Serious Bible question for those in the know

[Procrustes Stretched]

All through my childhood, religion, church and God was used to harm me. The "Christians" I knew used their Bible as a weapon and always made it very clear that I would never be "good enough".
I appreciate your honesty and your openness, Jeremiah. You seem to be very unlike others in this thread and unlike many other "Christians" I have known. If you know of an open and welcoming real Christian website, would you mind sharing the url?

Thanks.

I fully understand your bitterness towards Christians. I also understand your confusion about Christianity stemming from the behavior of Christians. I've stood in your shoes.

To get a quick and clear understanding of Christianity, I recommend reading the Sermon on the Mount. It's only about 5 pages. It's in the first book of the New Testament, the book of Matthew. Most Bibles will have the words of Christ in red. When advising the curious about Christianity, many people will say, "read the red parts" As was said before in this thread, if you learn about Christ, there's no way a sane human would not want to emulate his behavior.

When you read the Sermon on the Mount it will reinforce what you already think about Christians. We fall far short of the high bar set by Christ. For a human to attempt to follow Christ is a trail of failure. The standard he sets for us is more than any human can achieve. Some achieve more than others. I'm an abject failure but I know I must continue to try. Your curiosity is part of such an attempt.

Why did I go to the trouble of posting this in response to your question? I've been exactly where you seem to be. The contradiction between the behavior of Christians and the reality of what Christ offers was too far of a leap for me to rationally make. In your bitter posts, I hear my voice from not too long ago. I wish for you the peace I have now. It's yours for the asking and you are starting to ask. Bravo.

I'm no expert but this site might help with any Bible questions you have. Just type a word or question in the search window and you'll get several responses:
Bible Questions Answered


All the best, Bill

To get a clear understanding of Christianity and it's Bible, reading a friggin sermon is a complete waste of time

Read about where and what the Chrstian movement came out of and how it evolved into what we know today. Reading the Bible(C) is not what the early Christians did. They wrote the Bible(C) and later fought over what would and would not go into it.

they slaughtered each other over fine points they called heresies. The history is enough to turn any thinking person away from Christianity




Desert Fathers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Church Fathers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doctor of the Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You will get answers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Trent

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The Council of Nicea

The Council of Nicea
When Constantine defeated Emperor Licinius in 323 AD he ended the persecutions against the Christian church. Shortly afterwards Christians faced a trouble from within: the Arian controversy began and threatened to divide the church. The problem began in Alexandria, it started as a debate between the bishop Alexander and the presbyter (pastor, or priest) Arius. Arius proposed that if the Father begat the Son, the latter must have had a beginning, that there was a time when he was not, and that his substance was from nothing like the rest of creation. The Council of Nicea, a gathering similar to the one described in Acts 15:4-22, condemned the beliefs of Arius and wrote the first version of the now famous creed proclaiming that the Son was "one in being with the Father" by use of the Greek word "homoousius."
How Controversial was the Arian Controversy?

 

[Avatar4321]

I felt bad last night for not thanking those who actually answered my question, especially Jeremiah. Thank you for not being nasty, rude and insulting. I really do and did appreciate that you took the time to give me actual references, but I realize now that I should have just looked for the information on line.

To those who said that asking a question is "trolling" or that I should read the bible, I would think you would want to help non-Christians understand but instead, this is typical of the behavior of "good Christians". But again, it was my mistake to asking Christians for information about what the Bible says.

Through the years, I've learned to watch two things when dealing with people who rush to tell you they're "good Christians" - your back and your wallet.

Don't like the answer? That doesn't mean it's not correct. The only way to know what's in the Bible is to read it yourself. You can't take someone elses word for it. They could be complete lying or misrepresenting.

It takes five minutes to find a Bible search engine and answer your question and you find the answer in a way where you don't have to take anyone else's word on it. You seem happy with Jeremiah's response. I have no reason to doubt he is correct, but by taking his word for it, you haven't actually learned what the Bible says. You've only learned what Jeremiah says the Bible says.

Instead of geniunely trying to learn, you've used every excuse to use this to attack Christians. Is there any surprise people think you are trolling? The very fact that you don't really want to know what the Bible says on the matter tells everyone that you aren't sincere in your desire to learn.

If you want to know what the Bible says, you need to read the Bible. Go straight to the source. Don't ask others what it says. And if you have questions and want to understand what the Bible is teaching, go to the Lord who inspired it. He can clarify your understanding.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I did some bible reading in Sunday school but I haven't been inside a church for other than a wedding or a funeral for more than, omfg I'm gittin old, 50 years. From a college course almost that many years ago, I seem to remember that the Bible does not mention the existence of a "devil", only something about Lucifer being an angel who went over to the Dark Side or some such.

I'll google this but -

Does the Christian Bible identify Lucifer as the "devil" or a "demon" or .................?

TIA

The name Lucifer is mentioned once in the bible, Isaiah 14:12 In that verse it says, "How thou art fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations. ( Verse 13 continues......) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High. ( God Almighty alone is the Most High)

In these verses it is describing the fall of Lucifer ( in which he took one third of the angels in heaven with him ) and the reason for it: PRIDE. he said in his heart he would ascend higher than God and even be like God! In another chapter of Isaiah Lucifer is referred to as a blacksmith a mere tool God is using to shape and mold us through various trials on the earth, etc.

If heaven is perfect how/why did the angels revolt and go to war?
So once christians go to heaven will there be war there then?
Judging from some who clim to be christians I say a definate yes.

The angels revolted because after God had created man, He told the angels that mankind would be held higher than they are, because God had endowed mankind with free will, which the angels didn't have.

Lucifer got upset, because not only was mankind weaker than the angels, they were also newcomers on the block, and Lucifer didn't think it was fair that mankind was allowed to be held higher than them, as they came before man.

 

[Avatar4321]

I felt bad last night for not thanking those who actually answered my question, especially Jeremiah. Thank you for not being nasty, rude and insulting. I really do and did appreciate that you took the time to give me actual references, but I realize now that I should have just looked for the information on line.

To those who said that asking a question is "trolling" or that I should read the bible, I would think you would want to help non-Christians understand but instead, this is typical of the behavior of "good Christians". But again, it was my mistake to asking Christians for information about what the Bible says.

Through the years, I've learned to watch two things when dealing with people who rush to tell you they're "good Christians" - your back and your wallet.

You really have no concept of learning, do you?

If you ask a professor about any book, and admit that you have never read it, the first thing they will say to you is that you should read it. People are not telling you to read the Bible because they are Christians and are trying to brainwash you, they are telling you that because reading it is the only way to understand it.

Too bad you didn't read what I actually wrote. If you had, you would know that I have read the bible, both as a Sunday school attendant and in a college comparative religion course. I don't remember every single thing the bible says about every single issue and my bet is that not one of you holier-than-thou bible thumpers does either.

My reason for asking is that someone said, in a different thread, something like, 'Demons look you in the eye and say they are demons'.

I did not say, nor did I even HINT that anyone was trying to "brainwash" me. That is an outright lie.

Sheila, you are quite right that I don't much care for those who insist on shoving their beliefs down the throats of others. I don't do that to you because I really don't have any interest in whether your beliefs match my own.

While I have NO respect for those who screech to the rooftops about what great Christians they are, I have great respect and even greater admiration for those who quietly ACT like Christians.

Again, my thanks to those who simply tried to answer a very straightforward question without the lectures and name calling. If I want information about Christianity and/or those who SAY they believe in it, I'll try to remember not to ask here.

In other words, you don't like the Christians who actually attempt to fulfill their responsibility to share the Gospel with others. You like the ones who shut up.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Major portions of the "Sermon on the mount, have been found in texts far preceeding the brith of Christ.

"Moreover, the Sermon on the Mount - supposedly the original monologue straight out of the mouth of the Son of God Himself - can be shown to be a series of Old Testament scriptures strung together, along with, apparently, such texts from Qumran. No "historical" founder was necessary at all to speak these words, as they are a rehash of extant sayings. (Even in this patent literary device the gospels cannot agree, as Luke 6:17-49 depicts the Sermon as having taken place on a plain.)"

http://freethoughtnation.com/index....d=280:dead-sea-scrolls-prove-bible-unoriginal

 

[Avatar4321]

I was the biggest critic of the bible years ago. I absolutely despised christians and thought they were biggest hypocrites on the face of the earth. Then I had my own encounter with God and found out I hated who I "thought" He was and that he hated organized dead religion as much as I did! ha! ha! Talk about being floored! It has been an ongoing relationship to get to Know God and THEN ( as you so beautifully described it here in this thread ) you can begin to get to know Him through the bible. I really don't see God as a brutal egomaniac demanding to be worshiped. I see God as my creator and the one who has the best interests - intention for my life. He isn't a dictator and if people do not wish to know Him they don't have to know Him but in my opinion they are missing out on one of the most enriching relationships one could ever hope to have.

People are under the false assumption christians can't sin. Oh yes they can oh yes they do.. no one is perfect and that goes for the christian as well because sinless perfection simply doesn't exist. I have my moments when I see the level of corruption about me inside the USA. The truth is I believe nothing escapes his attention and there is a reason for all of this happening. I would never claim perfection in my own walk - I have more flaws than most christians I believe - but forgiven? Yes, I feel completely reconciled to God over my past. I'm free. - Jeremiah

I have no idea who thinks Christian's can't sin. I hope any that do learn that all humans sin.

 

[Avatar4321]

All through my childhood, religion, church and God was used to harm me. The "Christians" I knew used their Bible as a weapon and always made it very clear that I would never be "good enough".

I appreciate your honesty and your openness, Jeremiah. You seem to be very unlike others in this thread and unlike many other "Christians" I have known. If you know of an open and welcoming real Christian website, would you mind sharing the url?

Thanks.

You aren't good enough. None of us are. That's the whole point of Christianity. If we were good enough, we wouldn't need a Savior. We wouldn't need an Atonement and Redemption.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Major portions of the "Sermon on the mount, havv been found in texts far preceeding the brith of Christ.

The story of Moses and a babe and water and being rescued and becoming a hero is repeated in mythology predating the Hebrews. It is found in almost every culture that farmed near water. Where nomadic tribal cultures existed away from water there are myths similar in nature except something else, earth, plants...stand in for the water

 

[Avatar4321]

we read the Garden ...

oddly the fallen angels does not occur to Bible Christians their book may be the same, as misinterpretation's and its consequences - by its History of persecution.

certainly believing Mankind to be particular among the creatures is undoubtedly one of them - and is a reason not to read the book any further.

Could you possibly elaborate? What you're saying isn't making much sense.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The Bible is a quaint book. What it says was written by men. No super natural being was involved in the writing of it

these are cold hard facts

 

[ABikerSailor]

All through my childhood, religion, church and God was used to harm me. The "Christians" I knew used their Bible as a weapon and always made it very clear that I would never be "good enough".

I appreciate your honesty and your openness, Jeremiah. You seem to be very unlike others in this thread and unlike many other "Christians" I have known. If you know of an open and welcoming real Christian website, would you mind sharing the url?

Thanks.

You aren't good enough. None of us are. That's the whole point of Christianity. If we were good enough, we wouldn't need a Savior. We wouldn't need an Atonement and Redemption.

Why would someone want to join a group that tells them they aren't good enough?

God loves us all, He also would like us to take care of each other.

You become "good enough" when you follow the 10 Commandments and take care of the planet and your fellow humans.

 

[Vandalshandle]

God created us, with our having free will, so that if we choose not to believe all the third hand testamoney about him, then he will condmn us to everlasting hell and torment....but he loves us!!!!!!

It is a difficult concept for me to grasp. If my daughter did not treat me with respect, I grounded her a week, and took away her computer. She would have to have been a good deal more than disrespectful for me to condemn her to everlasting hell and torment.

 

[Hollie]

All through my childhood, religion, church and God was used to harm me. The "Christians" I knew used their Bible as a weapon and always made it very clear that I would never be "good enough".

I appreciate your honesty and your openness, Jeremiah. You seem to be very unlike others in this thread and unlike many other "Christians" I have known. If you know of an open and welcoming real Christian website, would you mind sharing the url?

Thanks.

You aren't good enough. None of us are. That's the whole point of Christianity. If we were good enough, we wouldn't need a Savior. We wouldn't need an Atonement and Redemption.

Why would someone want to join a group that tells them they aren't good enough?

God loves us all, He also would like us to take care of each other.

You become "good enough" when you follow the 10 Commandments and take care of the planet and your fellow humans.

“Why would someone want to join a group that tells them they aren't good enough?”.

That’s a great observation. Living a life with the belief that you are evil, base and unworthy is a sad existence. In every case I can imagine, such a belief is negative and harmful.

Honestly, would anyone raise their children by instilling in them such a grotesque self-image?

From the Atheistic point of view, the theist cannot withstand a world where in humans are the final owners of our destiny, that acts need to be watched over and adjudicated by a father figure from on high (and never seen), and that human progress is inherently hindered, impossible without the guidance of the father figure. Finally, the theist is in a psychological dilemma of superiority/inferiority -- they are so vaunted by their gods that the entire realm of existence was created exclusively for them, but they are so unworthy that they are but minions in the sight of their deities. That is a prescription for a maladjusted personality, and again, it's evident by the seething passions that theistic belief has whipped up time and time again.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

God created us, with our having free will, so that if we choose not to believe all the third hand testamoney about him, then he will condmn us to everlasting hell and torment....but he loves us!!!!!!

It is a difficult concept for me to grasp. If my daughter did not treat me with respect, I grounded her a week, and took away her computer. She would have to have been a good deal more than disrespectful for me to condemn her to everlasting hell and torment.

But you're not a Hebrew, Christian, or Muslim

See?

 

[Vandalshandle]

You aren't good enough. None of us are. That's the whole point of Christianity. If we were good enough, we wouldn't need a Savior. We wouldn't need an Atonement and Redemption.

Why would someone want to join a group that tells them they aren't good enough?

God loves us all, He also would like us to take care of each other.

You become "good enough" when you follow the 10 Commandments and take care of the planet and your fellow humans.

“Why would someone want to join a group that tells them they aren't good enough?”.

That’s a great observation. Living a life with the belief that you are evil, base and unworthy is a sad existence. In every case I can imagine, such a belief is negative and harmful.

Honestly, would anyone raise their children by instilling in them such a grotesque self-image?

From the Atheistic point of view, the theist cannot withstand a world where in humans are the final owners of our destiny, that acts need to be watched over and adjudicated by a father figure from on high (and never seen), and that human progress is inherently hindered, impossible without the guidance of the father figure. Finally, the theist is in a psychological dilemma of superiority/inferiority -- they are so vaunted by their gods that the entire realm of existence was created exclusively for them, but they are so unworthy that they are but minions in the sight of their deities. That is a prescription for a maladjusted personality, and again, it's evident by the seething passions that theistic belief has whipped up time and time again.

This worries me, Hollie. Are you sure that we are allowed to tell the truth here? I'm going outside to put up lightning rods. If I don't come back, notify my daughter.

 

[Avatar4321]

All through my childhood, religion, church and God was used to harm me. The "Christians" I knew used their Bible as a weapon and always made it very clear that I would never be "good enough".

I appreciate your honesty and your openness, Jeremiah. You seem to be very unlike others in this thread and unlike many other "Christians" I have known. If you know of an open and welcoming real Christian website, would you mind sharing the url?

Thanks.

You aren't good enough. None of us are. That's the whole point of Christianity. If we were good enough, we wouldn't need a Savior. We wouldn't need an Atonement and Redemption.

Why would someone want to join a group that tells them they aren't good enough?

God loves us all, He also would like us to take care of each other.

You become "good enough" when you follow the 10 Commandments and take care of the planet and your fellow humans.

Because the group tells them they don't have to be good enough. We just have to do our best and rely on the atonement.

Most people don't follow the 10 commandments. Most dont even know them.

 

[Avatar4321]

You aren't good enough. None of us are. That's the whole point of Christianity. If we were good enough, we wouldn't need a Savior. We wouldn't need an Atonement and Redemption.

Why would someone want to join a group that tells them they aren't good enough?

God loves us all, He also would like us to take care of each other.

You become "good enough" when you follow the 10 Commandments and take care of the planet and your fellow humans.

“Why would someone want to join a group that tells them they aren't good enough?”.

That’s a great observation. Living a life with the belief that you are evil, base and unworthy is a sad existence. In every case I can imagine, such a belief is negative and harmful.

Honestly, would anyone raise their children by instilling in them such a grotesque self-image?

From the Atheistic point of view, the theist cannot withstand a world where in humans are the final owners of our destiny, that acts need to be watched over and adjudicated by a father figure from on high (and never seen), and that human progress is inherently hindered, impossible without the guidance of the father figure. Finally, the theist is in a psychological dilemma of superiority/inferiority -- they are so vaunted by their gods that the entire realm of existence was created exclusively for them, but they are so unworthy that they are but minions in the sight of their deities. That is a prescription for a maladjusted personality, and again, it's evident by the seething passions that theistic belief has whipped up time and time again.

You would much rather lie to people and tell them they are perfect in every way? Have you read any of the posts on this board? Anywhere else on the internet? Can you name a single person in the entire world who has done no wrong?

No, prescription for a maladjusted society is continually lying to yourself and convincing yourself you are better than others because you are "smarter" than they are and can do no wrong.

This is probably why you guys blindly believe Government will fix all our problems. You don't see that people are naturally corrupt and corruptable.

 

[Avatar4321]

This worries me, Hollie. Are you sure that we are allowed to tell the truth here? I'm going outside to put up lightning rods. If I don't come back, notify my daughter.

You are always allowed to tell the truth. The question is: Are you capable?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I was the biggest critic of the bible years ago. I absolutely despised christians and thought they were biggest hypocrites on the face of the earth. Then I had my own encounter with God and found out I hated who I "thought" He was and that he hated organized dead religion as much as I did! ha! ha! Talk about being floored! It has been an ongoing relationship to get to Know God and THEN ( as you so beautifully described it here in this thread ) you can begin to get to know Him through the bible. I really don't see God as a brutal egomaniac demanding to be worshiped. I see God as my creator and the one who has the best interests - intention for my life. He isn't a dictator and if people do not wish to know Him they don't have to know Him but in my opinion they are missing out on one of the most enriching relationships one could ever hope to have.

People are under the false assumption christians can't sin. Oh yes they can oh yes they do.. no one is perfect and that goes for the christian as well because sinless perfection simply doesn't exist. I have my moments when I see the level of corruption about me inside the USA. The truth is I believe nothing escapes his attention and there is a reason for all of this happening. I would never claim perfection in my own walk - I have more flaws than most christians I believe - but forgiven? Yes, I feel completely reconciled to God over my past. I'm free. - Jeremiah

I have no idea who thinks Christian's can't sin. I hope any that do learn that all humans sin.

Yes, let us hope it is the exception and not the rule however.. Amen? As to this thread his responses were very intelligent and thought provoking and have caused me to examine myself to see is there something I am doing that is offending others and keeping them from seeing Jesus in me? Yes, I must confess there is.

I have answered political discussions with my own opinion, findings, articles and not once did I ever feel the leading of the Holy Spirit to do such a thing. In fact, I felt a check in my spirit that it wasn't something I should engage in and after meeting Neddly I know why. A laborer should be focused on reconciliation and there is nothing but division in political discussions. So I will no longer engage in those type discussions.

Tell me, if we divide ourselves as democrats and republicans rather than people at different stages with different challenges all trying to make sense of things in their own way.. how successful do you think we will be at ministering to them if they happen to be the "other party"?

Offense is such a serious thing. Jesus told John the Baptist blessed is he who is not offended in me. Do you remember the story?

John was in prison waiting for an answer..... he had just been given word his head was requested by Salamay ( at the urging of her mother) and granted by the King. Time was running out. He sends word to Jesus, are you the one or shall we look for another?

In other words, why aren't you getting me out of here? You are the Son of God! John was a tremendous holy prophet of God but even he got offended and his offense was in Christ not answering when he expected him to. What does that tell us? It tells us that the most accomplished runner is capable of a fall. It tells us that satan loves using the weapon of offense to keep the world from hearing the good news.. But do not get into OFFENSE and stay there. Its' deadly.

Jesus wasted no time going straight to the core of the problem with John and I have no doubt that John fully accepted the fact he would not be rescued but rather beheaded.

One of the most powerful witnesses that the world needs to see and understand is the Bible is the Living Word of God and that Jesus is the Son of God and that Living Word through whom all mankind is redeemed if only they will accept the pardon and believe He is who He says he is. Romans 10:8.

No where is that truth more self evident than when Christians are put to death in hostile nations. You see the peace of God on their faces, their love for the people who are stoning them to death, crucifying them on trees in Sudan, burying them alive in Darfur, holding them in prisons for no other crime than loving God. Yet their faces beam with joy, with love, with peace in the face of death. Yes, their fearlessness is a sign of their salvation while for their persecutors their fear is a sign of their perdition. ( thats scripture, mind you )

No other religion can do this because no other religion is based on a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Only those who are truly saved can readily go to their deaths because they know that the moment their spirit leaves their bodies they will be present with the LORD. Truly that momentary affliction cannot be compared to the eternal weight of glory awaiting them. They are counting it all joy.... the martyrs crown, the soul winners crown, these crowns that they will cast at the feet of Jesus as the 24 elders in Revelation did.....

Hebrews 11 is the hall of famers for faith and gives account of those who went to their deaths with great joy. We are coming up on a time such as this again. The world will once again persecute Christians such as the book of Acts describes and with that will be the greatest harvest of souls the world has ever seen. It's at the door even now.