Should Detroit's municipal retirees lose their pensions?

[martybegan]

Do you think they wont?????? All they will need to do is show old women eating Cat food. Public unions are a bad idea yes. Making it impossible to attract good people to be civil servants is just as stupid as well.

This has nothing to do with current civil servants, who's retirements should all be turned into 401k style programs. It has to do with no money availible for past retirees because of collusion between the unions and the politicans.

Emotion should have nothing to do with this (but it will, because people are mushy idiots)

So you want to change pensions of people already getting it? I weep for our country that we are so selfish that our word means shit to people like you.

I'm being told SS will be solvent in 40 years when i retire. I'm not holding my breath.

Defined benefit programs are a dinosaur in our current lifespan environment.

Best thing is to dissolve the pension funds to the point that the current people on them can live comfortably, and then refund everyone who paid in thier share plus a reasonable return into a 401k plan. That way the government cannot shirk on contributions because they will be up front.

 

[deltex1]

Should a librarian get 36 k per year pension? How much did she put into the pension fund during her working career...and how much will she take out if she lives another 20 years.

I put 26k into social security and now get that much out every year..a 100% return on my investment......every year. How can we afford that?


Detroit Pensioners in their Own Words: ?No One Has Any Idea? | Fox Business

 

[thanatos144]

This has nothing to do with current civil servants, who's retirements should all be turned into 401k style programs. It has to do with no money availible for past retirees because of collusion between the unions and the politicans.

Emotion should have nothing to do with this (but it will, because people are mushy idiots)

So you want to change pensions of people already getting it? I weep for our country that we are so selfish that our word means shit to people like you.

I'm being told SS will be solvent in 40 years when i retire. I'm not holding my breath.

Defined benefit programs are a dinosaur in our current lifespan environment.

Best thing is to dissolve the pension funds to the point that the current people on them can live comfortably, and then refund everyone who paid in thier share plus a reasonable return into a 401k plan. That way the government cannot shirk on contributions because they will be up front.

We are young enough to know SS is a wash.....We are not yanking 70 year old people off of it now though are we???? Any fix or even dissolving of SS would never effect those on it right now. Why? Cause we gave our word to them. The same needs to happen to those on their pension now. Those not retired or has only been retired for 5 years or less should prepare for their world to change drastically. No I dont think the fed should bail them out....I do think the state needs to man up. I also think that all that can be sold in Detroit should be sold. the game is over.

 

[Granny]

It's too bad that these people might lose part or all of their pensions ... it's sort of like the situation with ENRON down in Texas: Greed and dishonesty. When ENRON finally collapsed a lot of people lost their jobs AND their pensions almost instantaneously.

A lot of Detroit's problems can be laid at the feet of unions that demanded more than the city could sustain going forward. When Detroit (like other cities) started having so-called "white flight" to the suburbs some decades ago, but those people still worked in Detroit, everything was humming on along. Business was good, unions demanded more and more, but at the same time Detroit was losing it's tax base.

When Detroit's major businesses started cutting back and people started loosing their jobs, inner city residents (regardless of race) were stuck, the outflow from city coffers increased from the already existing population on welfare and other financial aid to now include those who were slowly being added to the tally through job loss and salary loss.

Add to the mix increasingly more stringent governmental rules and regulations on businesses and the resulting costs of adhering to those rules and regulations added onto the existing costs of overhead necessary to run a business and you have a recipe for disaster.

At some point the money runs out all the way around.

 

[thanatos144]

Should a librarian get 36 k per year pension? How much did she put into the pension fund during her working career...and how much will she take out if she lives another 20 years.

I put 26k into social security and now get that much out every year..a 100% return on my investment......every year. How can we afford that?


Detroit Pensioners in their Own Words: ?No One Has Any Idea? | Fox Business

Do you have any idea how much 36 thousand a year is? It not a lot.... Hell I make over 20 grand a year and dont make much over minimum. I would be more worried about the prior mayors pensions..... Them fuckers are the true thieves.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

"A Deal is a Deal".

If the city of Detroit made an employment agreement with these workers that guaranteed a certain pension, then the city should not be allowed to welch on that deal.

The principal that contracts must be honored is a cornerstone of any free enterprise system.

It's incredible that conservatives believe the very principals that make capitalism possible are not applicable to working class people.

If the city of Detroit made an employment agreement with these workers that guaranteed a certain pension, then the city should not be allowed to welch on that deal.

Great idea. With what money?

If we could piss away a trillion dollars on the Iraq Fiasco, we can find the money to bail out one of our own cities.

Problem is... Detroit is just the beginning.

Without meaningful reforms, this will just continue on and on and on and on... there's not enough money to satisfy all this. Period.

 

[TemplarKormac]

some retirees are finding it hard to survive now....so lets make it harder for them....and then they go get some kind of aide and you are paying for them anyway....so how are you saving money?.........and another question.....are the politicians losing their pension as well?....or did they put some kind of clause in that makes them immune to this kind of shit?......

Yes, some retirees like my grandmother barely get by. But instead of making the situation worse by being unforgiving and unyielding, she would rather have some pension than none at all. If the city loses the ability to pay your pension, who's fault would that be exactly? Yes, politicians didn't really help the situation, but there has to be some give and take. If you are so unwilling to make some sort of change in the wallet, you may have helped sign your death warrant, as well as that of your payer. So ask yourself, would you rather make do with less, or make do without?

so if they go on some kind of tax payer supported aide you are still paying out for them......and you did not answer my question about the politicians and their pensions......

Hey, hey when I say "you" I mean everyone from the top down. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. My point is, no matter what situation you may be in, there is always someone else who has it worse. So think about them too. Will you put the needs of yourself above the future of the whole city? You live there too, don't you?

Yes, you are still paying for them. But if you won't pay more, or make a sacrifice, kiss your entire pension goodbye. When the city goes, your pension goes. If nobody is willing to help, the city dies, drowning in it's own debt. Yes, it's hard, yes you need that money to live, but when you put your own needs and desires in front of the collective good; you aren't the solution, you are the problem.

 

[Wyatt earp]

This has nothing to do with current civil servants, who's retirements should all be turned into 401k style programs. It has to do with no money availible for past retirees because of collusion between the unions and the politicans.

Emotion should have nothing to do with this (but it will, because people are mushy idiots)

So you want to change pensions of people already getting it? I weep for our country that we are so selfish that our word means shit to people like you.

I'm being told SS will be solvent in 40 years when i retire. I'm not holding my breath.

Defined benefit programs are a dinosaur in our current lifespan environment.

Best thing is to dissolve the pension funds to the point that the current people on them can live comfortably, and then refund everyone who paid in thier share plus a reasonable return into a 401k plan. That way the government cannot shirk on contributions because they will be up front.

we should pass a bill that every one hitting 67 gets $5 grand a month in SS, fuck the the future generation they will just have to raise taxes to pay for it.

 

[martybegan]

So you want to change pensions of people already getting it? I weep for our country that we are so selfish that our word means shit to people like you.

I'm being told SS will be solvent in 40 years when i retire. I'm not holding my breath.

Defined benefit programs are a dinosaur in our current lifespan environment.

Best thing is to dissolve the pension funds to the point that the current people on them can live comfortably, and then refund everyone who paid in thier share plus a reasonable return into a 401k plan. That way the government cannot shirk on contributions because they will be up front.

We are young enough to know SS is a wash.....We are not yanking 70 year old people off of it now though are we???? Any fix or even dissolving of SS would never effect those on it right now. Why? Cause we gave our word to them. The same needs to happen to those on their pension now. Those not retired or has only been retired for 5 years or less should prepare for their world to change drastically. No I dont think the fed should bail them out....I do think the state needs to man up. I also think that all that can be sold in Detroit should be sold. the game is over.

I never gave my word to anybody. Some dead politican gave thier word to them.

 

[JoeBlam]

Okay, I'll return (thanks but really, the applause isn't necessary) to say all SS and Medicare and yes, probably all pensions, will soon have to be means-tested. I know half a dozen millionaires taking SS payments and maintaining their aging husks on Sam's dime. That's bullshit. Set an amount that a person is NETTING after taxes and make it a threshold for receiving benefits. If the retiree should fall under the that mark any given year, then the benefits are restored for that year. Don't wail about the "fairness" of this to me....I don't give a shit who likes it or doesn't....it's the only way these programs can stay solvent given the Fortune 500 has abandoned us to hire the yellow man to do what used to be our jobs while we're left to sell each other insurance and cheeseburgers....only in America eh?

 

[ShootSpeeders]

that is why we need to bring more business and more free trade to America....that is what will create new jobs.....protectionism goes only so far and is not really the answer.....

That's nice but the best way to create wealth is to produce more businessmen and scientists. It's people with technical skills that matter. Our colleges need to end all this liberal arts and humanities crap. Poets don't build bridges.

 

[thanatos144]

Yes, some retirees like my grandmother barely get by. But instead of making the situation worse by being unforgiving and unyielding, she would rather have some pension than none at all. If the city loses the ability to pay your pension, who's fault would that be exactly? Yes, politicians didn't really help the situation, but there has to be some give and take. If you are so unwilling to make some sort of change in the wallet, you may have helped sign your death warrant, as well as that of your payer. So ask yourself, would you rather make do with less, or make do without?

so if they go on some kind of tax payer supported aide you are still paying out for them......and you did not answer my question about the politicians and their pensions......

Hey, hey when I say "you" I mean everyone from the top down. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. My point is, no matter what situation you may be in, there is always someone else who has it worse. So think about them too. Will you put the needs of yourself above the future of the whole city? You live there too, don't you?

Yes, you are still paying for them. But if you won't pay more, or make a sacrifice, kiss your entire pension goodbye. When the city goes, your pension goes. If nobody is willing to help, the city dies, drowning in it's own debt. Yes, it's hard, yes you need that money to live, but when you put your own needs and desires in front of the collective good; you aren't the solution, you are the problem.

you act as if Detroit is a isolated incident..... it is the harbinger of things to come. How the state deals with this will tell us how to deal with Chicago and LA and San Fransisco and Atlanta and Miami and New York City and on and on. This isn't a gotcha moment boy this is the beginning of the true depression. Real things have to happen now.

 

[thanatos144]

I'm being told SS will be solvent in 40 years when i retire. I'm not holding my breath.

Defined benefit programs are a dinosaur in our current lifespan environment.

Best thing is to dissolve the pension funds to the point that the current people on them can live comfortably, and then refund everyone who paid in thier share plus a reasonable return into a 401k plan. That way the government cannot shirk on contributions because they will be up front.

We are young enough to know SS is a wash.....We are not yanking 70 year old people off of it now though are we???? Any fix or even dissolving of SS would never effect those on it right now. Why? Cause we gave our word to them. The same needs to happen to those on their pension now. Those not retired or has only been retired for 5 years or less should prepare for their world to change drastically. No I dont think the fed should bail them out....I do think the state needs to man up. I also think that all that can be sold in Detroit should be sold. the game is over.

I never gave my word to anybody. Some dead politican gave thier word to them.

Are you truly this selfishly stupid? Who do you think gave the politician the power to make that deal????? It sure as fuck wasn't Santa.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

Problem is... Detroit is just the beginning.

Without meaningful reforms, this will just continue on and on and on and on... there's not enough money to satisfy all this. Period.

Detroit appears to be unique. What other large city is 90% black.? It's the blackness that causes a return to the stone age. That's why all of africa is that way.

 

[martybegan]

Okay, I'll return (thanks but really, the applause isn't necessary) to say all SS and Medicare and yes, probably all pensions, will soon have to be means-tested. I know half a dozen millionaires taking SS payments and maintaining their aging husks on Sam's dime. That's bullshit. Set an amount that a person is NETTING after taxes and make it a threshold for receiving benefits. If the retiree should fall under the that mark any given year, then the benefits are restored for that year. Don't wail about the "fairness" of this to me....I don't give a shit who likes it or doesn't....it's the only way these programs can stay solvent given the Fortune 500 has abandoned us to hire the yellow man to do what used to be our jobs while we're left to sell each other insurance and cheeseburgers....only in America eh?

So basically turn SS into another tax instead of a retirement program.

If people paid into it, they should get money out of it. Anything else is another money grab by envious hucksters such as yourself, always looking for someone else to pay for thier stuff.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

If we could piss away a trillion dollars on the Iraq Fiasco, we can find the money to bail out one of our own cities.

And don't forget the $20 trillion given to useless banks and insurance companies. Why do we pay taxes when they can just print the money?

 

[thanatos144]

Problem is... Detroit is just the beginning.

Without meaningful reforms, this will just continue on and on and on and on... there's not enough money to satisfy all this. Period.

Detroit appears to be unique. What other large city is 90% black.? It's the blackness that causes a return to the stone age. That's why all of africa is that way.

Do us all a favor and before you type just slap yourself cause chances are you going to post something fucking ignorant.

 

[TemplarKormac]

so if they go on some kind of tax payer supported aide you are still paying out for them......and you did not answer my question about the politicians and their pensions......

Hey, hey when I say "you" I mean everyone from the top down. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. My point is, no matter what situation you may be in, there is always someone else who has it worse. So think about them too. Will you put the needs of yourself above the future of the whole city? You live there too, don't you?

Yes, you are still paying for them. But if you won't pay more, or make a sacrifice, kiss your entire pension goodbye. When the city goes, your pension goes. If nobody is willing to help, the city dies, drowning in it's own debt. Yes, it's hard, yes you need that money to live, but when you put your own needs and desires in front of the collective good; you aren't the solution, you are the problem.

you act as if Detroit is a isolated incident..... it is the harbinger of things to come. How the state deals with this will tell us how to deal with Chicago and LA and San Fransisco and Atlanta and Miami and New York City and on and on. This isn't a gotcha moment boy this is the beginning of the true depression. Real things have to happen now.

I told Carbine this exact same thing. Don't act like I don't think this will happen again. California is a shining example of what is happening on a state level as compared to a city. When a state goes bankrupt, more will follow. This is but the first domino of many to fall.

 

[JoeBlam]

Okay, I'll return (thanks but really, the applause isn't necessary) to say all SS and Medicare and yes, probably all pensions, will soon have to be means-tested. I know half a dozen millionaires taking SS payments and maintaining their aging husks on Sam's dime. That's bullshit. Set an amount that a person is NETTING after taxes and make it a threshold for receiving benefits. If the retiree should fall under the that mark any given year, then the benefits are restored for that year. Don't wail about the "fairness" of this to me....I don't give a shit who likes it or doesn't....it's the only way these programs can stay solvent given the Fortune 500 has abandoned us to hire the yellow man to do what used to be our jobs while we're left to sell each other insurance and cheeseburgers....only in America eh?

So basically turn SS into another tax instead of a retirement program.

If people paid into it, they should get money out of it. Anything else is another money grab by envious hucksters such as yourself, always looking for someone else to pay for thier stuff.

You're 25? You don't know shit about anything....I was 25 once....and although I was quite a bit smarter than you are, I didn't know shit about anything either....you're gonna have to grow into a smart person....you got a long way to go, kid. But yeah, it's INSURANCE for your geezerdom...you don't need it, you don't get it. Pretty simple eh?

 

[thanatos144]

Hey, hey when I say "you" I mean everyone from the top down. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. My point is, no matter what situation you may be in, there is always someone else who has it worse. So think about them too. Will you put the needs of yourself above the future of the whole city? You live there too, don't you?

Yes, you are still paying for them. But if you won't pay more, or make a sacrifice, kiss your entire pension goodbye. When the city goes, your pension goes. If nobody is willing to help, the city dies, drowning in it's own debt. Yes, it's hard, yes you need that money to live, but when you put your own needs and desires in front of the collective good; you aren't the solution, you are the problem.

you act as if Detroit is a isolated incident..... it is the harbinger of things to come. How the state deals with this will tell us how to deal with Chicago and LA and San Fransisco and Atlanta and Miami and New York City and on and on. This isn't a gotcha moment boy this is the beginning of the true depression. Real things have to happen now.

I told Carbine this exact same thing. Don't act like I don't think this will happen again. California is a shining example of what is happening on a state level as compared to a city. When a state goes bankrupt, more will follow. This is but the first domino of many to fall.

I am under no illusion that those retired wont get screwed cause we all know they already were the moment they took the job. In Detroit the only half ass good job was a city job. Its like we punish those for drinking out of the only watering hole in a dessert. I just hope the state after they sell all that can be sold in Detroit can lessen the pain as much as possible....No before you get all puffed up I am dead set against a federal intervention because it wont help it will just make it worse.