Second Amendment advocates would this change your mind?

[2aguy]

Interesting approach there. I take it you aren't used to people questioning your "erudition".



Go ahead and work out the numbers. If you can.

You've got a population of 300million people, a gun homicide rate of 5.9 gun homices/100,000 people and 42% of American households with at least one gun.

WHile I will readily agree that high crime areas are, just that, high crime, I'm curious why our gun homicide rate is so much higher than any other developed nation (almost all of which have big cities in them).

We can make the argument that these other developed nations are either "a less violent species of humans than Americans" or that they have a society-based reason for it (more controls on guns in circulation, better social safety net, less poverty, etc.)

I know it's easy to oversimplify a system. But at some point you have to work the numbers closely.

Moron....those other nations murdered 15 million people......in 6 years....you fail to point that out.......after they confiscated guns........

That means they murdered more people in that 6 year period than our criminals with guns did in 82 years....you idiot.............

Governments murder more people than criminals do........

Our gun murder rate is higher because our democrat party keeps releasing violent gun criminals over and over again.....these criminals who are released are doing almost all of our shootings........don't worry, Europe is starting to do this too, their society has reached the point of damage by left wingers that our society reached a few decades ago...

 

[2aguy]

LOL. Sorry, that's just stupid. Or it's dogwhistle racism. Pick your fave.

Dipshit....

D.C. study...
A study finds that suspects in violent crime in the District share a lot of characteristics.

The National Institute for Criminal Justice Reform looked at the numbers for homicides and nonfatal shooting in D.C. in 2019 and 2020, and found that “most gun violence is tightly concentrated on a small number of very high-risk young Black male adults that share a common set of risk factors.”

Those factors include involvements in street crews, a previous criminal justice history and connection to a recent shooting. Often, they’ve been the victims of crime themselves. While the motive for the shooting “may not be a traditional gang war,” the report says, “often shootings are precipitated by a petty conflict over a young woman, a simple argument, or the now-ubiquitous social media slight.”
---------
More than 90% of victims and suspects in 2019 and 2020 were male and about 96% were Black.

The study also found that another 86% of victims and suspects have been involved with the criminal justice system and the average age of victims is 31, while the average age of suspects is 27 years old.

They found that, in terms of prior arrests, “victims and suspects were remarkably similar.”

http://[URL='https://wtop.com/dc/20...dc-gun-crimes-involve-small-number-of-people/

[/URL]


Bonus content.......the actual study...

About 96 percent of victims and suspects in both homicides and nonfatal shootings were Black, despite Black residents comprising only 46 percent of the overall population in the District (Table 1).
-----
Approximately 86 percent of homicide victims and suspects were known to the criminal justice system prior to the incident. Among all victims and suspects, about 46 percent had been previously incarcerated (Figure 2).
At least 23.3 percent of all homicide victims and suspects were under active supervision (i.e., CSOSA, PSA, or DYRS)1. At least 64 percent of all victims and suspects had been under any prior or active supervision and at least 76% of homicide suspects had active or prior supervision.
------
Overall, most victims and suspects with prior criminal offenses had been arrested about 11 times for about 13 different offenses by the time of the homicide. This count only refers to adult arrests and juvenile arrests were not included.
-------

In Washington, DC, most gun violence is tightly concentrated on a small number of very high risk young Black male adults that share a common set of risk factors, including: involvement in street crews/groups; significant criminal justice history including prior or active community supervision; often prior victimization; and a connection to a recent shooting (within the past 12 months).
While the majority of people involved in shootings, as victim or suspect, are members or associates of street groups/gangs, the motive for the shooting may not be a traditional gang war. Often shootings are precipitated by a petty conflict over a young woman, a simple argument, or the now ubiquitous social media slight.
-----
This small number of very high risk individuals are identifiable, their violence is predictable, and therefore it is preventable. Based on the assessment of data and the series of interviews conducted, NICJR estimates that within a year, there are at least 500 identifiable people who rise to this level of very high risk, and likely no more than 200 at any one given time. These individuals comprise approximately 60-70% of all gun violence in the District. Nealy 250 specific individuals were identified through the GVPA process but more importantly, the risk factors that make someone at very high risk has been identified in order to develop an on-going process to focus intervention efforts on those at very high risk.

https://cjcc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/cjcc/release_content/attachments/DC Gun Violence Problem Analysis Summary Report.pdf
========

 

[2aguy]

LOL. Sorry, that's just stupid. Or it's dogwhistle racism. Pick your fave.

Moron.....more.....

Most murder victims in big cities have criminal record

A review of murder statistics across America shows that in many large cities, up to 90 percent of the victims have criminal records.
-------
The report concludes that “of the 2011 homicide victims, 77 percent (66) had a least one prior arrest and of the known 2011 homicide suspects 90 percent (74) had at least one prior arrest.”
----------
In early 2012, after pressure put on the police by murder victims’ families in New Orleans, the police department stopped revealing whether or not the murder victim had a prior record.
---------------
Though data is no longer published in Baltimore, USA Today reported in 2007 that 91 percent of the then-205 murder victims in the city between Jan. 1 and Aug. 31, 2007, had criminal records.
---------
A WND review of the Philadelphia Police Department Murder and Shooting Analysis for 2011 shows a similar pattern to that of other large cities in America – a majority of the murder victims have prior records.

--------
In Philadelphia in 2011, of 324 murders, 81 percent (263) of the victims had at least one prior arrest; 62 percent (164) had been arrested for a violent crime prior to their murder.
----------
In Newark, N.J., long considered one of America’s most dangerous cities, 85 percent of the 165 murder victims between 2009 and 2010 had serious arrest histories.
Anthony Braga, a professor with the Rutgers-Newark School of Criminal Justice, told the Newark Star-Ledger that 85 percent of 165 murder victims in Newark between 2009 and 2010 had been arrested at least once before they were killed.
Those victims, he said, had, on average, 10 prior arrests on their criminal records.
A WND review of the Chicago Police Department Murder Analysis reports from 2003 to 2011 provides a statistical breakdown of the demographics of both the victims and offenders in the 4,265 murders in Chicago over that time period.


***************


Baltimore...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...7-homicide-data-breakdown-20180103-story.html



About 86 percent of the victims and 85 percent of the 118 suspects identified by police had prior criminal records. And about 46 percent of victims and 44 percent of suspects had previously been arrested for gun crimes, the data show.

----

The average homicide victim in Baltimore in 2017 had 11 previous arrests on his record. About 73 percent had drug arrests, and nearly 50 percent had been arrested for a violent crime. About 30 percent were on parole or probation at the time they were killed, and more than 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime.

Twenty percent of the victims were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.

The average homicide suspect, meanwhile, had 9 previous arrests on his record. About 70 percent had drug arrests, and nearly half had been arrested for a violent crime. Nearly 36 percent were on parole or probation, and 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime, the data show.

Eighteen percent of the suspects were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.

Police did not know the motive behind nearly half of the killings, but at least 20 were related to retaliation, according to the data.

=============

Chicago..


Actual report on shootings in chicago...http://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attac...cagoCrimeLab+Gun+Violence+in+Chicago+2016.pdf


1/19/17 Shooters in Chicago criminal record research from U of C






Nearly 40 percent of victims had more than 10 prior arrests, while the share with more than 20 prior arrests rose from 14 to 18 percent in 2016.

The share of victims with a current or prior gang affiliation as recorded by CPD was about the same in both years (53 and 54 percent).

And now the shooters . . .

Individuals arrested for a homicide or shooting in Chicago in 2016 and 2015 had similar prior criminal records: around 90 percent had at least one prior arrest, approximately 50 percent had a prior arrest for a violent crime specifically, and almost 40 percent had a prior gun arrest.



The average person arrested for a homicide or shooting in both years had nearly 12 prior arrests, with almost 45 percent having had more than 10 prior arrests, and almost 20 percent having had more than 20 prior arrests.

Why is anyone in Chicago (or elsewhere) talking about gun control? Clearly, Chicago’s revolving door justice system is a failure that allows dangerous killers to roam the city streets.
============================


12/27/16 Gang shootings in Chicago over christmas..90% gang affiliated


Gang Killers In Chicago Used Christmas Gatherings To Target Their Victims

Gang killers, knowing their targets would be home for Christmas, launched a bloody weekend of shootings in Chicago that left 11 dead and another 37 wounded.

"We now know that the majority of these shootings and homicides were targeted attacks by gangs against potential rivals who were at holiday gatherings. This was followed by several acts of retaliatory gun violence," police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi said in a statement Monday.

--------------

The violence primarily occurred in areas with historical gang conflicts on the South and West Side of Chicago."


And this is what we keep telling you anti gunners and you refuse to believe it....

"Ninety percent of those fatally wounded had gang affiliations, criminal histories and were pre-identified by the department's strategic subject algorithm as being a potential suspect or victim of gun violence," Guglielmi said.
=================

12/3/16


DC Won’t Allow Concealed Carry, But Takes It Easy On Armed, Violent Criminals

The problems stem from the city’s Youth Rehabilitation Act, legislation implemented in the 1980s to provide leniency to criminal offenders under the age of 22, even violent ones, with murder convictions being the only exception. It allows judges to disregard mandatory minimums meant to dissuade criminals, often to disastrous effects. The homicide rate spiked by 54 percent in the District in 2015, and 22 of the murderers were previously sentenced for crimes under the Youth Rehabilitation Act, according to an investigation by The Washington Post.

A man released on probation in 2015 under the law was involved in the July shooting death of Deeniquia Dodds, a transgender man. Just over 120 people previously sentenced under the Youth Rehabilitation Act have subsequently been convicted of murder since 2010.

“I knew they were going to let me off easy,” Tavon Pinkney, an 18-year old convicted of homicide in 2015, told The Washington Post regarding his previous sentencing under the youth law. “Nothing changed … They just gave me the Youth Act and let me go right back out there. They ain’t really care.”



R


9/30/16


This Week In Gun News: Rifle Homicides Drop, Man Arrested 39 Times Commits More Gun Crimes

Just How Many Gun Laws Does a Killer Break?

The Chicago Sun-Times recently released an editorial calling for more gun control. Not surprising there. But their first case calls for a closer look.

Paul Pagan is 32, and the definition of a career criminal. He’s been convicted of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, possession of a stolen car, marijuana possession, two counts of pointing a firearm at someone, and reckless conduct. At the time Pagan allegedly committed a murder, there was a warrant for his arrest.

The Chicago Sun-Times notes Pagan “had been arrested 39 times.”

Mr. Pagan is barred from possessing firearms under federal law for being a fugitive, for his felony convictions, and as a drug user.

By picking up a gun, Pagan hits an 18 USC 922(g) trifecta (the first three items), and can get up to 30 years in the Federal slammer. But wait, there is more. The two counts of pointing a firearm at someone fall under a mandatory sentence enhancement under 18 USC 924(c)(1)(A). The “brandishing” enhancement is a mandatory seven years in the slammer. And now, Pagan also hits the “armed career criminal” and under 18 USC 924(e)(1) and gets a minimum 15-year sentence with no chance of parole or probation.

Is it any wonder why crime is up?

There are tools that could put thugs like Pagan away for a long time, yet they don’t get used.

Then the same folks who refuse to put away the bad guys then blame the NRA and law-abiding gun owners for bad things happening. I suppose that gun-grabbers figure we fit into some “basket of deplorables.”

5/10/16 Chicago gun murder victims...criminals...


Chicago police boss calls weekend gun violence 'completely unacceptable'

At an unrelated news conference Monday on the city's Southwest Side, Johnson brought up the Mother's Day weekend violence himself in his prepared remarks. He focused his remarks on how much of the bloodshed is being driven by about 1,300 individuals on the Police Department's "strategic subject list" — those believed to be most prone to violence as a victim or offender.

About 78 percent of the homicide victims and about 84 percent of the nonfatal shooting victims this weekend were on the list, he said.

"That means essentially we know who they are," he told reporters at 50th Street and South Karlov Avenue, where a Chicago police officer fatally shot a bank robbery suspect on Monday. "Oftentimes, they have gang affiliations, and many have had previous arrests and convictions."
----------
He then ticked off nearly 10 examples of how many arrests these victims had on their records, ranging from 20 each all the way up to 41.
5/7/16 Australian murder report p.20 criminals commit murder...

http://aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/mr/mr01/mr01.pdf

Criminal history Figure 18 shows that in 2006–07, a significant proportion both of homicide offenders and of homicide victims had a criminal history. Nearly two-thirds of male offenders and half of female offenders had a prior criminal history. Half of male victims too had a criminal history, as did a quarter of female victims. These ratios have changed little throughout the years of monitoring. In 2006–07, the most common prior criminal history of offenders constituted ‘other assault’, property, and ‘other’ offences. ‘Other’ encompasses crimes such as fraud and traffic violations. Recidivist homicide offending was very low in 2006–07, with only two percent of offenders having a prior conviction of homicide. The high incidence of a prior criminal history of ‘other assault’ suggests that homicide is often not an isolated incident of violence but part of a longer-term pattern of violent behaviour. Of interest, little difference exists between the sexes of homicide offenders in this respect.

---------

5/1/16

----------------

4/28/16

breakdown of the 90% of murderers have records..really good...


3/23/16

David Kennedy...

Roy Exum: How We Stop The Bullets

David Kennedy, a renowned criminal justice professor and co-chair of the National Network for Safe Communities, believes that places like the 1500 block of East 50th Street where Deontrey was killed, or Central Avenue where two other Chattanoogans were shot around the same time, aren’t necessarily bad areas. Good people live in those areas, just as the overwhelming numbers of those who live in our inner city are decent and law-abiding citizens.

No, our new focus isn’t on neighborhoods like Alton Park or East Chattanooga but instead on “hot” places” and “hot” people. In an article entitled, “The Story Behind the Nation’s Falling Body Count,” Kennedy writes, “Research on hot spots shows violence to be concentrated in ‘micro’ places, rather than ‘dangerous neighborhoods,’ as the popular idea goes. Blocks, corners, and buildings representing just five or six percent of an entire city will drive half of its serious crime.”

The same is true about people. “We now know that homicide and gun violence are overwhelmingly concentrated among serious offenders operating in groups: gangs, drug crews, and the like representing under half of one percent of a city's population who commit half to three-quarters of all murders.”

Read it once more: “ … under half of one percent … commit half to three-quarters of all murders.”

It is vitally important for us to realize the recent “worst of the worst” roundup had very little to do with race, yet to the uninformed it clearly appeared that only blacks were targeted.

Try to forget that all were black and focus instead on the far greater fact – there is ample evidence that each is alleged to be a serious criminal.

Kennedy writes, “We also know some reliable predictors of risk: individuals who have a history of violence or a close connection with prior victims are far more likely to be involved in violence themselves.


Hot groups and people are so hot that when their offending is statistically abstracted, their neighborhoods cease to be dangerous. Their communities aren't dangerous; (these criminals) are.”

------------------------------------
part 2 of a review of gun control issues.....includes who actually commits murder...great info.....



Brockton man arrested a third time in 15 months on gun charges

For the third time in 15 months, a Brockton man with gang ties is facing gun charges after being arrested for leading officers on a car chase in the city Friday afternoon, police said.

------------------------
For Patrick Brandao, Friday’s arrest was one of three times he has been charged with gun crimes since October 2014.

On April 15 last year, 18 Brockton police officers responded to a car chase that led to the arrest of Brandao and another man.

Police observed a vehicle, with Brandao inside, on Winthrop Street that appeared to be circling around the neighborhood.

After a motor vehicle infraction, officers attempted pull the vehicle over and they took off.

About a mile away on Linnea Avenue, Brandao and the other man jumped out of the car and fled on foot. The car continued down the road for another 100 feet and struck a fire hydrant, police said.

The two were arrested and a .40 caliber Smith & Wesson handgun was seized.

In Stoughton on Oct. 17, 2014, Brandao was arrested during a raid by the State Police Gang Unit.

Officers executed a search warrant at 97 Pratts Court and found a .40 caliber Glock and 9mm Ruger. Both guns were loaded and equipped with high-capacity magazines. Also seized was 10 grams of heroin and $4,500 cash.

In addition, at age 18, in 2011, Brandao was arrested by the Brockton Police Gang Unit after a traffic stop for speeding that led to detectives finding a .22 caliber handgun under a seat in the vehicle, police said.
888888888888888888

PolitiFact - 85 percent of shooting suspects and victims in Milwaukee have "extensive criminal record," police chief says

Non-fatal shootings:

In non-fatal shootings in 2011, 97 percent of the 177 suspects and 86 percent of the 473 victims had at least one prior arrest. The report doesn’t say how many.

However, O’Brien said a closer analysis of non-fatal shootings during a six-week period in July and August 2011, when non-fatal shootings increased, found that suspects had an average of 7.5 prior arrests and victims had an average of about six. O’Brien said that based on her past studies, she would expect that the rest of the suspects and victims in the non-fatal shootings in 2011 had a similar number of prior arrests.

So, more than 85 percent of the people involved in non-fatal shootings had at least one prior arrest. And there’s a strong indication, though not complete numbers, that most people involved in the non-fatal shootings had at least several prior arrests.

Homicides:

For all homicides in 2011 -- those involving guns and those that didn’t -- 57 percent of the 72 suspects and 62 percent of the 66 homicide victims had at least six prior arrests.

O’Brien said that based on past studies she has done, most homicides involve guns and it’s unlikely that arrest records would vary greatly between the people involved in shooting homicides versus non-shooting homicides.

So, a clear majority, but less than 85 percent, of the people involved in fatal shootings likely had at least six prior arrests; although, again, the study doesn’t provide hard numbers on that point.

We asked James Alan Fox, a criminology, law and public policy professor at Northeastern University in Boston, about Flynn’s claim. He said from a national perspective, most shootings involve people with an arrest history, although he couldn’t say how extensive that history is for the typical shooting suspect or victim.

Our rating

Flynn said 85 percent of Milwaukee shootings "are people with extensive criminal records shooting other people with extensive criminal records."

The thrust of his statement -- that the vast majority of shooting suspects and victims have a criminal history, is accurate. But he made a specific statistical claim that isn’t fully supported by the study he cites. And as compared with charges or convictions, prior arrests as a measure of a person’s criminal record is on the lower end of the scale.

Houston.....most shooters criminals

Houston murder rate skyrockets in early 2015

McClelland said the majority of murders in the city are committed by people with criminal records against people with criminal records.

-----
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/25/us/cdc-gun-violence-wilmington.html?_r=0



When epidemiologists from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention came to this city, they were not here to track an outbreak of meningitis or study the effectiveness of a particular vaccine.

They were here to examine gun violence.

This city of about 70,000 had a 45 percent jump in shootings from 2011 to 2013, and the violence has remained stubbornly high; 25 shooting deaths have been reported this year, slightly more than last year, according to the mayor’s office
.-------



The final report, which has been submitted to the state, reached a conclusion that many here said they already knew: that there are certain patterns in the lives of many who commit gun violence.

“The majority of individuals involved in urban firearm violence are young men with substantial violence involvement preceding the more serious offense of a firearm crime,”


the report said. “Our findings suggest that integrating data systems could help these individuals better receive the early, comprehensive help that they need to prevent violence involvement.”

Researchers analyzed data on 569 people charged with firearm crimes from 2009 to May 21, 2014, and looked for certain risk factors in their lives, such as whether they had been unemployed, had received help from assistance programs, had been possible victims of child abuse, or had been shot or stabbed. The idea was to show that linking such data could create a better understanding of who might need help before becoming involved in violence.

http://www.guns.com/2015/12/16/nearly-half-of-nycs-shootings-gang-related/

Of the more than 300 homicides so far this year in New York City, almost half of those – 40 percent – were determined to be gang-related, with 49 percent of the city’s nearly 1,100 shootings tied to gangs as well.
-----
Data obtained by the Daily News from the NYPD’s Gang and Juvenile Justice divisions indicate that gang members may be as young as 10 years old, with most members in their teens and early twenties. Those who survive the lifestyle long enough often have extensive criminal records by their 30s.


----
---From an article on Operation Ceasefire...it cites the number of criminals in Oakland California who actually shoot people and who get shot, and there criminal backgrounds...

https://newrepublic.com/article/124445/beyond-gun-control

Lost in the debate is that even in high-crime cities, the risk of gun violence is mostly concentrated among a small number of men. In Oakland, for instance, crime experts working with the police department a few years ago found that about 1,000 active members of a few dozen street groups drove most homicides. That’s .3 percent of Oakland’s population. And even within this subgroup, risk fluctuated according to feuds and other beefs. In practical terms, the experts found that over a given stretch of several months only about 50 to 100 men are at the highest risk of shooting someone or getting shot.

Most of these men have criminal records. But it’s not drug deals or turf wars that drives most of the shootings.

Instead, the violence often starts with what seems to outsiders like trivial stuff—“a fight over a girlfriend, a couple of words, a dispute over a dice game,” said Vaughn Crandall, a senior strategist at the California Partnership for Safe Communities, which did the homicide analysis for Oakland.

Most murder victims in big cities have criminal record

A review of murder statistics across America shows that in many large cities, up to 90 percent of the victims have criminal records.
-------
The report concludes that “of the 2011 homicide victims, 77 percent (66) had a least one prior arrest and of the known 2011 homicide suspects 90 percent (74) had at least one prior arrest.”
----------
In early 2012, after pressure put on the police by murder victims’ families in New Orleans, the police department stopped revealing whether or not the murder victim had a prior record.
---------------
Though data is no longer published in Baltimore, USA Today reported in 2007 that 91 percent of the then-205 murder victims in the city between Jan. 1 and Aug. 31, 2007, had criminal records.
---------
A WND review of the Philadelphia Police Department Murder and Shooting Analysis for 2011 shows a similar pattern to that of other large cities in America – a majority of the murder victims have prior records.

--------
In Philadelphia in 2011, of 324 murders, 81 percent (263) of the victims had at least one prior arrest; 62 percent (164) had been arrested for a violent crime prior to their murder.
----------
In Newark, N.J., long considered one of America’s most dangerous cities, 85 percent of the 165 murder victims between 2009 and 2010 had serious arrest histories.
Anthony Braga, a professor with the Rutgers-Newark School of Criminal Justice, told the Newark Star-Ledger that 85 percent of 165 murder victims in Newark between 2009 and 2010 had been arrested at least once before they were killed.
Those victims, he said, had, on average, 10 prior arrests on their criminal records.
A WND review of the Chicago Police Department Murder Analysis reports from 2003 to 2011 provides a statistical breakdown of the demographics of both the victims and offenders in the 4,265 murders in Chicago over that time period.


***************
*****************

 

[2aguy]

LOL. Sorry, that's just stupid. Or it's dogwhistle racism. Pick your fave.

The race card? You really are lazy moron..........

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

I. VIOLENCE: THE DECISIVENESS OF SOCIAL FACTORS

One reason the extent of gun ownership in a society does not spur the murder rate is that murderers are not spread evenly throughout the population. Analysis of perpetrator studies shows that violent criminals—especially murderers—“almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behav‐ ior.”37 So it would not appreciably raise violence if all law‐ abiding, responsible people had firearms because they are not the ones who rape, rob, or murder.38 By the same token, violent crime would not fall if guns were totally banned to civilians. As the respective examples of Luxembourg and Russia suggest,39 individuals who commit violent crimes will either find guns despite severe controls or will find other weapons to use. 40

--------------------------




III. DO ORDINARY PEOPLE MURDER?

The “more guns equal more death” mantra seems plausible only when viewed through the rubric that murders mostly in‐ volve ordinary people who kill because they have access to a firearm when they get angry. If this were true, murder might well increase where people have ready access to firearms, but the available data provides no such correlation. Nations and


areas with more guns per capita do not have higher murder rates than those with fewer guns per capita.53

Nevertheless, critics of gun ownership often argue that a “gun in the closet to protect against burglars will most likely be used to shoot a spouse in a moment of rage . . . . The problem is you and me—law‐abiding folks;”54 that banning handgun posses‐ sion only for those with criminal records will “fail to protect us from the most likely source of handgun murder: ordinary citi‐ zens;”55 that “most gun‐related homicides . . . are the result of impulsive actions taken by individuals who have little or no criminal background or who are known to the victims;”56 that “the majority of firearm homicide[s occur] . . . not as the result of criminal activity, but because of arguments between people who know each other;”57 that each year there are thousands of gun murders “by law‐abiding citizens who might have stayed law‐abiding if they had not possessed firearms.”58

These comments appear to rest on no evidence and actually con‐ tradict facts that have so uniformly been established by homicide studies dating back to the 1890s that they have become “crimino‐ logical axioms.”59 Insofar as studies focus on perpetrators, they show that neither a majority, nor many, nor virtually any murder‐ ers are ordinary “law‐abiding citizens.”60

Rather, almost all mur‐ derers are extremely aberrant individuals with life histories of violence, psychopathology, substance abuse, and other dangerous behaviors. “The vast majority of persons involved in life‐ threatening violence have a long criminal record with many prior contacts with the justice system.”61 “Thus homicide—[whether] of a

stranger or [of] someone known to the offender—‘is usually part of a pattern of violence, engaged in by people who are known . . . as violence prone.’”62

Though only 15% of Americans over the age of 15 have arrest records,63 approximately 90 percent of “adult mur‐ derers have adult records, with an average adult criminal career [involving crimes committed as an adult rather than a child] of six or more years, including four major adult felony arrests.”64

These national statistics dovetail with data from local nineteenth and twentieth century studies. For example: victims as well as offenders [in 1950s and 1960s Philadelphia murders] . . . tended to be people with prior police records, usually for violent crimes such as as‐ sault.”65


“The great majority of both perpetrators and victims of [1970s Harlem] assaults and murders had previous [adult] arrests, probably over 80% or more.”66 Boston police and probation officers in the 1990s agreed that of those juvenile‐perpetrated murders where all the facts were known, virtually all were committed by gang members, though the killing was not necessarily gang‐ directed. 67 One example would be a gang member who stabs his girlfriend to death in a fit of anger.68 Regardless of their arrests for other crimes, 80% of 1997 Atlanta murder arrestees had at least one earlier drug offense with 70% having 3 or more prior drug of‐ fenses.69

A New York Times study of the 1,662 murders committed in that city in the years 2003–2005 found that “[m]ore than 90 percent of the killers had criminal records.”70 Baltimore police figures show that “92 percent of murder suspects had [prior] criminal records in 2006.”71 Several of the more recent homicide studies just reviewed

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

The race card? You really are lazy moron..........

LOL. You seem to need a bit more of the happy pills, dude. You are a bit off the rails. Meds can help (but I'm sure you've been told that from time to time.)

 

[RetiredGySgt]

LOL. You seem to need a bit more of the happy pills, dude. You are a bit off the rails. Meds can help (but I'm sure you've been told that from time to time.)

You are the sick one claiming suicides should count as murders and ignoring the fact that 90 percent of all murders are committed by career criminals.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

You are the sick one claiming suicides should count as murders

Except I never said suicides were murders. They are just another form of gun-related death, many of which COULD have been avoided if guns were not available.

The thing I dislike about the gun enthusiast culture is that they so quickly jump on mental health issues as a way to divert the discussion from guns, but when actual mental health outcomes don't fit their narrative they suddenly couldn't care less.

It's almost as if the mentally ill are a handy scapegoat but nothing more.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Except I never said suicides were murders. They are just another form of gun-related death, many of which COULD have been avoided if guns were not available.

The thing I dislike about the gun enthusiast culture is that they so quickly jump on mental health issues as a way to divert the discussion from guns, but when actual mental health outcomes don't fit their narrative they suddenly couldn't care less.

It's almost as if the mentally ill are a handy scapegoat but nothing more.

You dont have a point. The fact is countries with strict firearms laws have HIGHER suicide rates. Proving firearms are not to blame.

 

[hadit]

"There is no legitimate sporting or self-defense need for someone with proper marksmanship training to possess a 10-plus round magazine."

Unless, of course, the person or persons whom you're defending against have 30-round magazines.

Or there's more than 1 person attacking you. When the best trained policemen miss their targets more than they hit them in poor lighting and high adrenaline conditions, you cannot expect a civilian in similar situations to neatly use one or two bullets each to stop multiple attackers.

 

[hadit]

The important question is, would denying those who want a black assault weapon to kill people, lower the rate of murder with gun in America?

I think it would because there would be less gratification for the killer if he was limited to using a gun that didn't look the part for a murder, and obviously be less efficient in killing large numbers of people.

The professed good guy who wants to kill animals, kill songbirds, or shoot at targets wouldn't be unduly affected by his ability to own an assault weapon. Even though the change would be demoralizing for those who shoot at human silouette targets and dream of an opportunity to shoot at the real thing.

How do I know? I've been there and found immature pleasure in the shooting sports. I know what motivates all sorts of people who crave guns.
Ask a Canadian expert.

No compromise will ever be possible. An approach of taking away the incentive to own black assault weapons is the key. That will almost certainly have to start with demilitarizing America, and reducing the number of wars. In fact, that is in process now, due to the ineffectiveness of personal firearms in a war, as compared to bombs from a distance.

Comments?

Gun grabbers often talk about "assault" weapons without being able to define what they are other than "big, black and scary looking". Would it soothe their fears if the exact same capabilities were packed into guns that were a soft, soothing color? Because I'm pretty sure someone forced to use one to defend himself and his family wouldn't care what color the weapon was as long as it functioned correctly.

 

[Open Bolt]

Studies show that simply keeping a gun in the house increases the likelihood of the death of someone in that house (family) from the gun. Is that also limited to only "bad people neighborhoods"?

Having a car increases the likelihood of being killed in a car accident with that car.

Having a bath tub increases the likelihood of drowning in that bath tub.

Having a stairway increases the likelihood of having a fatal fall down that stairway.

Interesting. So people who commit suicides don't count as people?

Suicides are voluntary. That makes them a bit different from homicides.

However, many gun owners would be OK with having a system where suicidal people could voluntarily and temporarily hand over their guns until they are better.

People would probably be wary that the system could be abused to violate our rights. But they'd go for it if they were assured that there were sufficient safeguards against such abuses.

WHile I will readily agree that high crime areas are, just that, high crime, I'm curious why our gun homicide rate is so much higher than any other developed nation (almost all of which have big cities in them).

Their better social safety nets make for less poverty and less crime, including fewer homicides.

Of course if there are fewer guns in a society, more of their homicides (whatever level the overall homicide numbers are) will be committed with other kinds of weapons.

The victims are still just as dead though no matter what kind of weapon is used to kill them.

LOL. Sorry, that's just stupid. Or it's dogwhistle racism. Pick your fave.

It looks like basic truth to me.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Having a car increases the likelihood of being killed in a car accident with that car.

Oh gosh! Such a NOVEL argument! Wow. That's amazing.

Suicides are voluntary. That makes them a bit different from homicides.

the point about suicides is a bit more subtle. I'll outline it again since reading doesn't appear to be your forte:

Many suicides start off trying or "attempting" suicide unsuccessfully. If they are lucky they get the help they need and subsequent attempts are not made.

But with a gun the odds of any given attempt being SUCCESSFUL go WAAAAY up. (I'll let you figure out why).

So the presence of guns increases the likelihood that a "rash decision" attempt becomes a permanent situation.

However, many gun owners would be OK with having a system where suicidal people could voluntarily and temporarily hand over their guns until they are better.

What about the guns in the house that don't belong to the suicidal person?

Their better social safety nets make for less poverty and less crime, including fewer homicides.

I'm all for better social safety nets! That's probably the quickest way to eliminate a lot of urban crime by improving opportunities for the desperately poor.

Of course if there are fewer guns in a society, more of their homicides (whatever level the overall homicide numbers are) will be committed with other kinds of weapons.

LOL. Not really. I assume you know that it is MUCH easier to kill with a gun than a knife. That's why you don't go deer hunting with a knife. Guns are extremely efficient killing machines.

The shooter at Las Vegas wouldn't have been able to do what he did from his hotel room dozens of floors up and a long way away from the concert if he was armed even with a BUNCH of knives.

 

[Open Bolt]

Oh gosh! Such a NOVEL argument! Wow. That's amazing.

Your point about guns causing gun accidents is just as ancient as my rebuttal.

The truth may not be new, but it has the advantage of being accurate.

I'll outline it again since reading doesn't appear to be your forte:

Childish insults are no substitute for facts and logic.

Many suicides start off trying or "attempting" suicide unsuccessfully. If they are lucky they get the help they need and subsequent attempts are not made.
But with a gun the odds of any given attempt being SUCCESSFUL go WAAAAY up. (I'll let you figure out why).
So the presence of guns increases the likelihood that a "rash decision" attempt becomes a permanent situation.

Thus my proposal for a system where suicidal people can voluntarily and temporarily hand in their guns for safekeeping until they get better.

What about the guns in the house that don't belong to the suicidal person?

If the system that I outlined was set up, the person who did own them could voluntarily and temporarily hand them in.

Or they could store them somewhere else. Or keep them under lock and key so the suicidal person could not get to them.

I think in most cases it will be the suicidal person who owns the guns however.

LOL. Not really.

Yes really. If a society has fewer guns, fewer of their murders are committed using guns.

I assume you know that it is MUCH easier to kill with a gun than a knife. That's why you don't go deer hunting with a knife. Guns are extremely efficient killing machines.

The added efficiency is superfluous. Most murders are close-range one-on-one affairs. Knives are more than sufficient.

The shooter at Las Vegas wouldn't have been able to do what he did from his hotel room dozens of floors up and a long way away from the concert if he was armed even with a BUNCH of knives.

But he could have done it with a bomb. Or he could have found a way to drive a large truck into the crowd at high speed.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Thus my proposal for a system where suicidal people can voluntarily and temporarily hand in their guns for safekeeping until they get better.

That already exists. No one is REQUIRED to keep a gun (outside of maybe Kennesaw, GA).

Yes really. If a society has fewer guns, fewer of their murders are committed using guns.

That's facile and not really the point.

I'm fascinated that we have such a STRONG signal: America has the highest per capita gun ownership rates of any of the developed first world nations BY A LARGE MARGIN, and we also have the HIGHEST PER CAPITA GUN HOMICIDE RATE of any of those nations.

This isn't just a mild signal, it's HUGE. It's almost impossible to ignore. Which is why gun advocates try to hide behind some magical "sociological" difference (as if Norwegians are a different species or something).

And England and Norway and Sweden and Belgium and...all have knives and forks and hammers and clubs freely available. Yet somehow they manage to NOT kill each other at record levels.

Most murders are close-range one-on-one affairs. Knives are more than sufficient.

If that were true then we'd see similar rates of homicide in other developed first world countries, but we don't see that. Instead America has about 2-4 times the homicide rate (general homicide, not just gun homicide) of most European countries. (SOURCE)

Do you think they limit the number of steak knives the French can have?

But he could have done it with a bomb.

A gun is a lot easier to get ahold of. Which is why it was used. And used quite effectively.

Or he could have found a way to drive a large truck into the crowd at high speed.

Not as efficiently as sitting safe in a hotel room several blocks away with a full view of the field of fire. A truck could swerve around, but not even close to as easily as it would be to simply move the gun a mm to one side.

Also: last I checked trucks were easily available in most first world countries with MUCH lower homicide rates than the US.

 

[2aguy]

That already exists. No one is REQUIRED to keep a gun (outside of maybe Kennesaw, GA).


That's facile and not really the point.

I'm fascinated that we have such a STRONG signal: America has the highest per capita gun ownership rates of any of the developed first world nations BY A LARGE MARGIN, and we also have the HIGHEST PER CAPITA GUN HOMICIDE RATE of any of those nations.

This isn't just a mild signal, it's HUGE. It's almost impossible to ignore. Which is why gun advocates try to hide behind some magical "sociological" difference (as if Norwegians are a different species or something).

And England and Norway and Sweden and Belgium and...all have knives and forks and hammers and clubs freely available. Yet somehow they manage to NOT kill each other at record levels.




If that were true then we'd see similar rates of homicide in other developed first world countries, but we don't see that. Instead America has about 2-4 times the homicide rate (general homicide, not just gun homicide) of most European countries. (SOURCE)

Do you think they limit the number of steak knives the French can have?



A gun is a lot easier to get ahold of. Which is why it was used. And used quite effectively.



Not as efficiently as sitting safe in a hotel room several blocks away with a full view of the field of fire. A truck could swerve around, but not even close to as easily as it would be to simply move the gun a mm to one side.

Also: last I checked trucks were easily available in most first world countries with MUCH lower homicide rates than the US.

The worst mass public shooting in the U.S……

61 killed

Muslim terrorist in France with a rental truck?

86 killed

More killed in 5 minutes of driving than any mass public shooting in the U.S.

Also….

You need to explain the fact that for 27 years….between 1993 and 2015….gun ownership increased to 600 million guns and over 19.5 million people carrying guns in public for self defense….

Gun murder went down 49%

gun crime went down 75%

violent crime went down 72%

Guns don’t cause crime……democrats releasing violent criminals over and over again causes gun crime.

 

[2aguy]

That already exists. No one is REQUIRED to keep a gun (outside of maybe Kennesaw, GA).


That's facile and not really the point.

I'm fascinated that we have such a STRONG signal: America has the highest per capita gun ownership rates of any of the developed first world nations BY A LARGE MARGIN, and we also have the HIGHEST PER CAPITA GUN HOMICIDE RATE of any of those nations.

This isn't just a mild signal, it's HUGE. It's almost impossible to ignore. Which is why gun advocates try to hide behind some magical "sociological" difference (as if Norwegians are a different species or something).

And England and Norway and Sweden and Belgium and...all have knives and forks and hammers and clubs freely available. Yet somehow they manage to NOT kill each other at record levels.




If that were true then we'd see similar rates of homicide in other developed first world countries, but we don't see that. Instead America has about 2-4 times the homicide rate (general homicide, not just gun homicide) of most European countries. (SOURCE)

Do you think they limit the number of steak knives the French can have?



A gun is a lot easier to get ahold of. Which is why it was used. And used quite effectively.



Not as efficiently as sitting safe in a hotel room several blocks away with a full view of the field of fire. A truck could swerve around, but not even close to as easily as it would be to simply move the gun a mm to one side.

Also: last I checked trucks were easily available in most first world countries with MUCH lower homicide rates than the US.

You will have to explain why it is that in Britain they had guns and they had a low gun murder rate…then they banned guns and the gun murder rate did not change….they also averaged 1 mass public shooting every 10 years when they had guns…….and 1 mass public shooting every 10 years after they banned guns…

Guns don’t cause gun crime.

 

[Open Bolt]

That already exists.

It doesn't. There is currently no system for people to temporarily and voluntarily hand in their guns for safekeeping if they are suicidal.

That's facile and not really the point.

It is the actual reason why a lower proportion of their homicides are committed with guns.

I'm fascinated that we have such a STRONG signal: America has the highest per capita gun ownership rates of any of the developed first world nations BY A LARGE MARGIN, and we also have the HIGHEST PER CAPITA GUN HOMICIDE RATE of any of those nations.
This isn't just a mild signal, it's HUGE. It's almost impossible to ignore.

It shouldn't be a surprise. Countries with fewer guns have a lower percentage of their homicides committed with guns.

Which is why gun advocates try to hide behind some magical "sociological" difference (as if Norwegians are a different species or something).

Strong social safety nets are not magic.

And England and Norway and Sweden and Belgium and...all have knives and forks and hammers and clubs freely available. Yet somehow they manage to NOT kill each other at record levels.

They have strong social safety nets, which reduce poverty, which reduces crime rates including homicides.

If that were true then we'd see similar rates of homicide in other developed first world countries,

Not at all. Their strong social safety nets reduce the number of homicides that occur there.

but we don't see that.

Because their strong social safety nets reduce poverty, and thus reduce their crime rates.

Instead America has about 2-4 times the homicide rate (general homicide, not just gun homicide) of most European countries. (SOURCE)

We don't have a strong social safety net.

Do you think they limit the number of steak knives the French can have?

No. I think the French have a strong social safety net.

A gun is a lot easier to get ahold of. Which is why it was used. And used quite effectively.

True. But a bomb still would have worked had he not had access to guns.

Note also that he was only able to kill as many as he did because he used bump stocks, which are now illegal (although the Supreme Court has yet to rule on the Constitutionally of that illegality).

Without bump stocks he would not have been able to harm nearly as many as he did.

Not as efficiently as sitting safe in a hotel room several blocks away with a full view of the field of fire. A truck could swerve around, but not even close to as easily as it would be to simply move the gun a mm to one side.

True. But a truck still would have worked had he not had access to guns.

And again, he would not have been able to do it with guns without bump stocks.

Also: last I checked trucks were easily available in most first world countries with MUCH lower homicide rates than the US.

Check again. Such massacres do occur in those countries:

2016 Nice truck attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[2aguy]

That already exists. No one is REQUIRED to keep a gun (outside of maybe Kennesaw, GA).


That's facile and not really the point.

I'm fascinated that we have such a STRONG signal: America has the highest per capita gun ownership rates of any of the developed first world nations BY A LARGE MARGIN, and we also have the HIGHEST PER CAPITA GUN HOMICIDE RATE of any of those nations.

This isn't just a mild signal, it's HUGE. It's almost impossible to ignore. Which is why gun advocates try to hide behind some magical "sociological" difference (as if Norwegians are a different species or something).

And England and Norway and Sweden and Belgium and...all have knives and forks and hammers and clubs freely available. Yet somehow they manage to NOT kill each other at record levels.




If that were true then we'd see similar rates of homicide in other developed first world countries, but we don't see that. Instead America has about 2-4 times the homicide rate (general homicide, not just gun homicide) of most European countries. (SOURCE)

Do you think they limit the number of steak knives the French can have?



A gun is a lot easier to get ahold of. Which is why it was used. And used quite effectively.



Not as efficiently as sitting safe in a hotel room several blocks away with a full view of the field of fire. A truck could swerve around, but not even close to as easily as it would be to simply move the gun a mm to one side.

Also: last I checked trucks were easily available in most first world countries with MUCH lower homicide rates than the US.

Again….those wonderful First World countries murdered 15 million people in 6 years……….after they took their guns away….

They murdered more people in those 6 years than in 82 years of gun murder in the U.S. You idiot……….government…with guns did that…after taking guns away from their victims….

So those First World countries you worship have nothing to teach us…..

 

[2aguy]

It doesn't. There is currently no system for people to temporarily and voluntarily hand in their guns for safekeeping if they are suicidal.



It is the actual reason why a lower proportion of their homicides are committed with guns.



It shouldn't be a surprise. Countries with fewer guns have a lower percentage of their homicides committed with guns.



Strong social safety nets are not magic.



They have strong social safety nets, which reduce poverty, which reduces crime rates including homicides.



Not at all. Their strong social safety nets reduce the number of homicides that occur there.



Because their strong social safety nets reduce poverty, and thus reduce their crime rates.



We don't have a strong social safety net.



No. I think the French have a strong social safety net.



True. But a bomb still would have worked had he not had access to guns.

Note also that he was only able to kill as many as he did because he used bump stocks, which are now illegal (although the Supreme Court has yet to rule on the Constitutionally of that illegality).

Without bump stocks he would not have been able to harm nearly as many as he did.



True. But a truck still would have worked had he not had access to guns.

And again, he would not have been able to do it with guns without bump stocks.



Check again. Such massacres do occur in those countries:

2016 Nice truck attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I hate to disagree with you, but the criminals in Europe have access and use fully automatic military rifles and grenades …they simply don’t choose to commit murder as often as our criminals do……in fact Sweden, of all countries has a growing gun murder rate…and their criminals use grenades like confetti…….

The preferred weapon of European criminals is the fully automatic military weapon……..something American criminals don’t use……..

 

[2aguy]

It doesn't. There is currently no system for people to temporarily and voluntarily hand in their guns for safekeeping if they are suicidal.



It is the actual reason why a lower proportion of their homicides are committed with guns.



It shouldn't be a surprise. Countries with fewer guns have a lower percentage of their homicides committed with guns.



Strong social safety nets are not magic.



They have strong social safety nets, which reduce poverty, which reduces crime rates including homicides.



Not at all. Their strong social safety nets reduce the number of homicides that occur there.



Because their strong social safety nets reduce poverty, and thus reduce their crime rates.



We don't have a strong social safety net.



No. I think the French have a strong social safety net.



True. But a bomb still would have worked had he not had access to guns.

Note also that he was only able to kill as many as he did because he used bump stocks, which are now illegal (although the Supreme Court has yet to rule on the Constitutionally of that illegality).

Without bump stocks he would not have been able to harm nearly as many as he did.



True. But a truck still would have worked had he not had access to guns.

And again, he would not have been able to do it with guns without bump stocks.



Check again. Such massacres do occur in those countries:

2016 Nice truck attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The social safety net? It is failing in Europe…..the rates of fatherless homes has reached the point that their teens are now more violent…..add to that the 3rd immigrants who now control their drug trafficking and they don’t care about western values or laws…and they don’t fear the police….