition' thing is pure nonsense. Blacks were once 'defined' in America as being property. They were also defined as 3/5ths of a person.

Do you think the fight for civil rights and equality for blacks should have been halted in its tracks, never to progress further,

by some bigot holding up a sign with the simple word 'definition' on it?

Thank you for that concession (I think)
But I disagree that one of these things cause no harm in that it is contrary to why I believe we were created as male and female (to go forth and multiply)
Now, mind you, I only speak of the sinfulness of homosexual behavior NOT "gay marriage".
Gays SHOULD have just as much "right" to lose half of their shit in divorce as I do.
I simply object to being called a hateful bigoted homophobe because I don't buy into the hard sell that gay is normal

You can believe that all you want...just like you can believe that left-handed people aren't normal, that Jews aren't normal, that short people aren't normal. Just don't try to legislate against us.

And don't be surprised when you get called a bigot for saying things like "there's something wrong with gays".

Why? Is stating fact now bigoted? Care to compare health profiles of homosexual and heterosexual men? No, of course you dont. You deflect every time I bring this up because you know the answer. Gay kills.

Stating facts is fine. It's not a fact that being gay is wrong...unless you believe being left handed or red haired or Jewish is wrong.

A matching pair of red herrings built out of straw.

Jews are born into it.
Left or right handedness is taught
Acting on homosexual urges is a choice

So then must be acting on heterosexual urges.

 

[bodecea]

But can you say that, because you don't agree with me, I am not a bigot?

We certainly disagree. As I'm not hamstrung with your assumptions, I can assess the intention and the harm caused by any given action and glean its morality accordingly. Stealing and oathbreaking cause harm to other people. Homosexuality doesn't.

If a gay couple gets married......nothing happens to you. You're simply unaffected. If a gay couple stole from you, you lose property. And you're most definitely effected.

So the first act wouldn't be immoral or a 'sin' because it causes no harm nor is intended to. While the second is an intentional act to take from you. And would qualify in my opinion.

Thank you for that concession (I think)
But I disagree that one of these things cause no harm in that it is contrary to why I believe we were created as male and female (to go forth and multiply)
Now, mind you, I only speak of the sinfulness of homosexual behavior NOT "gay marriage".
Gays SHOULD have just as much "right" to lose half of their shit in divorce as I do.
I simply object to being called a hateful bigoted homophobe because I don't buy into the hard sell that gay is normal

You can believe that all you want...just like you can believe that left-handed people aren't normal, that Jews aren't normal, that short people aren't normal. Just don't try to legislate against us.

And don't be surprised when you get called a bigot for saying things like "there's something wrong with gays".

Why? Is stating fact now bigoted? Care to compare health profiles of homosexual and heterosexual men? No, of course you dont. You deflect every time I bring this up because you know the answer. Gay kills.

No...it does not any more than being straight kills.

 

[NYcarbineer]

And don't be surprised when you get called a bigot for saying things like "there's something wrong with gays".

Why? Is stating fact now bigoted? Care to compare health profiles of homosexual and heterosexual men? No, of course you dont. You deflect every time I bring this up because you know the answer. Gay kills.

Stating facts is fine. It's not a fact that being gay is wrong...unless you believe being left handed or red haired or Jewish is wrong.

Can you ever be honest and straight (so to speak)? Is it some inability you have to read and understand simple sentences?
He wrote that there was something wrong with gay people. That is not the same as "being gay is wrong." He might think that as well, and probably does. But that isnt what his post was concerned with. You understand the difference, right?

Neither is true. Gay is not wrong and there's nothing wrong with being gay...anymore than its "wrong" to have red hair or be Jewish.

OK so the answer to my question is No, you cannot be honest.
No one died from being left handed.

But they've died from giving birth.

 

[bodecea]

This sums a lot of liberals in this thread up quite nicely.

Bigotry is the only explanation for being opposed to same sex marriage. No one's come up with a reason that doesn't involve simple bigotry.

Yes they have.
You just choose to dismiss one main reason: simple word definition

Nope. Religious bigotry is still bigotry. Bob Jones University felt they had a religious reason for their prohibitions on interracial dating. It's still bigotry.

This sums a lot of liberals in this thread up quite nicely.

Bigotry is the only explanation for being opposed to same sex marriage. No one's come up with a reason that doesn't involve simple bigotry.

Yes they have.
You just choose to dismiss one main reason: simple word definition

That 'definition' thing is pure nonsense. Blacks were once 'defined' in America as being property. They were also defined as 3/5ths of a person.

Do you think the fight for civil rights and equality for blacks should have been halted in its tracks, never to progress further,

by some bigot holding up a sign with the simple word 'definition' on it?

Thank you for that concession (I think)
But I disagree that one of these things cause no harm in that it is contrary to why I believe we were created as male and female (to go forth and multiply)
Now, mind you, I only speak of the sinfulness of homosexual behavior NOT "gay marriage".
Gays SHOULD have just as much "right" to lose half of their shit in divorce as I do.
I simply object to being called a hateful bigoted homophobe because I don't buy into the hard sell that gay is normal

You can believe that all you want...just like you can believe that left-handed people aren't normal, that Jews aren't normal, that short people aren't normal. Just don't try to legislate against us.

And don't be surprised when you get called a bigot for saying things like "there's something wrong with gays".

Why? Is stating fact now bigoted? Care to compare health profiles of homosexual and heterosexual men? No, of course you dont. You deflect every time I bring this up because you know the answer. Gay kills.

Stating facts is fine. It's not a fact that being gay is wrong...unless you believe being left handed or red haired or Jewish is wrong.

A matching pair of red herrings built out of straw.

Jews are born into it.

A choice

Left or right handedness is taught

No, and indications that trying to force a left-handed person to go right handed messes them up.

Acting on homosexual urges is a choice

Acting on heterosexual urges is a choice also......what about the urges themselves? Are your urges a choice? Always been a choice to you?

 

[bodecea]

We didn't want it on your ballot. Civil rights should never be put up for popular vote.

My state calls for a 60% majority vote, by ballot, for any amendment to the state constitution

Why should you get to vote on who gets to Marry?

Did anyone vote on your marriage?

Because it's our state law that we get a say in constitutional amendments.
About 62% feel that marriage should be defined as being between one man and one woman.
Of course the courts have since over turned it. And that's fine with me.
That's how our systems work.

Why should a majority have the right to vote on what rights the minority has access to?

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for supper

Don't move to Florida

Well, it will be ok after the end of this month.

 

[g5000]

Why? Is stating fact now bigoted? Care to compare health profiles of homosexual and heterosexual men? No, of course you dont. You deflect every time I bring this up because you know the answer. Gay kills.

Please explain how two men in a monogamous marriage kills.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Why? Is stating fact now bigoted? Care to compare health profiles of homosexual and heterosexual men? No, of course you dont. You deflect every time I bring this up because you know the answer. Gay kills.

Please explain how two men in a monogamous marriage kills.

Hetero kills. All the time.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

This sums a lot of liberals in this thread up quite nicely.

Bigotry is the only explanation for being opposed to same sex marriage. No one's come up with a reason that doesn't involve simple bigotry.

Yes they have.
You just choose to dismiss one main reason: simple word definition

Nope. Religious bigotry is still bigotry. Bob Jones University felt they had a religious reason for their prohibitions on interracial dating. It's still bigotry.

This sums a lot of liberals in this thread up quite nicely.

Bigotry is the only explanation for being opposed to same sex marriage. No one's come up with a reason that doesn't involve simple bigotry.

Yes they have.
You just choose to dismiss one main reason: simple word definition

That 'definition' thing is pure nonsense. Blacks were once 'defined' in America as being property. They were also defined as 3/5ths of a person.

Do you think the fight for civil rights and equality for blacks should have been halted in its tracks, never to progress further,

by some bigot holding up a sign with the simple word 'definition' on it?

Thank you for that concession (I think)
But I disagree that one of these things cause no harm in that it is contrary to why I believe we were created as male and female (to go forth and multiply)
Now, mind you, I only speak of the sinfulness of homosexual behavior NOT "gay marriage".
Gays SHOULD have just as much "right" to lose half of their shit in divorce as I do.
I simply object to being called a hateful bigoted homophobe because I don't buy into the hard sell that gay is normal

You can believe that all you want...just like you can believe that left-handed people aren't normal, that Jews aren't normal, that short people aren't normal. Just don't try to legislate against us.

And don't be surprised when you get called a bigot for saying things like "there's something wrong with gays".

Why? Is stating fact now bigoted? Care to compare health profiles of homosexual and heterosexual men? No, of course you dont. You deflect every time I bring this up because you know the answer. Gay kills.

Stating facts is fine. It's not a fact that being gay is wrong...unless you believe being left handed or red haired or Jewish is wrong.

A matching pair of red herrings built out of straw.

Jews are born into it.
Left or right handedness is taught
Acting on homosexual urges is a choice

A choice entitled to Constitutional protections. (Lawrence v. Texas)

Whether homosexuality manifests as a consequence of birth or choice has no bearing whatsoever on the merits of the issue, both are equally entitled to the protected liberty of choice as guaranteed by the 14th Amendment.

 

[g5000]

Acting on homosexual urges is a choice

So then must be acting on heterosexual urges.

True, in both cases.

However, which gender one feels those urges towards is not a choice.

 

[g5000]

A black man "chooses" to be attracted to a white woman and wants to marry her, and the bigots offered up the identical objections about the definition of marriage, it being forbidden by the Bible, the sanctity of the tradition which had always forbade such unions, the moral decline of America if this was allowed, etc., etc., etc.

Same bullshit, different decade.