Zone1 Separation of Church and State?

[ding]

By John's time, Christian anti-Semitism had developed and was raging in the Christian communities that were made up of pagan converts.

What do you think Jesus was claiming in John 8:31-59?

 

[ding]

John was written decades after Jesus died, by someone who was isolated (did the writer have access to the synoptic gospels?) and knew little about him. It is a work of theology, not of history.

What do you think Jesus was claiming in John 10:25-33?

 

[alang1216]

So you are claiming a conspiracy, right?

See post #91 and 92 for the words of Jesus.

Unless you are saying it's all a massive conspiracy, right?

Christianity evolved from Judaism. Jesus would have been quite surprise that the religion of Jesus became the religion about Jesus. If you read the gospels chronologically you can trace the changes in how Jesus is portrayed. The writers of the gospels were concerned with theology only. If history didn't fit the evolving theology, theology took precedence.

 

[ding]

Christianity evolved from Judaism. Jesus would have been quite surprise that the religion of Jesus became the religion about Jesus. If you read the gospels chronologically you can trace the changes in how Jesus is portrayed. The writers of the gospels were concerned with theology only. If history didn't fit the evolving theology, theology took precedence.

Because of what Jesus Christ did.

If the account of Jesus healing the leper were true, what would you say about that?

 

[alang1216]

So massive conspiracy? Why are you afraid to say that?

Conspiracy implies a plan and an organization. I think the evolution of Christianity was more of a grassroots thing. Only later did it get ossified by the Roman church.

 

[Robert W]

The Constitution prohibits the hierarchy of Churches/Religions from being involved in State/Federal government. Popes, bishops, priests, ministers are set apart from government. However, this separation does not apply to the laity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states the vocation of the laity:

898 "By reason of their special vocation it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and directing them according to God's will....

899 The initiative of lay Christians is necessary especially when the matter involves discovering or inventing the means for permeating social, political, and economic realities with the demands of Christian doctrine and life. This initiative is a normal element of the life of the Church….

People/citizens of faith are not only citizens of a nation, but are also citizens of the Kingdom of God. It is not only our right, but our duty to permeate the social, political, and economic realities within our governments.

It is a block on Government and not on religion. Religion can do as it pleases. State can not participate in say tithing to a church of having Govt. people there to manage church.

 

[ding]

Conspiracy implies a plan and an organization. I think the evolution of Christianity was more of a grassroots thing. Only later did it get ossified by the Roman church.

I think the major problem you have in rejecting these accounts are the 24,000 hand written documents and the behaviors of the early Christians and Apostles who witnessed these events and behaved the way they did. This is evidence that you willfully reject without any evidence to do so.

The words of Christ and the actions of Christ are the reason these early Christians and Apostles behaved the way they did.

Only two options exist; either Jesus is who he said he was or this was the mother of all conspiracies. I reject the latter because there's no possible way to pull that off and because of the behaviors of the early Christians and the apostles.

You reject the former because believing in God offends your sensibilities.

 

[alang1216]

Because of what Jesus Christ did.

If the account of Jesus healing the leper were true, what would you say about that?

I'd say it was a miracle. I don't believe in miracles because I've never seen one. The followers of Jesus faced a difficult task, converting pagans. The pagans had to be convinced that Jesus was more powerful than their gods so they told stories of Jesus' miracles and that he was fathered by God.

 

[ding]

I'd say it was a miracle. I don't believe in miracles because I've never seen one. The followers of Jesus faced a difficult task, converting pagans. The pagans had to be convinced that Jesus was more powerful than their gods so they told stories of Jesus' miracles and that he was fathered by God.

There are over 40 miracles attributed to Christ and can be categorized by:

• Healing miracles: Curing illnesses and physical impairments
• Exorcisms: Casting out unclean spirits and demons
• Nature miracles: Calming storms and feeding multitudes
• Restoration miracles: Raising the dead and restoring life

I'm guessing you reject each and everyone for no good reason.

 

[ding]

I don't believe in miracles because I've never seen one

You reject the universe popping into existence from nothing being hardwired to produce intelligence for the same reason.

But you don't reject life arising from inanimate matter.

Both of which are miracles.

 

[alang1216]

I think the major problem you have in rejecting these accounts are the 24,000 hand written documents and the behaviors of the early Christians and Apostles who witnessed these events and behaved the way they did. This is evidence that you willfully reject without any evidence to do so.

The words of Christ and the actions of Christ are the reason these early Christians and Apostles behaved the way they did.

Only two options exist; either Jesus is who he said he was or this was the mother of all conspiracies. I reject the latter because there's no possible way to pull that off and because of the behaviors of the early Christians and the apostles.

You reject the former because believing in God offends your sensibilities.

I disagree. First off, we don't know who wrote the NT. Secondly, if the words of Christ were widely known there would not have been any disagreements in early Christianity and we know that is not the case. Even so fundamental an issue as do converts first need to become Jews before becoming Christians was widely debated and Paul won the debate and was the one who finally opened Christianity to all.

 

[ding]

Seemed to me as a very young boy that it would be simple for God to prove he spoke to someone. Just have that someone say look for a supernova in Virgo next week. The fact He doesn't shows he either doesn't want a spokesman or he doesn't exist, IMHO. Either way, it says to me that if someone says they know what God wants, thinks, or feels, they are deluded.

So going back to this...

God has spoken to you and you rejected it.

 

[alang1216]

There are over 40 miracles attributed to Christ and can be categorized by:

• Healing miracles: Curing illnesses and physical impairments
• Exorcisms: Casting out unclean spirits and demons
• Nature miracles: Calming storms and feeding multitudes
• Restoration miracles: Raising the dead and restoring life

I'm guessing you reject each and everyone for no good reason.

Have you ever seen a such miracles?

 

[ding]

I disagree. First off, we don't know who wrote the NT. Secondly, if the words of Christ were widely known there would not have been any disagreements in early Christianity and we know that is not the case. Even so fundamental an issue as do converts first need to become Jews before becoming Christians was widely debated and Paul won the debate and was the one who finally opened Christianity to all.

Over 40 miracles, 24,000 written manuscripts and the behaviors of the early Christians and Apostles.

There's your evidence. There's your proof.

 

[ding]

Have you ever seen a such miracles?

No. The ones I have seen are of a much smaller scale and wouldn't even be noticed by people like you, but were extremely powerful for me. I've seen how God has worked in my life and the lives of others. I am richer for it.

 

[alang1216]

You reject the universe popping into existence from nothing being hardwired to produce intelligence for the same reason.

But you don't reject life arising from inanimate matter.

Both of which are miracles.

Only if you can show me the later is impossible under the laws of nature.

 

[alang1216]

Over 40 miracles, 24,000 written manuscripts and the behaviors of the early Christians and Apostles.

There's your evidence. There's your proof.

Neither of us can produce ANY proofs. I am convinced by other evidence you don't include in your list.

 

[ding]

if the words of Christ were widely known there would not have been any disagreements in early Christianity and we know that is not the case.

Such as?

But are you really arguing diversity of thought is a good reason not to believe something?

 

[alang1216]

No. The ones I have seen are of a much smaller scale and wouldn't even be noticed by people like you, but were extremely powerful for me. I've seen how God has worked in my life and the lives of others. I am richer for it.

I am glad for you.

 

[ding]

Neither of us can produce ANY proofs. I am convinced by other evidence you don't include in your list.

I've been filled with the Holy Spirit and asked for God to remove it because I could not bear it. God was giving me my comeuppance. He has a very wicked sense of humor.

So I am telling you now, unless you soften your hard heart, you won't be able to tolerate his love when the time comes.