Sanders: Universal Healthcare and Free College Aren’t Radical Ideas, They Are ‘Human Rights’

[Uncensored2008]

dblack,

I wouldn't use Somalia as example where Libertarianism would bring you. South Africa is better example.

South Africa is a nation of have and have nots... It is quite Right Wing in the laws... It is also a third world country.

Crime is awful and very dangerous. There is poor public healthcare...

People (1st worlders) live on compounds in gated communities surrounded by armed guards and electric fencing.

Sheepboi;

South Africa was a first world nation under De Klerk. What happened that made it third world (it is not, really)?

Is not the ANC socialist? Hasn't SA been under the rule of a socialist government for over 20 years? Why would it degrade to a 3rd world shit hole instead of turning into paradise?

{
The African National Congress (ANC) is the Republic of South Africa's governing social democratic political party. It has been the ruling party of post-apartheid South Africa on the national level since 1994, including the election of Nelson Mandela as president from 1994-1999. In the 2004 the ANC won 69.7% of the votes, in the 2009 general election it won 65.9% of the votes, and in 2014 it won 62.15% of the votes.

The ANC defines itself as a "disciplined force of the left",[3] and it has been supported by its Tripartite Alliance with the Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU) and the South African Communist Party (SACP), since the establishment of multi-racial democracy in April 1994.}

African National Congress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Disir]

It's coming. And you are free to pack your shit up and move to free market paradise: Somalia. This is not a debate. Innit?

I'm curious about something. The "Somalia" thing has become a battle-cry for some critics of libertarianism, and I'm curious if you really think it represents a libertarian ideal. If you do, I can only tell you that you've badly misconstrued what libertarians are about. We're not anarchists. Even those of us who support the most radical limitations on state government are opposed to the brutal condition of perpetual civil war that exists in Somalia.

Rule of law is actually a vital component of a libertarian society. In fact, what we find most objectionable about modern corporatist government is that it dismisses rule of law in favor of balancing the "interests" of competing power blocs.

If "Somalia!" is just a "nuclear option", to employ when you're fed up with an argument, fine. I won't begrudge you that. Libertarians and conservatives do something similar when they evoke fascism to criticize liberals. But if you really think Somalia is the epitome of libertarian values you should do some reading.

Dblack,

It's interesting that you would use Milton Friedman's come back line for the free market failure in Russia. Rule of Law. That's just crazy. It's that law which can be purchased. Incidentally, it's why free market and communism are chalked up to pretty on paper but never plays out well.

We didn't start the Somalia is a free market paradise. A Libertarian named Michael van Notten did. He was a founder of the Libertarian Center. Mises Institute and others have also wrote on it.

 

[SAYIT]

I don't need to go looking for someone to lie and spew propaganda at me. I already have the lefties on this message board...

Oh, like your little personal interest stories and feelings that are supposed to be considered fact as if you, yourself, are a source? Get real, bimbo. Your tragic life as a youth is not a source. Your windy little odes to capitalism are lacking...

From a May 2015 Ipsos Reid poll:

SITUATION CRITICAL: CANADIANS GIVE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM A FAILING GRADE

Raising Canada’s healthcare system back to world-class status provokes major discussion at National Health Leadership Conference in Charlottetown, PEI, June 15-16, 2015


"A Report on Canadian’s Expectations of the HealthCare System revealed today that 70% of Canadians are very worried about falling through the cracks, especially when it comes to critical areas such as mental health, care of seniors, palliative care and hospital safety.

The report was released today by HealthCareCAN and the Canadian College of Health Leaders at the National Health Leadership Conference (NHLC) in Charlottetown, PEI.


Fear of falling through the cracks is highest in the Atlantic provinces and Quebec (79%) and lowest in Alberta (59%)."

http://www.healthcarecan.ca/wp-cont...on-Expectations-of-the-Health-Care-System.pdf

 

[dblack]

It's coming. And you are free to pack your shit up and move to free market paradise: Somalia. This is not a debate. Innit?

I'm curious about something. The "Somalia" thing has become a battle-cry for some critics of libertarianism, and I'm curious if you really think it represents a libertarian ideal. If you do, I can only tell you that you've badly misconstrued what libertarians are about. We're not anarchists. Even those of us who support the most radical limitations on state government are opposed to the brutal condition of perpetual civil war that exists in Somalia.

Rule of law is actually a vital component of a libertarian society. In fact, what we find most objectionable about modern corporatist government is that it dismisses rule of law in favor of balancing the "interests" of competing power blocs.

If "Somalia!" is just a "nuclear option", to employ when you're fed up with an argument, fine. I won't begrudge you that. Libertarians and conservatives do something similar when they evoke fascism to criticize liberals. But if you really think Somalia is the epitome of libertarian values you should do some reading.

Dblack,

It's interesting that you would use Milton Friedman's come back line for the free market failure in Russia. Rule of Law. That's just crazy. It's that law which can be purchased. Incidentally, it's why free market and communism are chalked up to pretty on paper but never plays out well.

I'm not sure what what "Milton Friedman's come back line" refers to. What is it you think is "crazy" here?

We didn't start the Somalia is a free market paradise. A Libertarian named Michael van Notten did. He was a founder of the Libertarian Center. Mises Institute and others have also wrote on it.

I care who started it, the notion that modern Somalia is a libertarian paradise is just ignorant. As I said, if evoking Somalia is just a go-to insult when you've got nothing else, have at it. Otherwise, it's not to be take seriously.

 

[Disir]

I don't need to go looking for someone to lie and spew propaganda at me. I already have the lefties on this message board...

Oh, like your little personal interest stories and feelings that are supposed to be considered fact as if you, yourself, are a source? Get real, bimbo. Your tragic life as a youth is not a source. Your windy little odes to capitalism are lacking...

From a May 2015 Ipsos Reid poll:

SITUATION CRITICAL: CANADIANS GIVE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM A FAILING GRADE

Raising Canada’s healthcare system back to world-class status provokes major discussion at National Health Leadership Conference in Charlottetown, PEI, June 15-16, 2015


"A Report on Canadian’s Expectations of the HealthCare System revealed today that 70% of Canadians are very worried about falling through the cracks, especially when it comes to critical areas such as mental health, care of seniors, palliative care and hospital safety.

The report was released today by HealthCareCAN and the Canadian College of Health Leaders at the National Health Leadership Conference (NHLC) in Charlottetown, PEI.


Fear of falling through the cracks is highest in the Atlantic provinces and Quebec (79%) and lowest in Alberta (59%)."

http://www.healthcarecan.ca/wp-cont...on-Expectations-of-the-Health-Care-System.pdf

That doesn't tell me anything except IPSO was hired to gauge expectations.

 

[Disir]

I'm not sure what what "Milton Friedman's come back line" refers to. What is it you think is "crazy" here?

It's a reference to the free market failure in Russia and his response. It's absolutely insane coming from a man that had been the most destructive element to nation-states to have this type of after thought.

The real insanity is......who is Pete Peterson? Who are the Koch brothers? How about the Heritage Foundation?

I care who started it, the notion that modern Somalia is a libertarian paradise is just ignorant. As I said, if evoking Somalia is just a go-to insult when you've got nothing else, have at it. Otherwise, it's not to be take seriously.

One true Scotsman already? Are we picking and choosing our Libertarians here?

 

[Rustic]

No, they are not... I want to pay my own way.

I don't need any help from a progressive/socialist whack job.

 

[SAYIT]

I don't need to go looking for someone to lie and spew propaganda at me. I already have the lefties on this message board...

Oh, like your little personal interest stories and feelings that are supposed to be considered fact as if you, yourself, are a source? Get real, bimbo. Your tragic life as a youth is not a source. Your windy little odes to capitalism are lacking...

From a May 2015 Ipsos Reid poll:

SITUATION CRITICAL: CANADIANS GIVE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM A FAILING GRADE

Raising Canada’s healthcare system back to world-class status provokes major discussion at National Health Leadership Conference in Charlottetown, PEI, June 15-16, 2015


"A Report on Canadian’s Expectations of the HealthCare System revealed today that 70% of Canadians are very worried about falling through the cracks, especially when it comes to critical areas such as mental health, care of seniors, palliative care and hospital safety.

The report was released today by HealthCareCAN and the Canadian College of Health Leaders at the National Health Leadership Conference (NHLC) in Charlottetown, PEI.


Fear of falling through the cracks is highest in the Atlantic provinces and Quebec (79%) and lowest in Alberta (59%)."

http://www.healthcarecan.ca/wp-cont...on-Expectations-of-the-Health-Care-System.pdf

That doesn't tell me anything except IPSO was hired to gauge expectations.

That's all you want to glean from the survey because the info does not support your POV.

Yes, feel free to cover your eyes and ears and hum a few bars of the Worker's Paradise Theme Song but my point remains intact ... Cowboy Tex's claim that gov't-run healthcare is better than our private system is baseless and the 130,000 Canadians who came to the US between 2010 & 2012 for med care proved just how baseless that claim is.

 

[SAYIT]

No, they are not... I want to pay my own way.

I don't need any help from a progressive/socialist whack job.

To those of us with a sense of personal pride and independence and even just a lick of self-reliance your sentiment makes perfect sense.

To those with none of the aforementioned, not so much.

 

[LogikAndReazon]

How many "human rights" can progressives invent ?

 

[dblack]

I'm not sure what what "Milton Friedman's come back line" refers to. What is it you think is "crazy" here?

It's a reference to the free market failure in Russia and his response. It's absolutely insane coming from a man that had been the most destructive element to nation-states to have this type of after thought.

The real insanity is......who is Pete Peterson? Who are the Koch brothers? How about the Heritage Foundation?

I care who started it, the notion that modern Somalia is a libertarian paradise is just ignorant. As I said, if evoking Somalia is just a go-to insult when you've got nothing else, have at it. Otherwise, it's not to be take seriously.

One true Scotsman already? Are we picking and choosing our Libertarians here?

Not really that, just pointing out the folly of guilt-by-association. If you're trying to make the case that Somalia has applied libertarian policies, and that those policies have created their state of mayhem and brutality, please keep trying. But no one ever does that. They just claim that a libertarian somewhere spoke fondly of Somalia, and leave it at that. It's empty rhetoric.

I'm sure I could find Democrat and Republican leaders who have failed the public trust, and then claim that their failures prove that the policies of those two parties are worthless (and I realize that this is popular argument technique of partisans), but it's not really persuasive. There's nothing expressed or implied in libertarian values that endorses the coercive bullying at the heart of Somalia's dysfunction. In point of fact, it's everything we oppose.

 

[Papageorgio]

The Pacific Research Institute (PRI), officially the "Pacific Research Institute for Public Policy," is a think tank founded in 1979 whose stated vision is the promotion of "the principles of individual freedom and personal responsibility. The Institute believes these principles are best encouraged through policies that emphasize a free economy, private initiative, and limited government." The institute is a 501(c)3 non-profit corporation, and had $4.8 million in revenue in 2012.[1] The Pacific Research Institute has associated with other think-tanks like the American Enterprise Institute and the Cato Institute, including filing joint briefs in major legal cases.

PRI has received over $1.6 million in donations from the Koch family foundations since 1986, $1.5 million from the Koch conduits DonorsTrust and Donors Capital Fund, and millions from other right-wing foundations, including the Sarah Scaife Foundation, the Searle Freedom Trust, and the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation.
Pacific Research Institute - SourceWatch

Pacific Research Institute. Now there is a trusted source.

So can you explain why Canadians who can afford to opt out of their national system and come to the US for health care do so?

The US Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions thought enough of Pipes to hear her testimony on the not-so-wonderfulness of gov't run healthcare. Just because she doesn't work at Socialists-R-Us doesn't mean she doesn't know her stuff.
In fact ...

I was listening to three ham radio operators. All three were Canadian. All three were in their 70s. Health care came up because one just had a hip replacement. All three had long experience with the health care system.

All of them had nothing but praise for their system.

Unsolicited, unbiased, private conversation.

Glad they like it. My father had knee surgery, he has nothing but praise for the U.S. systems.

 

[Uncensored2008]

How many "human rights" can progressives invent ?

More importantly, how many civil rights can they crush?

 

[P F Tinmore]

U.S. Uncut ^ | September 27, 2015 | Hugh Wharton
This interview is amazing.As the Bernie Sanders campaign surges, the socialist senator continues to bring the national conversation back from the right after 30 years of bellicose class war rhetoric. In the clip below, he shames those (including Jeb Bush) who would cut taxes for the rich while stripping Social Security. Sanders states clearly that every other industrialized country invests in their own citizens and children and it’s high time that we followed suit. While Sanders is heavily-criticized for identifying as a democratic socialist, he embraces the label. Sanders says countries that abide by the principles of democratic socialism, like...

If Bernie's iq reaches 50 he should sell.

Nothing is free Bernie.

Roads are not free.

Why do you pay for them.

 

[Vigilante]

Another week or 2 and Sanders will have to fight to see which one of the candidates is more logical.... there is NO factual information given out by a NeoCommie candidate!

 

[Misty]

U.S. Uncut ^ | September 27, 2015 | Hugh Wharton
This interview is amazing.As the Bernie Sanders campaign surges, the socialist senator continues to bring the national conversation back from the right after 30 years of bellicose class war rhetoric. In the clip below, he shames those (including Jeb Bush) who would cut taxes for the rich while stripping Social Security. Sanders states clearly that every other industrialized country invests in their own citizens and children and it’s high time that we followed suit. While Sanders is heavily-criticized for identifying as a democratic socialist, he embraces the label. Sanders says countries that abide by the principles of democratic socialism, like...

If Bernie's iq reaches 50 he should sell.

Nothing is free Bernie.

Roads are not free.

Why do you pay for them.

Lol why do liberals hate cars but love roads?

Bernie is saying free this free that. But it's not free. Americans pay for things the government promises.

 

[NightFox]

Bernie Sanders is like a college professor I once had, didn't agree with anything he said but still found him a lovable old so and so...

That being said, I'd be the first one to volunteer to organize a mission to rescue old Bernie from the 1960's.

 

[Disir]

I'm not sure what what "Milton Friedman's come back line" refers to. What is it you think is "crazy" here?

It's a reference to the free market failure in Russia and his response. It's absolutely insane coming from a man that had been the most destructive element to nation-states to have this type of after thought.

The real insanity is......who is Pete Peterson? Who are the Koch brothers? How about the Heritage Foundation?

I care who started it, the notion that modern Somalia is a libertarian paradise is just ignorant. As I said, if evoking Somalia is just a go-to insult when you've got nothing else, have at it. Otherwise, it's not to be take seriously.

One true Scotsman already? Are we picking and choosing our Libertarians here?

Not really that, just pointing out the folly of guilt-by-association. If you're trying to make the case that Somalia has applied libertarian policies, and that those policies have created their state of mayhem and brutality, please keep trying. But no one ever does that. They just claim that a libertarian somewhere spoke fondly of Somalia, and leave it at that. It's empty rhetoric.

I'm sure I could find Democrat and Republican leaders who have failed the public trust, and then claim that their failures prove that the policies of those two parties are worthless (and I realize that this is popular argument technique of partisans), but it's not really persuasive. There's nothing expressed or implied in libertarian values that endorses the coercive bullying at the heart of Somalia's dysfunction. In point of fact, it's everything we oppose.

I didn't make the case. Michael van Notten did. His argument was that Somalia didn't need a legislative body because they operated by customary law.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Law-Somalis-Foundation-Development/dp/156902250X&tag=ff0d01-20

http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/~jnarveso/TeachingMaterials/LALL Political Phil/Somali law.pdf

The Somali Way: Rule of Law without the State

Right. It's ok that you dislike it or disagree with it.

 

[Disir]

I don't need to go looking for someone to lie and spew propaganda at me. I already have the lefties on this message board...

Oh, like your little personal interest stories and feelings that are supposed to be considered fact as if you, yourself, are a source? Get real, bimbo. Your tragic life as a youth is not a source. Your windy little odes to capitalism are lacking...

From a May 2015 Ipsos Reid poll:

SITUATION CRITICAL: CANADIANS GIVE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM A FAILING GRADE

Raising Canada’s healthcare system back to world-class status provokes major discussion at National Health Leadership Conference in Charlottetown, PEI, June 15-16, 2015


"A Report on Canadian’s Expectations of the HealthCare System revealed today that 70% of Canadians are very worried about falling through the cracks, especially when it comes to critical areas such as mental health, care of seniors, palliative care and hospital safety.

The report was released today by HealthCareCAN and the Canadian College of Health Leaders at the National Health Leadership Conference (NHLC) in Charlottetown, PEI.


Fear of falling through the cracks is highest in the Atlantic provinces and Quebec (79%) and lowest in Alberta (59%)."

http://www.healthcarecan.ca/wp-cont...on-Expectations-of-the-Health-Care-System.pdf

That doesn't tell me anything except IPSO was hired to gauge expectations.

That's all you want to glean from the survey because the info does not support your POV.

Yes, feel free to cover your eyes and ears and hum a few bars of the Worker's Paradise Theme Song but my point remains intact ... Cowboy Tex's claim that gov't-run healthcare is better than our private system is baseless and the 130,000 Canadians who came to the US between 2010 & 2012 for med care proved just how baseless that claim is.

You have a limited survey based on emotions not fact.

 

[auditor0007]

U.S. Uncut ^ | September 27, 2015 | Hugh Wharton
This interview is amazing.As the Bernie Sanders campaign surges, the socialist senator continues to bring the national conversation back from the right after 30 years of bellicose class war rhetoric. In the clip below, he shames those (including Jeb Bush) who would cut taxes for the rich while stripping Social Security. Sanders states clearly that every other industrialized country invests in their own citizens and children and it’s high time that we followed suit. While Sanders is heavily-criticized for identifying as a democratic socialist, he embraces the label. Sanders says countries that abide by the principles of democratic socialism, like...

And what socialist country that you know of have tax rates of 90%? You and your ilk are not very bright.