Serious Bible question for those in the know

[Book of Jeremiah]

Lucifer is an angel.

No, Lucifer WAS an angel. He is now a fallen angel. At least that's the way I interpret it.

You're right! Exactly!

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Some intelligent and very thought provoking posts.

I'm glad I came back to read them but I must say, "you" have left me with many more questions.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

All through my childhood, religion, church and God was used to harm me. The "Christians" I knew used their Bible as a weapon and always made it very clear that I would never be "good enough".

I appreciate your honesty and your openness, Jeremiah. You seem to be very unlike others in this thread and unlike many other "Christians" I have known. If you know of an open and welcoming real Christian website, would you mind sharing the url?

Thanks.

You aren't good enough. None of us are. That's the whole point of Christianity. If we were good enough, we wouldn't need a Savior. We wouldn't need an Atonement and Redemption.

Why would someone want to join a group that tells them they aren't good enough?

God loves us all, He also would like us to take care of each other.

You become "good enough" when you follow the 10 Commandments and take care of the planet and your fellow humans.

Here is how you become "good enough". You acknowledge the truth of the bible, the scriptures declare all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. You accept that when God said he is no respector of persons ( showing favoritism) he means it. You can accept that God is not a man that he should lie and if he gives you a promise through His Holy Word ( the Bible ) you can bank on it He is going to keep that promise to you.

The whole world might let you down but God will not let you down. His desire is to have fellowship with you and the way to that fellowship is through His Son Jesus Christ whose shed blood at the cross has payed the penalty for every sin you have ever commited and every sin you ever will commit.

That is why it is called redemption. Jesus Christ redeemed you at the cross. What is your part? Being good enough? Good luck with that. NO. You'll NEVER be good enough. When you accept Christ death at the cross, his resurrection on the 3rd day from the grave, his being seated at the right hand of the father intereceding for you day and night, when you accept that this is what he has done for you so that you can be where he is eternally?

All you have to do is say.........yes. I believe it. Yes. I receive eternal salvation from you now Jesus. I want to be forgive for my sins and I want my name written in your lambs book of Life ( Luke 10:20) I confess with my mouth and believe in my heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to earth to redeem me from sin and death and eternal separation from God. (Romans 10:8 ) I recieve his free gift of salvation I didn't earn because I could NEVER be good enough and I thank God I'm forgiven. It is finished.

When Satan comes around to remind you of your past? Tell him God has forgiven you of all your sins and doesn't remember them. Neither do you. You are a brand new creation in Christ when you receive him into your heart. The old things have passed away and all things are new. He is doing a new thing now. Enjoy God. He wants you to enjoy Him!

- Jeremiah

 

[Quantum Windbag]

READ the bible???

No thanks. I already said I put in my time already.

I'd sooner read The Collected Works of The Tooth Fairy and its certainly just as meaningful.

As to the reason for my question - My memory was that "The Devil" was a relatively modern day construct. Just more of the agenda-driven fairy tale that Avatar says was removed by "the adversary".

I gotta hand it to bible thumpers - they always have a retort. And, when all else fails, there's always that good old standby, "god moves in mysterious ways". LOL

It's a bit silly to be a critic of the Bible when you don't even understand it and admit to not wanting to understand.

Makes you look foolish.

It's like being a gun critic when you've never owned one, never fired one, never seen one in real life, or never learned their capabilities.

Not really. All one has to do is look at the effects of belief in a such a book, in terms of the bigotry and scientific ignorance which are common among the bible thumpers, to become sufficiently disinterested in its theological propositions and rightfully conclude that it contains no wisdom that can't be found elsewhere. Christians, Muslims and Jews, who all purportedly praise the same god, are no more moral or enlightened than anyone else.

You think Freeman Dyson is bigoted and scientifically ignorant? How about Robert Griffiths, Joan Roughgarten, or Pamela Gay? Is it remotely possible that the ignorance and bigotry actually exist inside your own mind?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I did some bible reading in Sunday school but I haven't been inside a church for other than a wedding or a funeral for more than, omfg I'm gittin old, 50 years. From a college course almost that many years ago, I seem to remember that the Bible does not mention the existence of a "devil", only something about Lucifer being an angel who went over to the Dark Side or some such.

I'll google this but -

Does the Christian Bible identify Lucifer as the "devil" or a "demon" or .................?

TIA

The name Lucifer is mentioned once in the bible, Isaiah 14:12 In that verse it says, "How thou art fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations. ( Verse 13 continues......) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High. ( God Almighty alone is the Most High)

In these verses it is describing the fall of Lucifer ( in which he took one third of the angels in heaven with him ) and the reason for it: PRIDE. he said in his heart he would ascend higher than God and even be like God! In another chapter of Isaiah Lucifer is referred to as a blacksmith a mere tool God is using to shape and mold us through various trials on the earth, etc.

the existence of a "devil" or "angels": are they real? are they mentioned in the Bible and what do they mean, what do they refer too as symbols in myth?

The early Christians debated this and what you will most likely get is answers from the great unwashed, the ignorati, the Bible thumpers, on what they 'read' in the Bible. Take the Bible out of the context of early church history and you get an ignorant Christian religion no different in ignorance than the ignorance of those who hijack Islam for terrorism. They are all ignorant.

Desert Fathers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Church Fathers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doctor of the Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You will get answers

Because Dante is an expert in everything, except Dante forgot to mention that Jewish scholars have been debating these things for far longer than the Christians, which implies that Dante does not know everything.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Major portions of the "Sermon on the mount, have been found in texts far preceeding the brith of Christ.

"Moreover, the Sermon on the Mount - supposedly the original monologue straight out of the mouth of the Son of God Himself - can be shown to be a series of Old Testament scriptures strung together, along with, apparently, such texts from Qumran. No "historical" founder was necessary at all to speak these words, as they are a rehash of extant sayings. (Even in this patent literary device the gospels cannot agree, as Luke 6:17-49 depicts the Sermon as having taken place on a plain.)"

Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal

Another expert graces us with his knowledge. Instead of making vague allegations why don't you point out exactly where the Sermon on the Mount is in the Dead Sea Scrolls? I even have a link to all of them posted online to make it easier for you.

Digital Dead Sea Scrolls

 

[Quantum Windbag]

All through my childhood, religion, church and God was used to harm me. The "Christians" I knew used their Bible as a weapon and always made it very clear that I would never be "good enough".

I appreciate your honesty and your openness, Jeremiah. You seem to be very unlike others in this thread and unlike many other "Christians" I have known. If you know of an open and welcoming real Christian website, would you mind sharing the url?

Thanks.

You aren't good enough. None of us are. That's the whole point of Christianity. If we were good enough, we wouldn't need a Savior. We wouldn't need an Atonement and Redemption.

Why would someone want to join a group that tells them they aren't good enough?

God loves us all, He also would like us to take care of each other.

You become "good enough" when you follow the 10 Commandments and take care of the planet and your fellow humans.

It is impossible to follow the 10 Commandments.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

God created us, with our having free will, so that if we choose not to believe all the third hand testamoney about him, then he will condmn us to everlasting hell and torment....but he loves us!!!!!!

It is a difficult concept for me to grasp. If my daughter did not treat me with respect, I grounded her a week, and took away her computer. She would have to have been a good deal more than disrespectful for me to condemn her to everlasting hell and torment.

That is as unoriginal an argument against the existence of God has ever been uttered. One would think that someone who had actually read the Dead Sea Scrolls would be able to do better.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The name Lucifer is mentioned once in the bible, Isaiah 14:12 In that verse it says, "How thou art fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations. ( Verse 13 continues......) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High. ( God Almighty alone is the Most High)

In these verses it is describing the fall of Lucifer ( in which he took one third of the angels in heaven with him ) and the reason for it: PRIDE. he said in his heart he would ascend higher than God and even be like God! In another chapter of Isaiah Lucifer is referred to as a blacksmith a mere tool God is using to shape and mold us through various trials on the earth, etc.

the existence of a "devil" or "angels": are they real? are they mentioned in the Bible and what do they mean, what do they refer too as symbols in myth?

The early Christians debated this and what you will most likely get is answers from the great unwashed, the ignorati, the Bible thumpers, on what they 'read' in the Bible. Take the Bible out of the context of early church history and you get an ignorant Christian religion no different in ignorance than the ignorance of those who hijack Islam for terrorism. They are all ignorant.

Desert Fathers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Church Fathers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doctor of the Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You will get answers

Because Dante is an expert in everything, except Dante forgot to mention that Jewish scholars have been debating these things for far longer than the Christians, which implies that Dante does not know everything.

Except if QuanticuckooDooshbagh had read what he comments on he'd see Dante specifically addressed the Christian Bible

 

[Avatar4321]

Some intelligent and very thought provoking posts.

I'm glad I came back to read them but I must say, "you" have left me with many more questions.

Then ask them. Whether here or somewhere else. There is nothing to fear from honest inquiry.

 

[Avatar4321]

You aren't good enough. None of us are. That's the whole point of Christianity. If we were good enough, we wouldn't need a Savior. We wouldn't need an Atonement and Redemption.

Why would someone want to join a group that tells them they aren't good enough?

God loves us all, He also would like us to take care of each other.

You become "good enough" when you follow the 10 Commandments and take care of the planet and your fellow humans.

It is impossible to follow the 10 Commandments.

How is it impossible to follow the 10 commandments? It seems like a pretty simple act to do. Most just dont do it.

 

[AVG-JOE]

READ the bible???

No thanks. I already said I put in my time already.

I'd sooner read The Collected Works of The Tooth Fairy and its certainly just as meaningful.

As to the reason for my question - My memory was that "The Devil" was a relatively modern day construct. Just more of the agenda-driven fairy tale that Avatar says was removed by "the adversary".

I gotta hand it to bible thumpers - they always have a retort. And, when all else fails, there's always that good old standby, "god moves in mysterious ways". LOL

It's a bit silly to be a critic of the Bible when you don't even understand it and admit to not wanting to understand.

Makes you look foolish.

It's like being a gun critic when you've never owned one, never fired one, never seen one in real life, or never learned their capabilities.

I don't completely understand the Koran, but I understand enough to know that it's just another ancient creation story. In that respect, knowing a lot more about the ancient creation story commonly called 'The Bible' makes absolutely no difference in formulating a valid opinion on each story individually.

Same as it being quite possible for someone who has never handled a firearm to be strongly opinionated on the subject. Ask any ER doc in Chicago who has never handled a firearm.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Some intelligent and very thought provoking posts.

I'm glad I came back to read them but I must say, "you" have left me with many more questions.

Luddley! Forgive me I was saying Neddly and I don't know how I missed that. I am glad to see you back as I must thank you! I had been feeling this uneasy feeling about some discussions I had replied to earlier today and thought what is that? I feel like I'm taking a bath with my socks on! After reading your posts and thinking over what you'd said I realised it was because those discussions were not for me. I should not have replied to those.

Anyway, thank you for helping me to see that. You've done me a huge favor. I didn't see it at all before. Amazing how someone can say something and the entire thing just opens up! I am really grateful as I was wondering what is it about this that doesn't feel right? Now I know! lol!

I'm delighted to answer any question I can and if I don't know it I can possibly ask someone I know who does. Feel free to fire away.. The discussion has been fun. I've enjoyed it and you have really set alot of people to thinking! Including me!

- Jeremiah

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Thank you, Jeremiah but this is obviously not the place to ask serious questions.

I doubt that anyone is doing much thinking. There is just so much anger and dishonesty and bitterness among the Christians who have posted in this thread. I don't now why they're so unhappy but I do know I want no part of any of it. Reading here has has made me remember parts of my childhood that I would prefer to forget.

I'm better off out of it.

 

[Againsheila]

God created us, with our having free will, so that if we choose not to believe all the third hand testamoney about him, then he will condmn us to everlasting hell and torment....but he loves us!!!!!!

It is a difficult concept for me to grasp. If my daughter did not treat me with respect, I grounded her a week, and took away her computer. She would have to have been a good deal more than disrespectful for me to condemn her to everlasting hell and torment.

What you have to understand is that while the Bible was inspired by God, it was written by man and is therefore flawed. I do not believe that you will go to hell because you haven't met Jesus though many Christians do. I believe in purgatory, if you will, even though I'm not Catholic. I think we will all pay for our sins before we are allowed to enter Heaven. Karma is another way of putting it.

 

[williepete]

Some intelligent and very thought provoking posts.

I'm glad I came back to read them but I must say, "you" have left me with many more questions.

Ask away. There is a reason for your curiosity. You are exercising your free will.

 

[Avatar4321]

God created us, with our having free will, so that if we choose not to believe all the third hand testamoney about him, then he will condmn us to everlasting hell and torment....but he loves us!!!!!!

It is a difficult concept for me to grasp. If my daughter did not treat me with respect, I grounded her a week, and took away her computer. She would have to have been a good deal more than disrespectful for me to condemn her to everlasting hell and torment.

First, I've given you first hand testimony about Him. So have the scriptures.

Second, You don't understand the afterlife. Not surprising since much of the Christian world does likewise. God has ensured you are going to be immortal. You will rise in the resurrection. Either the resurrection of the just, or the resurrection of the unjust.

Third, we make our own choice to be in torment. Torment is the natural consequence of the actions of the wicked. Wickedness never was happiness. It can never be happiness. The fullness of joy only comes through living the principles of the plans of happiness. Forgiveness, patience, love, humility, honesty, integrity, sacrifice, diligence, godliness, etc.

Those attributes are impossible to develop without the Atonement. Because our past imperfections would limit them. It's the Atonement that allows us to choose good.

 

[Avatar4321]

Thank you, Jeremiah but this is obviously not the place to ask serious questions.

I doubt that anyone is doing much thinking. There is just so much anger and dishonesty and bitterness among the Christians who have posted in this thread. I don't now why they're so unhappy but I do know I want no part of any of it. Reading here has has made me remember parts of my childhood that I would prefer to forget.

I'm better off out of it.

It doesn't seem like the anger and bitterness is coming from the Christians. At least not a majority of it.

 

[AVG-JOE]

God created us, with our having free will, so that if we choose not to believe all the third hand testamoney about him, then he will condmn us to everlasting hell and torment....but he loves us!!!!!!

It is a difficult concept for me to grasp. If my daughter did not treat me with respect, I grounded her a week, and took away her computer. She would have to have been a good deal more than disrespectful for me to condemn her to everlasting hell and torment.

First, I've given you first hand testimony about Him. So have the scriptures.

Second, You don't understand the afterlife. Not surprising since much of the Christian world does likewise. God has ensured you are going to be immortal. You will rise in the resurrection. Either the resurrection of the just, or the resurrection of the unjust.

Third, we make our own choice to be in torment. Torment is the natural consequence of the actions of the wicked. Wickedness never was happiness. It can never be happiness. The fullness of joy only comes through living the principles of the plans of happiness. Forgiveness, patience, love, humility, honesty, integrity, sacrifice, diligence, godliness, etc.

Those attributes are impossible to develop without the Atonement. Because our past imperfections would limit them. It's the Atonement that allows us to choose good.

And you think you do?

That's arrogant, considering the actual knowledge on the subject.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Some intelligent and very thought provoking posts.

I'm glad I came back to read them but I must say, "you" have left me with many more questions.

Ask away. There is a reason for your curiosity. You are exercising your free will.

I take it you didn't read the entire thread.