Second Amendment advocates would this change your mind?

[2aguy]

It doesn't. There is currently no system for people to temporarily and voluntarily hand in their guns for safekeeping if they are suicidal.



It is the actual reason why a lower proportion of their homicides are committed with guns.



It shouldn't be a surprise. Countries with fewer guns have a lower percentage of their homicides committed with guns.



Strong social safety nets are not magic.



They have strong social safety nets, which reduce poverty, which reduces crime rates including homicides.



Not at all. Their strong social safety nets reduce the number of homicides that occur there.



Because their strong social safety nets reduce poverty, and thus reduce their crime rates.



We don't have a strong social safety net.



No. I think the French have a strong social safety net.



True. But a bomb still would have worked had he not had access to guns.

Note also that he was only able to kill as many as he did because he used bump stocks, which are now illegal (although the Supreme Court has yet to rule on the Constitutionally of that illegality).

Without bump stocks he would not have been able to harm nearly as many as he did.



True. But a truck still would have worked had he not had access to guns.

And again, he would not have been able to do it with guns without bump stocks.



Check again. Such massacres do occur in those countries:

2016 Nice truck attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

France………increasing gun violence…….

Three dead in Marseille shootout: 'guns are too easy to buy' says mayor

A police investigation is underway after two people were shot dead, and a third burnt alive on Saturday evening in the southern French city of Marseille. It's the fourth death linked to gun violence this…

www.rfi.fr

 

[Open Bolt]

I hate to disagree with you, but the criminals in Europe have access and use fully automatic military rifles and grenades …they simply don’t choose to commit murder as often as our criminals do……in fact Sweden, of all countries has a growing gun murder rate…and their criminals use grenades like confetti…….
The preferred weapon of European criminals is the fully automatic military weapon……..something American criminals don’t use……..

I don't know that you are disagreeing with me. My position is that if a weapon is available, it will be used. If it is unavailable, it will not be used.

The social safety net? It is failing in Europe…..the rates of fatherless homes has reached the point that their teens are now more violent…..add to that the 3rd immigrants who now control their drug trafficking and they don’t care about western values or laws…and they don’t fear the police….

That's going to increase their homicide rates.

France………increasing gun violence…….

Three dead in Marseille shootout: 'guns are too easy to buy' says mayor

A police investigation is underway after two people were shot dead, and a third burnt alive on Saturday evening in the southern French city of Marseille. It's the fourth death linked to gun violence this…

www.rfi.fr

I hope they are able to stop that mayor from taking their guns away.

 

[Colin norris]

Fuck off you have no opinion here

Hello rambo. Did he upset you? Ooooooh go and tell mum he's a naughty boy.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

It doesn't. There is currently no system for people to temporarily and voluntarily hand in their guns for safekeeping if they are suicidal.

Really? People can't sell their guns and then buy more guns? People are FORCED to keep the guns they buy? I honestly didn't know that! It sounds made up.

Strong social safety nets are not magic.

Do you support expanding welfare and improving them?

If we are to believe that it is inner city ghettos where the shooting happens (as we've been told SO MANY TIMES) then eliminating that level of poverty must surely make a difference.

But no one ever puts their money where their mouth is. Either it's all the mentally ill shooting people or it's the poors. But either way it will COST to offset the problem. And most gun advocates don't see the connection so they won't pay extra for their hobby. They just like to USE the mentally ill and the poor as scapegoats so no one can talk about guns.

They have strong social safety nets, which reduce poverty, which reduces crime rates including homicides.

Agreed!

Not at all. Their strong social safety nets reduce the number of homicides that occur there.

Again, I generally agree! (Of course there is also the general lower number of guns in circulation which reduces the probability of guns being stolen and used for crimes, etc.)

True. But a bomb still would have worked had he not had access to guns.

But that's the key. In America guns are EXCEPTIONALLY easy to get ahold of. That's because we average more than 1 gun per every man, woman and child in the US. That's part of the problem. Too many guns means a higher probability that guns can be obtained (often through illegal means)

 

[daveman]

So you're saying don't punish the offender if they are black?

It's racist to punish black people for their crimes, because they simply can't help breaking the rules.

Right, white leftists?

 

[daveman]

Not even close. But if oversimplifying topics is your thing then thing away.

Can you explain how you're going to get criminals to obey gun laws? Or is THEY JUST WILL NO REALLY PINKIE SWEAR all you've got?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Can you explain how you're going to get criminals to obey gun laws?

Yawn. Sorry, what?

Or is THEY JUST WILL NO REALLY PINKIE SWEAR all you've got?

More facile arguments. Sorry, not interested. Looking for something more substantive like an actual assessment of the various issues around this topic.

Thanks, though.

 

[daveman]

Oh gosh! Such a NOVEL argument! Wow. That's amazing.


the point about suicides is a bit more subtle. I'll outline it again since reading doesn't appear to be your forte:

Many suicides start off trying or "attempting" suicide unsuccessfully. If they are lucky they get the help they need and subsequent attempts are not made.

But with a gun the odds of any given attempt being SUCCESSFUL go WAAAAY up. (I'll let you figure out why).

So the presence of guns increases the likelihood that a "rash decision" attempt becomes a permanent situation.



What about the guns in the house that don't belong to the suicidal person?


I'm all for better social safety nets! That's probably the quickest way to eliminate a lot of urban crime by improving opportunities for the desperately poor.



LOL. Not really. I assume you know that it is MUCH easier to kill with a gun than a knife. That's why you don't go deer hunting with a knife. Guns are extremely efficient killing machines.

The shooter at Las Vegas wouldn't have been able to do what he did from his hotel room dozens of floors up and a long way away from the concert if he was armed even with a BUNCH of knives.

I'd like to point out that you don't actually give a shit about people who commit suicide; they're just a handy pulpit from which to preach the disarmament of law-abiding citizens.

 

[daveman]

Yawn. Sorry, what?



More facile arguments. Sorry, not interested. Looking for something more substantive like an actual assessment of the various issues around this topic.

Thanks, though.

No, you're not. You want people to agree with you that guns should be banned, and that's all you'll accept. People have been giving you facts, studies and rational arguments for pages, and you just hand-wave them away and screech NUH UH.

Meanwhile, you want more gun control laws, and you have no idea how to get criminals -- you know, the people who commit crimes with guns -- to obey those laws. But that doesn't matter -- you want law-abiding citizens disarmed.

Anyone who wants you disarmed wants to harm you. At no point in history ever has a government that disarmed its citizens not gone on to commit violence against them.

You display a great deal of arrogance that simply isn't merited.

 

[Open Bolt]

Really?

Yes.

People can't sell their guns and then buy more guns?

Selling your guns is not temporally handing them in until you get better.

Do you support expanding welfare and improving them?

Yes.

If we are to believe that it is inner city ghettos where the shooting happens (as we've been told SO MANY TIMES) then eliminating that level of poverty must surely make a difference.
But no one ever puts their money where their mouth is. Either it's all the mentally ill shooting people or it's the poors. But either way it will COST to offset the problem. And most gun advocates don't see the connection so they won't pay extra for their hobby.

I can see how it would cost more to support a strong social safety net. But I don't see where paying extra for guns comes into the picture.

Gun ownership is not necessarily a hobby. It can be. But some people have guns for protection.

Again, I generally agree! (Of course there is also the general lower number of guns in circulation which reduces the probability of guns being stolen and used for crimes, etc.)
But that's the key. In America guns are EXCEPTIONALLY easy to get ahold of. That's because we average more than 1 gun per every man, woman and child in the US. That's part of the problem. Too many guns means a higher probability that guns can be obtained (often through illegal means)

I don't think it matters whether guns are involved in crime.

Being murdered with a gun is just as bad as being murdered with a knife.

Being raped at gunpoint is just as bad as being raped at knifepoint.

Being robbed at gunpoint is just as bad as being robbed at knifepoint.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Hello rambo. Did he upset you? Ooooooh go and tell mum he's a naughty boy.

I'm a mass shooter so you shut the fuck up

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I note you didn't actually address the numbers posted and the links.

Good for you!

False narratives are a LOT easier to push when you don't even bother to support your claims.

Your numbers are skewed. You leftists treat suicide the same as you would treat an murder. You should be more honest but you know that when you start to be honest you will lose the argument.

 

[Colin norris]

I'm a mass shooter so you shut the fuck up

Oooooooh nasty temper there rambo. Nuts like you shouldn't own a gun.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Oooooooh nasty temper there rambo. Nuts like you shouldn't own a gun.

Well if we are taking away rights then you should lose your 1st amendment rights .

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Oooooooh nasty temper there rambo. Nuts like you shouldn't own a gun.

Shrugs bug

 

[M14 Shooter]

But with a gun the odds of any given attempt being SUCCESSFUL go WAAAAY up. (I'll let you figure out why).

This just demonstrates that people who decide to kill themselves with a gun have committed themselves to dying.
If not a gun, then a truck or train or a tall building - and they're still dead.

So the presence of guns increases the likelihood that a "rash decision" attempt becomes a permanent situation.

As does the presence of a truck, train, or tall building.

LOL. Not really. I assume you know that it is MUCH easier to kill with a gun than a knife. That's why you don't go deer hunting with a knife. Guns are extremely efficient killing machines.

This is exactly why our right to own and use them in protected by the constitution from unnecessary and/or ineffective restrictions.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Oooooooh nasty temper there rambo. Nuts like you shouldn't own a gun.

Thank you for further demonstrating your ignorance, bigotry and irrational fear.

 

[Canon Shooter]

It doesn't. There is currently no system for people to temporarily and voluntarily hand in their guns for safekeeping if they are suicidal.

I promise you, if you walk into the St. Johns Country Sheriff's Office (where I live), put a handgun on the watch sergeant's desk and say you're suicidal, they'll accept it...

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

This just demonstrates that people who decide to kill themselves with a gun have committed themselves to dying.

I am struggling here to try to communicate to someone with a cartoon view of mental illness. I wish I could make this point more clear for you, but I doubt I will be able to.

Perhaps you have never been suicidal. It's not an easy space to navigate. Sometimes pain can be so intense and come up on you so quickly that you are rendered incapable of rational planning. If a person struggles with suicidal ideation and then one day the pain simply gets too great they might take actions that, without easy access to a truly lethal form, wouldn't become permanent.

Would it be too much to suggest you develop some compassion?

 

[2aguy]

I am struggling here to try to communicate to someone with a cartoon view of mental illness. I wish I could make this point more clear for you, but I doubt I will be able to.

Perhaps you have never been suicidal. It's not an easy space to navigate. Sometimes pain can be so intense and come up on you so quickly that you are rendered incapable of rational planning. If a person struggles with suicidal ideation and then one day the pain simply gets too great they might take actions that, without easy access to a truly lethal form, wouldn't become permanent.

Would it be too much to suggest you develop some compassion?

Hmmmm......then how do you explain the South Koreans, with extreme gun control, and the highest level of suicide....? Or the Japanes, and Chinese...or any of those European countries I listed ?

You really have no argument...