Should Churches be forced to accomodate for homosexual weddings?

[Gadawg73]

That you do not know the difference between your use of the word "churches" and my use of the phrase "the Church" just illustrates that you're too busy self-righteously demonizing those who disagree with you to bother educating yourself about them and understanding them.

Ignorance is never a winning strategy, which is why tyrannical fucktards like you disappear onto the ashheap of history and the Church continues on.

That you decide to be a nasty twat and not actually address any of the points I made, leads me to believe I hit the nail on the head.

Even "the Church" won't be able to survive on just 3rd world money...it will need money from places like the US that thinks gays should be treated equally and they want their gay loved ones to worship alongside them.

Among Americans who left their childhood religion and are now religiously unaffiliated, about one-quarter say negative teachings about or treatment of gay and lesbian people was a somewhat important (14%) or very important (10%) factor in their decision to disaffiliate. Among Millennials who no longer identify with their childhood religion, nearly one-third say that negative teachings about, or treatment of, gay and lesbian people was either a somewhat important (17%) or very important (14%) factor in their disaffiliation from religion.​

A Decade of Change in American Attitudes about Same-Sex Marriage and LGBT Issues

Here's an opinion from a Millennial:

What millennials really want from the church is not a change in style but a change in substance.

We want an end to the culture wars. We want a truce between science and faith. We want to be known for what we stand for, not what we are against.

We want to ask questions that don’t have predetermined answers.

We want churches that emphasize an allegiance to the kingdom of God over an allegiance to a single political party or a single nation.

We want our LGBT friends to feel truly welcome in our faith communities.

We want to be challenged to live lives of holiness, not only when it comes to sex, but also when it comes to living simply, caring for the poor and oppressed, pursuing reconciliation, engaging in creation care and becoming peacemakers.

You can’t hand us a latte and then go about business as usual and expect us to stick around. We’re not leaving the church because we don’t find the cool factor there; we’re leaving the church because we don’t find Jesus there.​

This is why His Holiness, Pope Frankie has been modifying the Church's position regarding gays. The part of the world with all the cash, doesn't hate the gays so much.

you left muslim, hindu, shinto, buddist, and several others off your chart.

"pope frankie" come on wytch. thats below even you.

Buddhist have no issues with gay marriage.

 

[Gadawg73]

Yes, some will find faiths that accept all as children of God(.)

OK, here is where your ignorance of the Bible and Jesus' teachings becomes glaringly apparent. Jesus taught that all men are God's children. But he in no way shape or form taught that what all men DO is sanctioned or approved of by God.

And herein lies the danger of allowing youthful idiots access to redaction tools for the 1,000's year old christian faith.

I offer Jude 1 as an example. Jude travelled everywhere with Jesus and heard his teachings first hand on an almost daily basis. The message below says in a nutshell "love your bretheren when they are foul, but in no way encourage their foulness. Because if you do, you're going to the pit with them". In other words, there are certain behaviors that God forbids to spread in a culture as "norms". One of them happens to be homosexuality. Because even way way back then, it's uncanny how closely the tactics of "smooth speech" and "complaining" the gays did to try to normalize what they did in Sodom. And we can see where it got that civilization. Everyone went to the Pit. Even those that just ignored God's words and weren't gay themselves. Even if they just enabled the LGBT takeover in their town, they went down...

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Basically this direct, non-nonsense commmandment and warning of punishment for the mortal sin of enabling homosexuality says at its end "do whatever it takes, but drag them away from their insanity...save them....save them with compassion and/or fear". And "earnestly contend" for this to happen. If you don't you're going to the Pit with them.


The very fact that homosexuals are trying to change that is what it warns in the very body of its own text. [See underlined text in Jude 1 above] Their smooth speeches are at this instant as I type this trying to dethrone the christian faith precisely because they've read Jude 1 and are "complaining it isn't fair". God isn't fair and doesn't give these commandments lightly. Religion isn't always about touchy-feeling feel good stuff. It's about keeping your head between the fence posts. It's about discipline with compassion. Never one without the other..

Lead attorney pro bono in the California case lead that charge.
And he is a straight conservative Republican.
Something about The Constitution, not gays and straight folk.
It is over, gayfolks are getting married.
And nothing will change in your or my life, ever.

 

[Silhouette]

Buddhist have no issues with gay marriage.

That's not saying much. Buddhists have no issues with ANYTHING. The point of religion is not just touchy-feely apathy. It's also discipline. Men need discipline and this is why religion exists in the first place; a guide, not just a suggestion.

There may be a scant few enlightened people sprinkled here and there on the earth. But the herd mentality of homo sapiens and his penchant for getting up to all sorts of mayhem and monkey business means that for the masses in general, a disciplinary schematic had to be handed down...and enforced...

Lead attorney pro bono in the California case lead that charge.
And he is a straight conservative Republican.
Something about The Constitution, not gays and straight folk.
It is over, gayfolks are getting married.
And nothing will change in your or my life, ever.

I wasn't saying that attorney did a good job. The question here isn't gay marriage. It's whether or not that cult can force christians to perform it. Your attorney may think they are one and the same: but they are not. You cannot allow a group of minority behaviors to tell recognized religions to perform heresy to their faith. You cannot allow one group of citizens to force another to abdicate their religion in violation of the 1st Amendment. I don't envy the Supreme Court on this one. They literally are going to be choosing between the Devil and God. When you render it down, that is PRECISELY what's going on here..

 

[Andylusion]

Churches and religious institutions should be taxed as any other business unless they can prove what money they used to help in charity . Then we can say there is separation of church and state.

When people donate to religious groups, it's tax-deductible. Churches don't pay property taxes on their land or buildings. When they buy stuff, they don't pay sales taxes. When they sell stuff at a profit, they don't pay capital gains tax. If they spend less than they take in, they don't pay corporate income taxes. Priests, ministers, rabbis and Imams get "parsonage exemptions" that let them deduct mortgage payments, rent and other living expenses when they're doing their income taxes. They also are the only group allowed to opt out of Social Security taxes . The estimate is a total subsidy at $71 billion year.

Tell me you did not just suggest that allowing people to pay less tax, is us "subsidizing" them?

Often when examining a complex problem it's much easier to break it down into a simplified model to show how a system works.

Baseline:
1. Let's say there is a community that consist of 10 buildings.
2. 9 Buildings are owned by individuals and 1 Building is owned by a religious organization.
3. The community provides roads, police and fire to each building which costs $10,000 per year or $1,000 per building. (Don't nit-pic the numbers which are chosen to provide the scenario's, look at the flow of logic instead.)


Scenario #1:
Individuals owning the buildings use the roads provided by the community, in the event of a crime each can call for police assistance, and in the event of a fire each can call the Fire Department. Each of the 10 buildings is taxed at a rate of $1,000 per year to reach the required $10,000 to bay the community bill.

Scenario #2:
Individuals owning the buildings use the roads provided by the community, in the event of a crime each can call for police assistance, and in the event of a fire each can call the Fire Department. The bill of $10,000 per year for the community remains the same, however the religious organization is tax exempt - they do not pay the $1,000 to support the services to which they have access. Therefore the $10,000 bill is not divided amongst the 10 using the services, instead it is divided between remaining 9 meaning they pay $1111.11 per year.

Conclusion:
It it logically consistent to point out that under #1 there is no "subsidy" since each is paying an equal share for the services rendered. It is also logically consistent to point out that under #2 the one tax exempt entity is being subsidized by the other 9 since they enjoy the same services yet do not pay the taxes that support the services.

*************************

NOTE: The above is an examination of logic and does not indicate whether I think religious organizations or other tax exempt entities should receive tax breaks on baseline taxes (property & sales) or revenue taxes (income & profit from sales).

>>>>

I don't completely disagree, but I was looking at it from a more fundamental level. Subsidy is money given to someone. Ethanol producers actually get a real life subsidy. They get an actual check from the government, of money stolen from tax payers.

If you consider a deduction, or a reduction is taxes collected, to be a subsidy..... then.... EVERYONE is subsidized. I don't know anyone that is paying the absolute full amount of taxes they owe according to the tax tables.

I have deductions. I make $20,000 a year. I get many deductions. Apparently despite getting a tax bill of over $700, over the several thousand they stole from my check throughout the year.... apparently I'm being 'subsidized' by ya'll. Wish ya'll would subsidize me a bit more.

But let me back up to the body of your argument. Your claim is that if someone pays less tax, then someone would have to pay more tax, to cover the expenses.

Is that true? I would argue it is not. Another way to look at it, is if a business moves in and starts paying property taxes, do taxes lower for the rest of the public? Of course not. Never happens.

My church was built on an empty plot of farm land, which was paying very little in property taxes before hand.

The road in front of the church was already built. If the church had never existed, that street would still have been there, still be paved, still be maintained. The difference in cost to the city, and therefore the tax payers, is completely unchanged.

What is changed is that the church has several full time employees, which pay city taxes on their income, and property taxes on their residences.

I happen to have my property tax statement right here in front of me.

Tax distribution, is as follows.... (not in any particular order)

Children Services
Parks
Zoos
Schools

All of those involve children. Churches do not use those services. Families create that cost, and families are paying property taxes for it.

Senior programs
Library
Rehab programs
Disability programs

Church not only don't use those services, but often provide those services themselves. My church has hired people with disability, which reduces the cost on society, not increases it. We have programs for Seniors, and we have a library of sorts (yes I know, it's religious in nature), and we have in times past paid for people in our church to go through rehab, which again reduces the cost of that service on society.

To put that in perspective, out of my total property tax bill, less than 4% of my bill goes to roads, police, fire, and public services.

So my argument is this. Churches create very very little cost on society, and provide many many benefits. People choose not to use those benefits by choosing not to go to church, but that reflects on them, not the church.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

The First Amendment forbids public law from forcing anything on religious institutions, just as it forbids religious institutions from imposing their will on the public.

So churches should have the right to discriminate against homosexuals?

How about against racial minorities as well?

Oh good grief.. not this stupid shit again.

 

[Andylusion]

Yes, churches do have a history of changing due to public opinion...interracial marriage is a prime example. What church is "The Church"...The Catholic Church? Even this new Pope is less, shall we say, "antagonistic" than previous Pontiffs when it comes to "the gheys".

Here in the good old U S of A, Catholics are among the strongest supporters of marriage equality. The evangelicals are bringing up the rear...again. I imagine they were among the last to let "those people" {the blacks} into their churches too.

In the end, churches need butts in the seats. Old crusty anti gay attitudes are dying off...and if their kids won't go to church because they're nasty and bigoted,the church will go out of "business".

That you do not know the difference between your use of the word "churches" and my use of the phrase "the Church" just illustrates that you're too busy self-righteously demonizing those who disagree with you to bother educating yourself about them and understanding them.

Ignorance is never a winning strategy, which is why tyrannical fucktards like you disappear onto the ashheap of history and the Church continues on.

That you decide to be a nasty twat and not actually address any of the points I made, leads me to believe I hit the nail on the head.

Even "the Church" won't be able to survive on just 3rd world money...it will need money from places like the US that thinks gays should be treated equally and they want their gay loved ones to worship alongside them.

Among Americans who left their childhood religion and are now religiously unaffiliated, about one-quarter say negative teachings about or treatment of gay and lesbian people was a somewhat important (14%) or very important (10%) factor in their decision to disaffiliate. Among Millennials who no longer identify with their childhood religion, nearly one-third say that negative teachings about, or treatment of, gay and lesbian people was either a somewhat important (17%) or very important (14%) factor in their disaffiliation from religion.​

A Decade of Change in American Attitudes about Same-Sex Marriage and LGBT Issues

Here's an opinion from a Millennial:

What millennials really want from the church is not a change in style but a change in substance.

We want an end to the culture wars. We want a truce between science and faith. We want to be known for what we stand for, not what we are against.

We want to ask questions that don’t have predetermined answers.

We want churches that emphasize an allegiance to the kingdom of God over an allegiance to a single political party or a single nation.

We want our LGBT friends to feel truly welcome in our faith communities.

We want to be challenged to live lives of holiness, not only when it comes to sex, but also when it comes to living simply, caring for the poor and oppressed, pursuing reconciliation, engaging in creation care and becoming peacemakers.

You can’t hand us a latte and then go about business as usual and expect us to stick around. We’re not leaving the church because we don’t find the cool factor there; we’re leaving the church because we don’t find Jesus there.​

This is why His Holiness, Pope Frankie has been modifying the Church's position regarding gays. The part of the world with all the cash, doesn't hate the gays so much.

So what? Why would I care what the Pope does? Why would care what other people do?

Do you think I hold the views I do because of what is popular? I promise you, I do not. Never will.

Homosexuality is a sin. Period. Last I checked, G-d doesn't care about your opinion polls.

Have you never read Psalm 2?

Why do the nations rage, and the people plot in vain?
He who sits in the heavens laughs, the Lord holds them in derision.

Go read Psalms 2. You post all your opinion polls.... He who sits in the heavens..... LAUGHS.... LAUGHS!

That's what G-d thinks about all your opinion polls... and that's what I think about them.

We don't care about your opinion polls. Homosexuality is a sin. We won't accommodate it ever. Period.

 

[Kosh]

And still no matter how much the far left posts, "Marriage" is not a right!

 

[Redfish]

Pope Francis stated quite clearly: "Who am I to judge"? I agree with him(.) No, no house of worship should be forced to allow same gender marriage; it is to be hoped, as time passes, more & more will. Civil marriage must be for all of sound mind, legal age, and without ulterior motive.

Bingo. More and more people are "hoping" for their churches to be inclusive of their gay loved ones and fewer will attend the churches they don't find that inclusiveness in.

Yes, some will find faiths that accept all as children of God(.)

All Christian and Jewish churches accept all as children of God. That does not mean that God accepts the sins of all of his children.

You are mixing gay marriage with the basics of religious beliefs.

I don't personally know what God thinks about homosexuals, I suspect that he loves them as they are.

Gay marriage is a civil issue, not a religious issue. Civil issues of what is considered right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable, etc should be decided by a majority of the citizens of the city, state, or country. If the federal govt wants to have a referendum on gay marriage as part of a national election------I say go for it, do it. But be ready to accept the will of the people after the votes are counted.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

And still no matter how much the far left posts, "Marriage" is not a right!

I agree, however the courts do not, and Equal Before The Law is a right, which is what Marriage Equality is actually about.

 

[Lovebears65]

Churches should burn in Hell because religion is the single greatest lie in all of human history.

Do you include mosques in that sentiment?

All religions. Churches, mosques and synagogues. Anyone who thinks that there is an invisible man in the sky, but especially anyone who is willing to kill to prove just how much their invisible man in the sky loves us. You find them in every culture.

Christians, Muslims and Jews all pray to the One True Invisible Man in the Sky. They only kill each other over what name to call it. And they pollute and poison God's paradise called Earth because they think that they're going to be able to sit around in Never Never Land and play harps in outer space after they die.

Human adults need to grow up and stop having imaginary friends.

How can you prove 100 percent there is not a higher power?? You cant.. This is your opinion..

 

[Andylusion]

Churches should burn in Hell because religion is the single greatest lie in all of human history.

Do you include mosques in that sentiment?

All religions. Churches, mosques and synagogues. Anyone who thinks that there is an invisible man in the sky, but especially anyone who is willing to kill to prove just how much their invisible man in the sky loves us. You find them in every culture.

Christians, Muslims and Jews all pray to the One True Invisible Man in the Sky. They only kill each other over what name to call it. And they pollute and poison God's paradise called Earth because they think that they're going to be able to sit around in Never Never Land and play harps in outer space after they die.

Human adults need to grow up and stop having imaginary friends.

Just looking at Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.... there dozens of differences far beyond 'the name'.

And nothing else you've talked about is anything close to what my Bible says, and certainly isn't believed in either of the other two.

I think you really don't have any idea what you are talking about.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Do you include mosques in that sentiment?

All religions. Churches, mosques and synagogues. Anyone who thinks that there is an invisible man in the sky, but especially anyone who is willing to kill to prove just how much their invisible man in the sky loves us. You find them in every culture.

Christians, Muslims and Jews all pray to the One True Invisible Man in the Sky. They only kill each other over what name to call it. And they pollute and poison God's paradise called Earth because they think that they're going to be able to sit around in Never Never Land and play harps in outer space after they die.

Human adults need to grow up and stop having imaginary friends.

How can you prove 100 percent there is not a higher power?? You cant.. This is your opinion..

God cannot be proven either way...

 

[TooTall]

When the state seeks to impose its will upon the churches of the land, bloodshed is a heartbeat away.

No. In our country, the state does not have the authority to dictate what the church must *allow*.

So if churches should be allowed refuse to marry homosexuals couples, should they be allowed to refuse to marry mixed race couples if it goes against their doctrine?

Yes. And, they can refuse to marry you and your sister or your pet as well.

 

[Andylusion]

And still no matter how much the far left posts, "Marriage" is not a right!

I agree, however the courts do not, and Equal Before The Law is a right, which is what Marriage Equality is actually about.

If you find an old dictionary, before people started screwing with the words....

The definition of "marriage" is:

'a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife'

Husband.... and wife. Marriage has ALWAYS been defined as male and female.

You could have multiple females. But it was still between a man, and a woman.

Even in societies that were very open to homosexuality, you could have partners as such, but they were still not "married". They were partners, and had some level of legal standing, but they were not "married".

Marriage was between a man and woman. If there is such a example of any historical society where man and man, or woman and woman, could marry, I don't know of it.

So to that end, I would say to you that everyone is legally equal under the law. Everyone has the ability to marry a member of the opposite sex, just like everyone else.

Now if society wants to allow some sort of legal partnership.... I would be ok with that. I'd feel sad for the people who agreed to it, but let the pagans be pagans, in my book. If that's what they want, knock themselves out.

 

[Andylusion]

All religions. Churches, mosques and synagogues. Anyone who thinks that there is an invisible man in the sky, but especially anyone who is willing to kill to prove just how much their invisible man in the sky loves us. You find them in every culture.

Christians, Muslims and Jews all pray to the One True Invisible Man in the Sky. They only kill each other over what name to call it. And they pollute and poison God's paradise called Earth because they think that they're going to be able to sit around in Never Never Land and play harps in outer space after they die.

Human adults need to grow up and stop having imaginary friends.

How can you prove 100 percent there is not a higher power?? You cant.. This is your opinion..

God cannot be proven either way...

Which again, is our point. It's just opinion that he doesn't.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

How can you prove 100 percent there is not a higher power?? You cant.. This is your opinion..

God cannot be proven either way...

Which again, is our point. It's just opinion that he doesn't.

It's just opinion that he does. Now what?

 

[Kosh]

How can you prove 100 percent there is not a higher power?? You cant.. This is your opinion..

God cannot be proven either way...

Which again, is our point. It's just opinion that he doesn't.

Well that is not entirely true as God could very easily be proven to exist, but it would require those with open minds to understand it.

Being agnostic I believe that something more powerful than humans exists in this universe.

Some may call it god other may say that the universe itself has a conscience, but then again the person in question would have to be open minded. The far left on this board has proven that they are the most closed minded people on the planet.

 

[GISMYS]

God cannot be proven either way...

Which again, is our point. It's just opinion that he doesn't.

It's just opinion that he does. Now what?

GOD SAYS MAN HAS PROOF AND NO EXCUSE TO NOT KNOW GOD IS REAL!!!===For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it unto them.

20 For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

21 For when they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:18-21

 

[PaintMyHouse]

And still no matter how much the far left posts, "Marriage" is not a right!

I agree, however the courts do not, and Equal Before The Law is a right, which is what Marriage Equality is actually about.

If you find an old dictionary, before people started screwing with the words....

The definition of "marriage" is:

'a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife'

Husband.... and wife. Marriage has ALWAYS been defined as male and female.

You could have multiple females. But it was still between a man, and a woman.

Even in societies that were very open to homosexuality, you could have partners as such, but they were still not "married". They were partners, and had some level of legal standing, but they were not "married".

Marriage was between a man and woman. If there is such a example of any historical society where man and man, or woman and woman, could marry, I don't know of it.

So to that end, I would say to you that everyone is legally equal under the law. Everyone has the ability to marry a member of the opposite sex, just like everyone else.

Now if society wants to allow some sort of legal partnership.... I would be ok with that. I'd feel sad for the people who agreed to it, but let the pagans be pagans, in my book. If that's what they want, knock themselves out.

Marriage is a word. Equal Before The Law is a concept, an American value. Go with that.

And the tradition was to beat your wife but we're past that now, mostly, just as we should be past worrying about two gay people having the same legal standing in a secular nation as two straight people.

You are hung up on a word, a tradition, when there is a higher principle at stake, equality.

 

[Andylusion]

God cannot be proven either way...

Which again, is our point. It's just opinion that he doesn't.

It's just opinion that he does. Now what?

That depends on you. When people like you try telling us that you know for certain G-d does not exist, you are full of crap.

Now if you are ok being full of crap, off somewhere else doing whatever you pagans do.... that's fine with me.

But... if you want to tell me, or my church, that we have to accept homosexuality because your opinion is that our G-d does not exist......

With all due respect.... tough snot. Not going to happen.

Sucks to be you, too bad we can vote, eh?