Should Churches be forced to accomodate for homosexual weddings?

[Seawytch]

That's all I'm saying. It WILL happen. I never said the gay would win.

Some here just can't read apparently.

Anyone can sue anyone for anything.

This is of course true. But the point remains, people sue over silly shit today that no court would have entertained 20 years ago, and as silly lawsuits become the norm , pressure will be put on the courts to rule in favor of the "injured" party. Especially given the overall anger towards Christians in this country lately.

Don't tell me you can't see the very real possibility of some stupid ass circuit court ruling in favor of a gay. Sure , as of right NOW SCOTUS would overturn, but will they in 10 years? I'm doubtful as we slide further and further into the abyss of stupidity where people don't understand that their rights end where another person's begin.

As I said, 10 years ago, if you had suggested a Christian baker would be ordered by a court to bake a cake for a wedding you would have A) Scoffed at the idea of a gay suing over such a thing rather than just going to a different baker and B) said that there was no way a court would even entertain the case let alone found in the fags favor.

I've honestly never seen 3% of the population cause so much angst and turmoil. They should be embarrassed, I'm embarrassed for them. as they prove time and time again that they are not just wanting EQUALITY. They want to force their lifestyle on everyone.

No I can't see courts forcing a church to join two gays in holy matrimony against the church's will. I think you are sort of missing the point behind the religious ceremony. Maybe mixing it up with the govco marriage license thing. They could sue a ships captn. to marry them on a ship... but that's not necessarily a religious marriage ceremony. Marriage does not equal religious ceremony.

I don't think they could even sue a ship's captain. They could sue a city clerk or someone who performs civil ceremonies as an integral part of their job like a JOP, but even a ship's captain would be a stretch of a lawsuit will little to no chance of winning.

Pray tell why you believe a ship's captain would be exempt.

Because it is not a requirement of their job. He is not paid in any way for his questionable ability to perform wedding ceremonies.

 

[RKMBrown]

Anyone can sue anyone for anything.

This is of course true. But the point remains, people sue over silly shit today that no court would have entertained 20 years ago, and as silly lawsuits become the norm , pressure will be put on the courts to rule in favor of the "injured" party. Especially given the overall anger towards Christians in this country lately.

Don't tell me you can't see the very real possibility of some stupid ass circuit court ruling in favor of a gay. Sure , as of right NOW SCOTUS would overturn, but will they in 10 years? I'm doubtful as we slide further and further into the abyss of stupidity where people don't understand that their rights end where another person's begin.

As I said, 10 years ago, if you had suggested a Christian baker would be ordered by a court to bake a cake for a wedding you would have A) Scoffed at the idea of a gay suing over such a thing rather than just going to a different baker and B) said that there was no way a court would even entertain the case let alone found in the fags favor.

I've honestly never seen 3% of the population cause so much angst and turmoil. They should be embarrassed, I'm embarrassed for them. as they prove time and time again that they are not just wanting EQUALITY. They want to force their lifestyle on everyone.

No I can't see courts forcing a church to join two gays in holy matrimony against the church's will. I think you are sort of missing the point behind the religious ceremony. Maybe mixing it up with the govco marriage license thing. They could sue a ships captn. to marry them on a ship... but that's not necessarily a religious marriage ceremony. Marriage does not equal religious ceremony.

I don't think they could even sue a ship's captain. They could sue a city clerk or someone who performs civil ceremonies as an integral part of their job like a JOP, but even a ship's captain would be a stretch of a lawsuit will little to no chance of winning.

Pray tell why you believe a ship's captain would be exempt.

Because it is not a requirement of their job. He is not paid in any way for his questionable ability to perform wedding ceremonies.

Wedding Cruises Wedding Cruise Packages Destination Weddings Carnival Cruise Lines

 

[Seawytch]

averagebear, like many average field grade officers, misjudge their understanding of issues beyond their training and experience. He does so with this issue.[/QUOTE

I am pro gay marriage Jake. I merely point out that they have an agenda, and forcing churches to marry them is on that agenda.

On that note, why the hell are churches exempt from SOME laws? I mean that is ridiculous. If the separation of church and state that allegedly was meant to exist in this country allows churches to be exempt from SOME laws, then they should be exempt from ALL laws because let's say for instance a Church that believes in killing non believers should be exempt from laws against murder . Oh , people have a right to not be murdered you say? Well, allegedly people have a right to force businesses to do business with them to, how are Churches exempt from those laws?

And I believe that is EXACTLY the route faggots are going to take , and they will be legally correct. The government IS picking and choosing religions when they say "okay if you don't believe in gay marriage you don't have to perform gay marriages" to one religion while telling another religion " oh you believe murder is acceptable? Too fucking bad" to another religion.


and churches ARE businesses

Mega churches mean big business - CNN.com

Churches are exempt from some laws, because they are "private" organizations, and because they are protected by the 1st Amendment. The constitution is VERY CLEAR regarding the protections afforded to religion in this country.

Liberty does not mean the liberty to KILL people.

Churches are not exempt from public accommodation laws. If a church puts up a table selling pumpkins at the local farmers market, they can't discriminate who they sell to.

The religious ceremonies held in a church are not for sale to the public.

Which is exactly what led to the case the bigots like to bring up as "proof" that churches will be sued. A church had an agreement to rent out part of their property to the public. They were, therefore, subject to business laws including (but not limited to) Public Accommodation.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

averagebear, like many average field grade officers, misjudge their understanding of issues beyond their training and experience. He does so with this issue.[/QUOTE

I am pro gay marriage Jake. I merely point out that they have an agenda, and forcing churches to marry them is on that agenda.

On that note, why the hell are churches exempt from SOME laws? I mean that is ridiculous. If the separation of church and state that allegedly was meant to exist in this country allows churches to be exempt from SOME laws, then they should be exempt from ALL laws because let's say for instance a Church that believes in killing non believers should be exempt from laws against murder . Oh , people have a right to not be murdered you say? Well, allegedly people have a right to force businesses to do business with them to, how are Churches exempt from those laws?

And I believe that is EXACTLY the route faggots are going to take , and they will be legally correct. The government IS picking and choosing religions when they say "okay if you don't believe in gay marriage you don't have to perform gay marriages" to one religion while telling another religion " oh you believe murder is acceptable? Too fucking bad" to another religion.


and churches ARE businesses

Mega churches mean big business - CNN.com

Churches are exempt from some laws, because they are "private" organizations, and because they are protected by the 1st Amendment. The constitution is VERY CLEAR regarding the protections afforded to religion in this country.

Liberty does not mean the liberty to KILL people.

Churches are not exempt from public accommodation laws. If a church puts up a table selling pumpkins at the local farmers market, they can't discriminate who they sell to.

The religious ceremonies held in a church are not for sale to the public.

You're not looking at it clearly.

We agree, not being murdered is a right. Legally at least public accommodations are a right.

How can a church be exempt from not violating one right, but not the other? If Church A sues and says "hey if Church B gets to ignore rights that violate their beliefs, why can't we?" How would they be wrong?

And dude, this took me two minutes to find

Wedding Ceremonies - All Souls Church

That church is CLEARLY offering church weddings to the public. I mean that isn't even at question is it?

Once again, MANY churches are BUSINESSES and thus how are they exempt from public accommodation laws? Answer, they won't be when some fag sues.

Your belief that it won't happen is naive at best.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

averagebear, like many average field grade officers, misjudge their understanding of issues beyond their training and experience. He does so with this issue.[/QUOTE

I am pro gay marriage Jake. I merely point out that they have an agenda, and forcing churches to marry them is on that agenda.

On that note, why the hell are churches exempt from SOME laws? I mean that is ridiculous. If the separation of church and state that allegedly was meant to exist in this country allows churches to be exempt from SOME laws, then they should be exempt from ALL laws because let's say for instance a Church that believes in killing non believers should be exempt from laws against murder . Oh , people have a right to not be murdered you say? Well, allegedly people have a right to force businesses to do business with them to, how are Churches exempt from those laws?

And I believe that is EXACTLY the route faggots are going to take , and they will be legally correct. The government IS picking and choosing religions when they say "okay if you don't believe in gay marriage you don't have to perform gay marriages" to one religion while telling another religion " oh you believe murder is acceptable? Too fucking bad" to another religion.


and churches ARE businesses

Mega churches mean big business - CNN.com

Churches are exempt from some laws, because they are "private" organizations, and because they are protected by the 1st Amendment. The constitution is VERY CLEAR regarding the protections afforded to religion in this country.

Liberty does not mean the liberty to KILL people.

Churches are not exempt from public accommodation laws. If a church puts up a table selling pumpkins at the local farmers market, they can't discriminate who they sell to.

The religious ceremonies held in a church are not for sale to the public.

Which is exactly what led to the case the bigots like to bring up as "proof" that churches will be sued. A church had an agreement to rent out part of their property to the public. They were, therefore, subject to business laws including (but not limited to) Public Accommodation.

which leads to what you REALLY want. forcing churches to allow gays to get married in their churches.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Pray tell why you believe a ship's captain would be exempt.

I'd take that bet, especially for a cruise ship where the ship advertises weddings may be performed by the captain for the price of a ticket.

What You Need to Know to Get Married at Sea
The Straight Dope Are ships captains allowed to marry people at sea
Can Boat Captains Really Marry People Mental Floss



>>>>

My wife's a Notary Public, it's not hard to become one.

Didn't say it was hard to become a Notary. That wasn't the question.

A Captain can't perform a Civil Marriage just by virtue of being a ship's Captain. If a Captain is a Notary, then your wife could perform a Civil Marriage because she's a notary, not because she's a ship's Captain. A Captain that is a retired Judge can perform a Civil Marriage also, but not because (s)he's a Captain.



>>>>

 

[Seawytch]

This is of course true. But the point remains, people sue over silly shit today that no court would have entertained 20 years ago, and as silly lawsuits become the norm , pressure will be put on the courts to rule in favor of the "injured" party. Especially given the overall anger towards Christians in this country lately.

Don't tell me you can't see the very real possibility of some stupid ass circuit court ruling in favor of a gay. Sure , as of right NOW SCOTUS would overturn, but will they in 10 years? I'm doubtful as we slide further and further into the abyss of stupidity where people don't understand that their rights end where another person's begin.

As I said, 10 years ago, if you had suggested a Christian baker would be ordered by a court to bake a cake for a wedding you would have A) Scoffed at the idea of a gay suing over such a thing rather than just going to a different baker and B) said that there was no way a court would even entertain the case let alone found in the fags favor.

I've honestly never seen 3% of the population cause so much angst and turmoil. They should be embarrassed, I'm embarrassed for them. as they prove time and time again that they are not just wanting EQUALITY. They want to force their lifestyle on everyone.

No I can't see courts forcing a church to join two gays in holy matrimony against the church's will. I think you are sort of missing the point behind the religious ceremony. Maybe mixing it up with the govco marriage license thing. They could sue a ships captn. to marry them on a ship... but that's not necessarily a religious marriage ceremony. Marriage does not equal religious ceremony.

I don't think they could even sue a ship's captain. They could sue a city clerk or someone who performs civil ceremonies as an integral part of their job like a JOP, but even a ship's captain would be a stretch of a lawsuit will little to no chance of winning.

Pray tell why you believe a ship's captain would be exempt.

Because it is not a requirement of their job. He is not paid in any way for his questionable ability to perform wedding ceremonies.

Wedding Cruises Wedding Cruise Packages Destination Weddings Carnival Cruise Lines

From your link:

Ceremony performed by a wedding officiant (non-denominational official/minister or notary public)

 

[Seawytch]

averagebear, like many average field grade officers, misjudge their understanding of issues beyond their training and experience. He does so with this issue.[/QUOTE

I am pro gay marriage Jake. I merely point out that they have an agenda, and forcing churches to marry them is on that agenda.

On that note, why the hell are churches exempt from SOME laws? I mean that is ridiculous. If the separation of church and state that allegedly was meant to exist in this country allows churches to be exempt from SOME laws, then they should be exempt from ALL laws because let's say for instance a Church that believes in killing non believers should be exempt from laws against murder . Oh , people have a right to not be murdered you say? Well, allegedly people have a right to force businesses to do business with them to, how are Churches exempt from those laws?

And I believe that is EXACTLY the route faggots are going to take , and they will be legally correct. The government IS picking and choosing religions when they say "okay if you don't believe in gay marriage you don't have to perform gay marriages" to one religion while telling another religion " oh you believe murder is acceptable? Too fucking bad" to another religion.


and churches ARE businesses

Mega churches mean big business - CNN.com

Churches are exempt from some laws, because they are "private" organizations, and because they are protected by the 1st Amendment. The constitution is VERY CLEAR regarding the protections afforded to religion in this country.

Liberty does not mean the liberty to KILL people.

Churches are not exempt from public accommodation laws. If a church puts up a table selling pumpkins at the local farmers market, they can't discriminate who they sell to.

The religious ceremonies held in a church are not for sale to the public.

You're not looking at it clearly.

We agree, not being murdered is a right. Legally at least public accommodations are a right.

How can a church be exempt from not violating one right, but not the other? If Church A sues and says "hey if Church B gets to ignore rights that violate their beliefs, why can't we?" How would they be wrong?

And dude, this took me two minutes to find

Wedding Ceremonies - All Souls Church

That church is CLEARLY offering church weddings to the public. I mean that isn't even at question is it?

Once again, MANY churches are BUSINESSES and thus how are they exempt from public accommodation laws? Answer, they won't be when some fag sues.

Your belief that it won't happen is naive at best.

All Souls is a lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender affirming Welcoming Congregation whose ministers have proudly performed same-gender weddings for decades.

 

[WorldWatcher]

This is of course true. But the point remains, people sue over silly shit today that no court would have entertained 20 years ago, and as silly lawsuits become the norm , pressure will be put on the courts to rule in favor of the "injured" party. Especially given the overall anger towards Christians in this country lately.

Don't tell me you can't see the very real possibility of some stupid ass circuit court ruling in favor of a gay. Sure , as of right NOW SCOTUS would overturn, but will they in 10 years? I'm doubtful as we slide further and further into the abyss of stupidity where people don't understand that their rights end where another person's begin.

As I said, 10 years ago, if you had suggested a Christian baker would be ordered by a court to bake a cake for a wedding you would have A) Scoffed at the idea of a gay suing over such a thing rather than just going to a different baker and B) said that there was no way a court would even entertain the case let alone found in the fags favor.

I've honestly never seen 3% of the population cause so much angst and turmoil. They should be embarrassed, I'm embarrassed for them. as they prove time and time again that they are not just wanting EQUALITY. They want to force their lifestyle on everyone.

No I can't see courts forcing a church to join two gays in holy matrimony against the church's will. I think you are sort of missing the point behind the religious ceremony. Maybe mixing it up with the govco marriage license thing. They could sue a ships captn. to marry them on a ship... but that's not necessarily a religious marriage ceremony. Marriage does not equal religious ceremony.

I don't think they could even sue a ship's captain. They could sue a city clerk or someone who performs civil ceremonies as an integral part of their job like a JOP, but even a ship's captain would be a stretch of a lawsuit will little to no chance of winning.

Pray tell why you believe a ship's captain would be exempt.

Because it is not a requirement of their job. He is not paid in any way for his questionable ability to perform wedding ceremonies.

Wedding Cruises Wedding Cruise Packages Destination Weddings Carnival Cruise Lines

From your link. (Click on the learn more link, it's in the PDF). The are performed in port and not by the Captain.

"All ceremonies are performed in port before the ship sails."

"Will my ceremony be performed by the Captain?
All wedding ceremonies are performed by a local Officiant provided by the wedding vendor."​

http://www.carnival.com/~/media/CCLUS/Images/pdf/Weddingspricelistpdf.ashx


>>>>>

 

[Seawytch]

averagebear, like many average field grade officers, misjudge their understanding of issues beyond their training and experience. He does so with this issue.[/QUOTE

I am pro gay marriage Jake. I merely point out that they have an agenda, and forcing churches to marry them is on that agenda.

On that note, why the hell are churches exempt from SOME laws? I mean that is ridiculous. If the separation of church and state that allegedly was meant to exist in this country allows churches to be exempt from SOME laws, then they should be exempt from ALL laws because let's say for instance a Church that believes in killing non believers should be exempt from laws against murder . Oh , people have a right to not be murdered you say? Well, allegedly people have a right to force businesses to do business with them to, how are Churches exempt from those laws?

And I believe that is EXACTLY the route faggots are going to take , and they will be legally correct. The government IS picking and choosing religions when they say "okay if you don't believe in gay marriage you don't have to perform gay marriages" to one religion while telling another religion " oh you believe murder is acceptable? Too fucking bad" to another religion.


and churches ARE businesses

Mega churches mean big business - CNN.com

Churches are exempt from some laws, because they are "private" organizations, and because they are protected by the 1st Amendment. The constitution is VERY CLEAR regarding the protections afforded to religion in this country.

Liberty does not mean the liberty to KILL people.

Churches are not exempt from public accommodation laws. If a church puts up a table selling pumpkins at the local farmers market, they can't discriminate who they sell to.

The religious ceremonies held in a church are not for sale to the public.

Which is exactly what led to the case the bigots like to bring up as "proof" that churches will be sued. A church had an agreement to rent out part of their property to the public. They were, therefore, subject to business laws including (but not limited to) Public Accommodation.

which leads to what you REALLY want. forcing churches to allow gays to get married in their churches.

So you can point out where the Public Accommodation laws that have been in place since the 60s have led to churches being forced to perform interracial or interfaith weddings.

You're right though, I do want churches to be "forced" into being more inclusive...through public opinion just like they ALWAYS have.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Pray tell why you believe a ship's captain would be exempt.

I'd take that bet, especially for a cruise ship where the ship advertises weddings may be performed by the captain for the price of a ticket.

What You Need to Know to Get Married at Sea
The Straight Dope Are ships captains allowed to marry people at sea
Can Boat Captains Really Marry People Mental Floss



>>>>

My wife's a Notary Public, it's not hard to become one.

Didn't say it was hard to become a Notary. That wasn't the question.

A Captain can't perform a Civil Marriage just by virtue of being a ship's Captain. If a Captain is a Notary, then your wife could perform a Civil Marriage because she's a notary, not because she's a ship's Captain. A Captain that is a retired Judge can perform a Civil Marriage also, but not because (s)he's a Captain.



>>>>

Ship's captains don't perform weddings at all. That's a myth. The actual ceremony is conducted by a licensed person, and by federal law, any weddings performed aboard, MUST be performed while the ship is docked and the prevailing laws of whichever jurisdiction the ship is docked in apply. Which means you must have all legal paperwork etc etc from that jurisdiction and be approved.....

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

averagebear, like many average field grade officers, misjudge their understanding of issues beyond their training and experience. He does so with this issue.[/QUOTE

I am pro gay marriage Jake. I merely point out that they have an agenda, and forcing churches to marry them is on that agenda.

On that note, why the hell are churches exempt from SOME laws? I mean that is ridiculous. If the separation of church and state that allegedly was meant to exist in this country allows churches to be exempt from SOME laws, then they should be exempt from ALL laws because let's say for instance a Church that believes in killing non believers should be exempt from laws against murder . Oh , people have a right to not be murdered you say? Well, allegedly people have a right to force businesses to do business with them to, how are Churches exempt from those laws?

And I believe that is EXACTLY the route faggots are going to take , and they will be legally correct. The government IS picking and choosing religions when they say "okay if you don't believe in gay marriage you don't have to perform gay marriages" to one religion while telling another religion " oh you believe murder is acceptable? Too fucking bad" to another religion.


and churches ARE businesses

Mega churches mean big business - CNN.com

Churches are exempt from some laws, because they are "private" organizations, and because they are protected by the 1st Amendment. The constitution is VERY CLEAR regarding the protections afforded to religion in this country.

Liberty does not mean the liberty to KILL people.

Churches are not exempt from public accommodation laws. If a church puts up a table selling pumpkins at the local farmers market, they can't discriminate who they sell to.

The religious ceremonies held in a church are not for sale to the public.

Which is exactly what led to the case the bigots like to bring up as "proof" that churches will be sued. A church had an agreement to rent out part of their property to the public. They were, therefore, subject to business laws including (but not limited to) Public Accommodation.

which leads to what you REALLY want. forcing churches to allow gays to get married in their churches.

So you can point out where the Public Accommodation laws that have been in place since the 60s have led to churches being forced to perform interracial or interfaith weddings.

You're right though, I do want churches to be "forced" into being more inclusive...through public opinion just like they ALWAYS have.

Why do you want to force anyone to include you? Do you have any idea how childish that is? Are you so immature that you can't just leave people who disagree with your lifestyle alone? I'm quite sure you don't want Christians trying to force you to be a Christian.

 

[Skylar]

How can a church be exempt from not violating one right, but not the other? If Church A sues and says "hey if Church B gets to ignore rights that violate their beliefs, why can't we?" How would they be wrong?

Do you have any examples of this? Race has a much stronger pedigree of protection, so the bar should be low. Can you cite examples of churches being forced to perform interracial marriages they didn't want to perform?

 

[Seawytch]

I am pro gay marriage Jake. I merely point out that they have an agenda, and forcing churches to marry them is on that agenda.

On that note, why the hell are churches exempt from SOME laws? I mean that is ridiculous. If the separation of church and state that allegedly was meant to exist in this country allows churches to be exempt from SOME laws, then they should be exempt from ALL laws because let's say for instance a Church that believes in killing non believers should be exempt from laws against murder . Oh , people have a right to not be murdered you say? Well, allegedly people have a right to force businesses to do business with them to, how are Churches exempt from those laws?

And I believe that is EXACTLY the route faggots are going to take , and they will be legally correct. The government IS picking and choosing religions when they say "okay if you don't believe in gay marriage you don't have to perform gay marriages" to one religion while telling another religion " oh you believe murder is acceptable? Too fucking bad" to another religion.


and churches ARE businesses

Mega churches mean big business - CNN.com

Churches are exempt from some laws, because they are "private" organizations, and because they are protected by the 1st Amendment. The constitution is VERY CLEAR regarding the protections afforded to religion in this country.

Liberty does not mean the liberty to KILL people.

Churches are not exempt from public accommodation laws. If a church puts up a table selling pumpkins at the local farmers market, they can't discriminate who they sell to.

The religious ceremonies held in a church are not for sale to the public.

Which is exactly what led to the case the bigots like to bring up as "proof" that churches will be sued. A church had an agreement to rent out part of their property to the public. They were, therefore, subject to business laws including (but not limited to) Public Accommodation.

which leads to what you REALLY want. forcing churches to allow gays to get married in their churches.

So you can point out where the Public Accommodation laws that have been in place since the 60s have led to churches being forced to perform interracial or interfaith weddings.

You're right though, I do want churches to be "forced" into being more inclusive...through public opinion just like they ALWAYS have.

Why do you want to force anyone to include you? Do you have any idea how childish that is? Are you so immature that you can't just leave people who disagree with your lifestyle alone? I'm quite sure you don't want Christians trying to force you to be a Christian.

Did you see the quotations around "force". Weren't the Mormons "forced" into accepting blacks into their church and then into positions of authority? Why, yes, yes they were. Not by the government though, but by the rest of the country that thought they were assholes about it.

Guess what young folks think about churches these days?

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Churches are exempt from some laws, because they are "private" organizations, and because they are protected by the 1st Amendment. The constitution is VERY CLEAR regarding the protections afforded to religion in this country.

Liberty does not mean the liberty to KILL people.

Churches are not exempt from public accommodation laws. If a church puts up a table selling pumpkins at the local farmers market, they can't discriminate who they sell to.

The religious ceremonies held in a church are not for sale to the public.

Which is exactly what led to the case the bigots like to bring up as "proof" that churches will be sued. A church had an agreement to rent out part of their property to the public. They were, therefore, subject to business laws including (but not limited to) Public Accommodation.

which leads to what you REALLY want. forcing churches to allow gays to get married in their churches.

So you can point out where the Public Accommodation laws that have been in place since the 60s have led to churches being forced to perform interracial or interfaith weddings.

You're right though, I do want churches to be "forced" into being more inclusive...through public opinion just like they ALWAYS have.

Why do you want to force anyone to include you? Do you have any idea how childish that is? Are you so immature that you can't just leave people who disagree with your lifestyle alone? I'm quite sure you don't want Christians trying to force you to be a Christian.

Did you see the quotations around "force". Weren't the Mormons "forced" into accepting blacks into their church and then into positions of authority? Why, yes, yes they were. Not by the government though, but by the rest of the country that thought they were assholes about it.

Guess what young folks think about churches these days?

Who cares what young folks think?

About anything

Not a church that has integrity. I realize you have none and so don't understand when others do, but I don't change my stances on issues based on how popular I am or how old fashioned my views seem, and only a jerk thinks other people should have to.

Here's a fucking idea. You mind your own business , I'll mind mine. You want to "marry" another woman, go ahead, but don't be fucking trying to tell me or mine that we're wrong for not agreeing with you.

The stupid part is that you are too stupid to uphold your part of the bargain while insisting that others leave you alone...

Either that, or you PURPOSELY want to tell others what to do, nah that couldn't be it...

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

How can a church be exempt from not violating one right, but not the other? If Church A sues and says "hey if Church B gets to ignore rights that violate their beliefs, why can't we?" How would they be wrong?

Do you have any examples of this? Race has a much stronger pedigree of protection, so the bar should be low. Can you cite examples of churches being forced to perform interracial marriages they didn't want to perform?

We're not talking about just marriage sir. We're talking about laws in general which disagree with religion.

Here's another example. Sharia law. could a Muslim church impose Sharia law upon it's members? Of course not because the first time a woman got beat for showing some wrist skin whomever did it would be in jail, and rightfully so; but legally speaking how is assaulting another person any worse a violation of their rights than denying doing business with them in accordance with Public Accommodation laws? Answer, it's not.

You have a lesbian right in this thread who is admitting that she would like to force churches to marry gays. Now she's attempting to couch it in terms of "force through public pressure" but anyone who is honest sees right through that bullshit. She would love NOTHING more than to legally force Christian churches to marry gays. That's as obvious as Barbara Streisand's nose.

 

[RKMBrown]

averagebear, like many average field grade officers, misjudge their understanding of issues beyond their training and experience. He does so with this issue.[/QUOTE

I am pro gay marriage Jake. I merely point out that they have an agenda, and forcing churches to marry them is on that agenda.

On that note, why the hell are churches exempt from SOME laws? I mean that is ridiculous. If the separation of church and state that allegedly was meant to exist in this country allows churches to be exempt from SOME laws, then they should be exempt from ALL laws because let's say for instance a Church that believes in killing non believers should be exempt from laws against murder . Oh , people have a right to not be murdered you say? Well, allegedly people have a right to force businesses to do business with them to, how are Churches exempt from those laws?

And I believe that is EXACTLY the route faggots are going to take , and they will be legally correct. The government IS picking and choosing religions when they say "okay if you don't believe in gay marriage you don't have to perform gay marriages" to one religion while telling another religion " oh you believe murder is acceptable? Too fucking bad" to another religion.


and churches ARE businesses

Mega churches mean big business - CNN.com

Churches are exempt from some laws, because they are "private" organizations, and because they are protected by the 1st Amendment. The constitution is VERY CLEAR regarding the protections afforded to religion in this country.

Liberty does not mean the liberty to KILL people.

Churches are not exempt from public accommodation laws. If a church puts up a table selling pumpkins at the local farmers market, they can't discriminate who they sell to.

The religious ceremonies held in a church are not for sale to the public.

You're not looking at it clearly.

We agree, not being murdered is a right. Legally at least public accommodations are a right.

How can a church be exempt from not violating one right, but not the other? If Church A sues and says "hey if Church B gets to ignore rights that violate their beliefs, why can't we?" How would they be wrong?

And dude, this took me two minutes to find

Wedding Ceremonies - All Souls Church

That church is CLEARLY offering church weddings to the public. I mean that isn't even at question is it?

Once again, MANY churches are BUSINESSES and thus how are they exempt from public accommodation laws? Answer, they won't be when some fag sues.

Your belief that it won't happen is naive at best.

You asked, "If Church A sues and says hey if Church B gets to ignore rights that violate their beliefs, why can't we? How would they be wrong?"

The simple answer is you are correct. Church B would not be wrong. There are a number of situations ATM where some members of some religions have won certain exemptions from the law that other members of other religions are subject to. Mormons come to mind.

I'd have to look into the "public" thing for that particular church more carefully. Are they a real church or a wedding outlet like the ones at vegas. If they have to be a member of or join the church to get married.. then it's private. That church you linked me to... yeah it's a church explicitly for gays and lesbians.

I never said dumb asses won't sue. My point is they won't stand a chance at this one. Forcing the catholic church to marry gays against their will.. yeah not gonna happen. If they want to do it, then it will happen, otherwise... nah not even a small chance. I'll give you 100 to 1 odds that the catholic and protestant churches will not be forced to marry gays in our lifetime.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

averagebear, like many average field grade officers, misjudge their understanding of issues beyond their training and experience. He does so with this issue.[/QUOTE

I am pro gay marriage Jake. I merely point out that they have an agenda, and forcing churches to marry them is on that agenda.

On that note, why the hell are churches exempt from SOME laws? I mean that is ridiculous. If the separation of church and state that allegedly was meant to exist in this country allows churches to be exempt from SOME laws, then they should be exempt from ALL laws because let's say for instance a Church that believes in killing non believers should be exempt from laws against murder . Oh , people have a right to not be murdered you say? Well, allegedly people have a right to force businesses to do business with them to, how are Churches exempt from those laws?

And I believe that is EXACTLY the route faggots are going to take , and they will be legally correct. The government IS picking and choosing religions when they say "okay if you don't believe in gay marriage you don't have to perform gay marriages" to one religion while telling another religion " oh you believe murder is acceptable? Too fucking bad" to another religion.


and churches ARE businesses

Mega churches mean big business - CNN.com

Churches are exempt from some laws, because they are "private" organizations, and because they are protected by the 1st Amendment. The constitution is VERY CLEAR regarding the protections afforded to religion in this country.

Liberty does not mean the liberty to KILL people.

Churches are not exempt from public accommodation laws. If a church puts up a table selling pumpkins at the local farmers market, they can't discriminate who they sell to.

The religious ceremonies held in a church are not for sale to the public.

You're not looking at it clearly.

We agree, not being murdered is a right. Legally at least public accommodations are a right.

How can a church be exempt from not violating one right, but not the other? If Church A sues and says "hey if Church B gets to ignore rights that violate their beliefs, why can't we?" How would they be wrong?

And dude, this took me two minutes to find

Wedding Ceremonies - All Souls Church

That church is CLEARLY offering church weddings to the public. I mean that isn't even at question is it?

Once again, MANY churches are BUSINESSES and thus how are they exempt from public accommodation laws? Answer, they won't be when some fag sues.

Your belief that it won't happen is naive at best.

You asked, "If Church A sues and says hey if Church B gets to ignore rights that violate their beliefs, why can't we? How would they be wrong?"

The simple answer is you are correct. Church B would not be wrong. There are a number of situations ATM where some members of some religions have won certain exemptions from the law that other members of other religions are subject to. Mormons come to mind.

I'd have to look into the "public" thing for that particular church more carefully. Are they a real church or a wedding outlet like the ones at vegas. If they have to be a member of or join the church to get married.. then it's private. My internet is going down every 30sec. I can't do shit on the net right now. Will look into that church in the morning.

I never said dumb asses won't sue. My point is they won't stand a chance at this one. Forcing the catholic church to marry gays against their will.. yeah not gonna happen. If they want to do it, then it will happen, otherwise... nah not even a small chance. I'll give you 100 to 1 odds that the catholic and protestant churches will not be forced to marry gays in our lifetime.

I wouldn't take your bet, But to pretend like gays wouldn't LOVE to force them to by law is foolish. SeaBitch has admitted she'd love to force churches to comply.

 

[Seawytch]

Which is exactly what led to the case the bigots like to bring up as "proof" that churches will be sued. A church had an agreement to rent out part of their property to the public. They were, therefore, subject to business laws including (but not limited to) Public Accommodation.

which leads to what you REALLY want. forcing churches to allow gays to get married in their churches.

So you can point out where the Public Accommodation laws that have been in place since the 60s have led to churches being forced to perform interracial or interfaith weddings.

You're right though, I do want churches to be "forced" into being more inclusive...through public opinion just like they ALWAYS have.

Why do you want to force anyone to include you? Do you have any idea how childish that is? Are you so immature that you can't just leave people who disagree with your lifestyle alone? I'm quite sure you don't want Christians trying to force you to be a Christian.

Did you see the quotations around "force". Weren't the Mormons "forced" into accepting blacks into their church and then into positions of authority? Why, yes, yes they were. Not by the government though, but by the rest of the country that thought they were assholes about it.

Guess what young folks think about churches these days?

Who cares what young folks think?

About anything

Not a church that has integrity. I realize you have none and so don't understand when others do, but I don't change my stances on issues based on how popular I am or how old fashioned my views seem, and only a jerk thinks other people should have to.

Here's a fucking idea. You mind your own business , I'll mind mine. You want to "marry" another woman, go ahead, but don't be fucking trying to tell me or mine that we're wrong for not agreeing with you.

The stupid part is that you are too stupid to uphold your part of the bargain while insisting that others leave you alone...

Either that, or you PURPOSELY want to tell others what to do, nah that couldn't be it...

Churches will that's who. When the old bigots die off...the church is still going to need money, honey.

Churches need butts in the seats to survive. That's not rocket surgery.

Hmmmm, no comment on the Mormons? Should they have "stuck to their guns" or do you agree with them falling to public pressure?

It's not us that will be "forcing" churches to change, darling, it will be our family members that want to worship with us. (Watch and see...history repeats)

 

[Seawytch]

averagebear, like many average field grade officers, misjudge their understanding of issues beyond their training and experience. He does so with this issue.[/QUOTE

I am pro gay marriage Jake. I merely point out that they have an agenda, and forcing churches to marry them is on that agenda.

On that note, why the hell are churches exempt from SOME laws? I mean that is ridiculous. If the separation of church and state that allegedly was meant to exist in this country allows churches to be exempt from SOME laws, then they should be exempt from ALL laws because let's say for instance a Church that believes in killing non believers should be exempt from laws against murder . Oh , people have a right to not be murdered you say? Well, allegedly people have a right to force businesses to do business with them to, how are Churches exempt from those laws?

And I believe that is EXACTLY the route faggots are going to take , and they will be legally correct. The government IS picking and choosing religions when they say "okay if you don't believe in gay marriage you don't have to perform gay marriages" to one religion while telling another religion " oh you believe murder is acceptable? Too fucking bad" to another religion.


and churches ARE businesses

Mega churches mean big business - CNN.com

Churches are exempt from some laws, because they are "private" organizations, and because they are protected by the 1st Amendment. The constitution is VERY CLEAR regarding the protections afforded to religion in this country.

Liberty does not mean the liberty to KILL people.

Churches are not exempt from public accommodation laws. If a church puts up a table selling pumpkins at the local farmers market, they can't discriminate who they sell to.

The religious ceremonies held in a church are not for sale to the public.

You're not looking at it clearly.

We agree, not being murdered is a right. Legally at least public accommodations are a right.

How can a church be exempt from not violating one right, but not the other? If Church A sues and says "hey if Church B gets to ignore rights that violate their beliefs, why can't we?" How would they be wrong?

And dude, this took me two minutes to find

Wedding Ceremonies - All Souls Church

That church is CLEARLY offering church weddings to the public. I mean that isn't even at question is it?

Once again, MANY churches are BUSINESSES and thus how are they exempt from public accommodation laws? Answer, they won't be when some fag sues.

Your belief that it won't happen is naive at best.

You asked, "If Church A sues and says hey if Church B gets to ignore rights that violate their beliefs, why can't we? How would they be wrong?"

The simple answer is you are correct. Church B would not be wrong. There are a number of situations ATM where some members of some religions have won certain exemptions from the law that other members of other religions are subject to. Mormons come to mind.

I'd have to look into the "public" thing for that particular church more carefully. Are they a real church or a wedding outlet like the ones at vegas. If they have to be a member of or join the church to get married.. then it's private. My internet is going down every 30sec. I can't do shit on the net right now. Will look into that church in the morning.

I never said dumb asses won't sue. My point is they won't stand a chance at this one. Forcing the catholic church to marry gays against their will.. yeah not gonna happen. If they want to do it, then it will happen, otherwise... nah not even a small chance. I'll give you 100 to 1 odds that the catholic and protestant churches will not be forced to marry gays in our lifetime.

I wouldn't take your bet, But to pretend like gays wouldn't LOVE to force them to by law is foolish. SeaBitch has admitted she'd love to force churches to comply.

Not by law douchnozzle, by public opinion just like they ALWAYS have.

But you're cute when you lie.