Should Detroit's municipal retirees lose their pensions?

[Avatar4321]

They most likely will lose it all. And that happens in contracts all the time. People lose money they are promised in deals, because one party cannot pay the money promised. I've had some clients who couldn't pay their bills and it was more expensive to litigate the process than to just write it off as a loss.

You can sue people all you want for a breach of contract, but if they don't have the money, they don't have the money. Squeeze a rock all you want, you will never get juice.

 

[Ame®icano]

Oh okay....and you know this how? By all the blacks you know in Detroit? STFU ya racist mutt.

You're the racist since you support affirmative action which got detroit into this mess. They handed out all these govt jobs to unqualified blacks who can't even read so naturally the city has collapsed. think

On the contrary, being FROM Detroit, I know several dozen admirable blacks who are good, trustworthy, and look to themselves and their families. All Detroit blacks ask for is a way out of poverty, a way out of living in fear of the gangs you believe them all to be a part of, and back to where they were before LBJ ruined the city with his "urban renewal" that tore down their neighborhoods and closed their stores, and sent them into the projects where they owned nothing and were easy victims for the hoodlums amongst them. This is your problem....you've confused black people with POOR people. It sounds racist...hell, it is racist. Tell us, how are Detroit blacks supposed to rise out of their conditions without a JOB?

Detroit you're talking about is from 30 years ago when you left.
Detroit today is what you see on Hardcore Pawn.

 

[JoeBlam]

You're the racist since you support affirmative action which got detroit into this mess. They handed out all these govt jobs to unqualified blacks who can't even read so naturally the city has collapsed. think

On the contrary, being FROM Detroit, I know several dozen admirable blacks who are good, trustworthy, and look to themselves and their families. All Detroit blacks ask for is a way out of poverty, a way out of living in fear of the gangs you believe them all to be a part of, and back to where they were before LBJ ruined the city with his "urban renewal" that tore down their neighborhoods and closed their stores, and sent them into the projects where they owned nothing and were easy victims for the hoodlums amongst them. This is your problem....you've confused black people with POOR people. It sounds racist...hell, it is racist. Tell us, how are Detroit blacks supposed to rise out of their conditions without a JOB?

Detroit you're talking about is from 30 years ago when you left.
Detroit today is what you see on Hardcore Pawn.

I agree that I ain't run those streets since the early 70's....now answer my question.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

anybody can make cars today.....that's why outsourcing happens in any business.....they can be made easily and cheaper elsewhere....and the Japanese were certainly masters at it...

unless the factories create something brand new it is highly doubtful the auto business will ever go back to its glory days....

Detroit failed to encourage entrepreneurs and other businesses to succeed and therefore contracted just like the auto business instead of expanding new horizons...

You look at outsourcing like it's an inevitable and necessary way of doing business. Goody for you and the jap car in your driveway....it was built by your ignorance of your responsibility to your fellow Americans and your near-sighted (read stupid) world-view of how business works. ONLY the USA practices cannibalism on it's own kind....sending their jobs away to some asain mutt who might well be chained to his bench. And you sit here all righteous and proud you ain't in their shoes. Well guess what....Detroit WILL be bailed out partially with your tax dollars, if you still have a job that is, because that's how we do things in America....we look out for each other....so piss and moan about it...who cares?

my F150 just flipped you...

for someone who supposedly reveres Henry Ford who was a capitalist.....you certainly don't seem to support captialism in today's global world.....your terms 'responsibility to your fellow Americans', 'bailout', and 'we look out for each other' are the words of a socialist....

not only have auto capitalists been lowering car prices today (in real terms) but also improving the lives of millions.....as did Henry Ford....
Today?s new vehicles are cheaper and more reliable than ever before in history; the middle class never had it so good | AEIdeas

tariffs may be a partial answer to major change...but in the long run setting the entrepreneur and small businessman free from taxes and regulation strangulation is the real answer to future growth...that would bring tons of business (both foreign and domestic) back to America.....however all those help-each-other 'progressive' policies are clamping down and preventing that....

 

[Ame®icano]

And steal the wage the union guys bargained for? yeah, if you're a stinkin SCAB you can do that. And remember this; the assembly-plants (not mfg plants) the japs have here were built with taxpayer dollars, not company money. And the non-union wages there are only good as long as the UAW gets a fair wage from Detroit. UAW goes under, those boys down in Arkansas and Alabama are gonna get cut big time....

You union-haters should remember if Henry Ford hadn't ordered his Pinkertons to shoot at striking auto-workers, the unions wouldn't have had to go to the Italians for protection. That had strings attached...it's the rackets boys who are behind the dirty unions, not the workers.

Are you sure that was Ford? Sounds more like Carnegie Homestead Mill shooting.

Yep. Henry was a good man in the beginning....his genius was to build a car his workers could buy. His early investors wanted to build cars for the rich and messed him up to the point he hated investors and swore he'd find some who would see his vision....and he did. But this lead to him being a BILLIONAIRE...one of the few in the world at the time. Edsel pleaded with him to follow the others and let the UAW organize Ford, but Henry grew more hostile by the year until he finally hired a guy named "Harry" somebody or other to crack heads....after they built River Rouge, it was a gestapo atmosphere with Harry's thugs watching for union organizers and beating senseless anybody who listened to them. Finally it led to gunfire. And retaliation. Ford was unionized, Edsel drank himself to death, and Henry went mad.

Oh, there is a problem... Ford was greedy BILLIONAIRE.

He made first production line, offered more then double to his workers. It wasn't enough.
Then he introduced 48 hour working week, it wasn't enough. He cut it to 40 hour and it still wasn't enough. Union wanted to get in to make their own rules. They were already in thru "communist party and their sympathizers". He resisted until 1941 when River Rouge strike happened. There were fights but was no gunfire.

 

[Ame®icano]

I agree that I ain't run those streets since the early 70's....now answer my question.

I didn't confused anyone with anyone. There is an old saying: Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

So the question was: "how are Detroit blacks supposed to rise out of their conditions without a JOB?"

For start, don't burn businesses that feed you, stop voting for brother just cause he's brother, bring businesses back to the city and when they return, instead of demanding freebies, roll up your sleeves and earn your pay...

Not you, but those we're talking about.

 

[JoeBlam]

anybody can make cars today.....that's why outsourcing happens in any business.....they can be made easily and cheaper elsewhere....and the Japanese were certainly masters at it...

unless the factories create something brand new it is highly doubtful the auto business will ever go back to its glory days....

Detroit failed to encourage entrepreneurs and other businesses to succeed and therefore contracted just like the auto business instead of expanding new horizons...

You look at outsourcing like it's an inevitable and necessary way of doing business. Goody for you and the jap car in your driveway....it was built by your ignorance of your responsibility to your fellow Americans and your near-sighted (read stupid) world-view of how business works. ONLY the USA practices cannibalism on it's own kind....sending their jobs away to some asain mutt who might well be chained to his bench. And you sit here all righteous and proud you ain't in their shoes. Well guess what....Detroit WILL be bailed out partially with your tax dollars, if you still have a job that is, because that's how we do things in America....we look out for each other....so piss and moan about it...who cares?

my F150 just flipped you...

for someone who supposedly reveres Henry Ford who was a capitalist.....you certainly don't seem to support captialism in today's global world.....your terms 'responsibility to your fellow Americans', 'bailout', and 'we look out for each other' are the words of a socialist....

not only have auto capitalists been lowering car prices today (in real terms) but also improving the lives of millions.....as did Henry Ford....
Today?s new vehicles are cheaper and more reliable than ever before in history; the middle class never had it so good | AEIdeas

tariffs may be a partial answer to major change...but in the long run setting the entrepreneur and small businessman free from taxes and regulation strangulation is the real answer to future growth...that would bring tons of business (both foreign and domestic) back to America.....however all those help-each-other 'progressive' policies are clamping down and preventing that....

Of course, but you're still not answering the question...WHO in their right mind wouldn't agree that we're in trade deals so stacked against us we can never compete? I've run successful businesses my whole life and have a degree with minor in economics. There is no good outcome from outsourcing...you're handing your former workers over to a competitor who can out-cheap you. FYI....companies are starting to realize they made a mistake leaving American shores then trying to sell to Americans who lost their jobs because of it. I say give them a little wakey wakey by giving them 180 days to either refurbish and reopen their shuttered American plants, or suffer DEATH TARIFFS and confiscation of any product remaining in the US as contraband. I'd also order the Navy to torpedo any ships from the orient approaching Long Beach, Ca. as a reminder we're not bluffing. Imagine the BOOM such a policy would create....5 or 6 million jobs in a matter of weeks, goods and services suddenly flying off the shelves, a real estate boom, a FLOOD of tax revenue into the empty Social Sercurity and Medicare coffers...Hell, we might even be able to pay a little principal on the debt instead of borrowing to cover the vig. It can happen....imagine it then do it.

 

[bripat9643]

"A Deal is a Deal".

If the city of Detroit made an employment agreement with these workers that guaranteed a certain pension, then the city should not be allowed to welch on that deal.

The principal that contracts must be honored is a cornerstone of any free enterprise system.

It's incredible that conservatives believe the very principals that make capitalism possible are not applicable to working class people.

Whose going to pay them, dipshit? I didn't make any contracts with them. Another basic principle of capitalism is that you're only on the hook for things that you have agreed to.

The whole point of bankruptcy is to allow you to get out from under your contracts, or do you think we should send people who can't pay their debts to prison?

 

[thanatos144]

And steal the wage the union guys bargained for? yeah, if you're a stinkin SCAB you can do that. And remember this; the assembly-plants (not mfg plants) the japs have here were built with taxpayer dollars, not company money. And the non-union wages there are only good as long as the UAW gets a fair wage from Detroit. UAW goes under, those boys down in Arkansas and Alabama are gonna get cut big time....

You union-haters should remember if Henry Ford hadn't ordered his Pinkertons to shoot at striking auto-workers, the unions wouldn't have had to go to the Italians for protection. That had strings attached...it's the rackets boys who are behind the dirty unions, not the workers.

Steal what union wages ??
the wages the unions bargained for on behalf of their members from the company is a agreement between them and the company .

if i go to work for a auto maker and they offer me a wage (whether if be the same or more than the union dickheads get ) thats between me and the company not the unions business .
trouble with the unions is they think they own ..
i have a RIGHT to bargain for my own wage/ benefits

so if a company has 20,000 employees the company has to sit down with 20,000 individuals and have 20,000 individual contracts?....

Yes... Thats why they have HR departments.

 

[JoeBlam]

are you sure that was ford? Sounds more like carnegie homestead mill shooting.

yep. Henry was a good man in the beginning....his genius was to build a car his workers could buy. His early investors wanted to build cars for the rich and messed him up to the point he hated investors and swore he'd find some who would see his vision....and he did. But this lead to him being a billionaire...one of the few in the world at the time. Edsel pleaded with him to follow the others and let the uaw organize ford, but henry grew more hostile by the year until he finally hired a guy named "harry" somebody or other to crack heads....after they built river rouge, it was a gestapo atmosphere with harry's thugs watching for union organizers and beating senseless anybody who listened to them. Finally it led to gunfire. And retaliation. Ford was unionized, edsel drank himself to death, and henry went mad.

oh, there is a problem... Ford was greedy billionaire.

He made first production line, offered more then double to his workers. It wasn't enough.
Then he introduced 48 hour working week, it wasn't enough. He cut it to 40 hour and it still wasn't enough. Union wanted to get in to make their own rules. They were already in thru "communist party and their sympathizers". He resisted until 1941 when river rouge strike happened. there were fights but was no gunfire.

bullshit.

 

[thanatos144]

Once again, you can blame the blacks, you can blame the democrats, you can blame the unions until Hell freezes over but you better blame the companies who moved offshore and took our JOBS with them. Everything that was promised in Detroit and many other cities, was based on a continuing tax revenue from workers....with jobs. Is Detroit unique? Only in that the blacks burned down their own neighborhoods and ran thousands of whites out of town. Other than that, Detroit isn't unique at all. I read this morning CHICAGO is on the ropes. What kind of shape do you suppose Cleveleand is in? Pittsburgh moved away from steel and has apparently saved themselves by becoming a regional center for various services.....so good for them. LA is toast. Only overbearing tax-loads are saving the eastern cities. So like Thanatos144 says, don't do any victory jigs about Detroit.....there are several cities who made promises in good times made lousy by companies who abandoned the cities that made them great.

It was the unions and the government that ran the companies out..... They didnt go to Mexico they went to right to work states.

 

[thanatos144]

and any pensions paid should also get pennies on the dollar.... if that at all.

Why? all pensions according to Michigan constitution should have already been paid for. If not and they get pennies on the dollar it means WE the people have committed fraud. It will be a sad day... It is gong to happen I know but it is a sad day.

"Michigan Constitution Article IX, Section 24

The accrued financial benefits of each pension plan and retirement system of the state and its political subdivisions shall be a contractual obligation thereof which shall not be diminished or impaired thereby.

Financial benefits arising on account of service rendered in each fiscal year shall be funded during that year and such funding shall not be used for financing unfunded accrued liabilities."

How many of you think that money is still there?

I didnt say it was still there..... I do say we gave them our word.

 

[JoeBlam]

That's it....I've said my piece about my Hometown and I'm done with it and the jackasses here who are braying about a city they never lived in, know nothing about, and are just revealing their own racism and false sense of superiority. I'm pulling my dog outta this fight....he's chewed on the curs long enough and I'm worried he'll lose his edge for when he has to fight some wolves....

 

[thanatos144]

So let me get this right.....Many of you feel it is a good thing for retired people to lose pensions promised to them from their employers namely us? Are we going to start doing this to soldiers and police and firemen?

At what point is our word still good?

I didn't promise them jack shit. Let the taxpayers of Detroit make up the difference in their pensions.

Now who is being the progressive????? Your representatives made that promise that means you gave them power to do so that means that was your word given.

 

[martybegan]

That's it....I've said my piece about my Hometown and I'm done with it and the jackasses here who are braying about a city they never lived in, know nothing about, and are just revealing their own racism and false sense of superiority. I'm pulling my dog outta this fight....he's chewed on the curs long enough and I'm worried he'll lose his edge for when he has to fight some wolves....

[ame=http://youtu.be/jrXP5zoFxss]Bugger Off - Lyrics , - YouTube[/ame]

 

[SuMar]

Well, if it weren't for all the democrat gimme entitlement programs, perhaps the city wouldn't have to file for bankruptcy.....

 

[thanatos144]

anybody can make cars today.....that's why outsourcing happens in any business.....they can be made easily and cheaper elsewhere....and the Japanese were certainly masters at it...

unless the factories create something brand new it is highly doubtful the auto business will ever go back to its glory days....

Detroit failed to encourage entrepreneurs and other businesses to succeed and therefore contracted just like the auto business instead of expanding new horizons...

You look at outsourcing like it's an inevitable and necessary way of doing business. Goody for you and the jap car in your driveway....it was built by your ignorance of your responsibility to your fellow Americans and your near-sighted (read stupid) world-view of how business works. ONLY the USA practices cannibalism on it's own kind....sending their jobs away to some asain mutt who might well be chained to his bench. And you sit here all righteous and proud you ain't in their shoes. Well guess what....Detroit WILL be bailed out partially with your tax dollars, if you still have a job that is, because that's how we do things in America....we look out for each other....so piss and moan about it...who cares?

Outsourcing didn't kill Detroit. Democrats and unions did. If it wasn't for their thievery the companies wouldn't have needed to leave.

 

[Vox]

Guys, the relations between PRIVATE companies, unions and workers is a totally different issue from what we have in Detroit wherr TAXPAYER'S money are used to secure the backdoor deals between one political party and electorate.

If the electorate was so stupid to vote the liars into power in exchange for unsustainable promises - let the party they were voting for pay their pensions.

Even FDR understood that there is no place for the unions in the goverment since it is the start of the demise.

 

[TemplarKormac]

the greed and avarice?.....lets see what you say templar when some kid your age tells you when you are in your 60's that you are a greedy fuck and dont deserve what you just worked 30 years to get.....back 30 years ago when those guys were your age and was offered a govt job.....everyone said to them.....hey thats great, good pay, good benefits, job security .....good going.....now they are greedy fucks.....

Hey, if they aren't willing to help their city out of the doldrums... what else do I call it Harry? If they are unwilling to make some sort of sacrifice to save the city they worked for, then what is it called? Greed and avarice. There is no other way to describe it. Okay, let me put it more succinctly.

My Grandmother is a retiree. She worked at UGA fron 1969 to 2003. Thirty-four years. She has a pension. BUT, she is and has made it clear that she would be willing to take a hit if the city she lived in were bankrupt and needed some way of recovering from it. I know, I know, a retiree should not have to pay for the mistakes of the city.

But something has to give correct? Either the city collapses under its own debt or you agree to take a cut in your pension check. Your city is $18 billion underwater. What about the other people who live there? Should they have to suffer for your unwillingness to compromise? Those are hard questions, and I know you have to live on that check. But the future of your home, your community, and your city depend on it (in this fictional scenario at least). Why such a terse reaction to such a sacrifice? Would you be willing to help pull your city out of the grave?

A man can take a bullet for his country, or for his family, but he he won't take a hit in his pension to save his hometown. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is incredibly sad.

some retirees are finding it hard to survive now....so lets make it harder for them....and then they go get some kind of aide and you are paying for them anyway....so how are you saving money?.........and another question.....are the politicians losing their pension as well?....or did they put some kind of clause in that makes them immune to this kind of shit?......

Yes, some retirees like my grandmother barely get by. But instead of making the situation worse by being unforgiving and unyielding, she would rather have some pension than none at all. If the city loses the ability to pay your pension, who's fault would that be exactly? Yes, politicians didn't really help the situation, but there has to be some give and take. If you are so unwilling to make some sort of change in the wallet, you may have helped sign your death warrant, as well as that of your payer. So ask yourself, would you rather make do with less, or make do without?

 

[thanatos144]

I know whats going to happen. Obama will float Detroit a loan hoping it will be enough to hold its fall till after 2014. I also know that these men and women retired will now be fucked royally. I also know many libertarians and so called conservatives are taking glee in this. WTF is wrong with you people? You might not like the deal but is it worth losing your honor over? You all sound like a bunch of whiny progressives pointing fingers screaming " it isnt my problem He did it!!" If I could financially help these people I would......I dont even fucking live there anymore.... Do you know why? Because they will be AMERICANS in need. I sure as fuck wont be laughing in there face telling them they deserved it.