Should Detroit's municipal retirees lose their pensions?

[deltex1]

I am not zeroing in on the librarian...we could and should ask the same question of all and we would find we over promised ......now what?

 

[JoeBlam]

By paying off this one federally, we basically open it up to all federally.

Let detroit figure it out, they got themselves into this mess. Let the other localities figure it out themselves as well.

People always get hurt no matter what happens. The hurt should be limited to the area that caused it.

Nut up, or shut up.

I need you to go find where I said federal bailout was needed?????Please do that and I fully expect you to apologize for lying about what I posted.

So who gets to pay for those pensions? Detroit is broke, the tax base can't support the city now, much less any additional costs or taxes. Detroit made the promises to the workers, not Michigan or the other 49 states. But since cutting the pensions is off the table (something that routinely happens when private companies file for bankruptcy but something that should never happen to a public entity for some reason), who gets to pay and how?

As I understand it, the city pensions are solvent...it's the healthcare benefits that are sucking the life out of the city....I may be mistaken but I believe that's the case as it stands now. The healthcare can be shifted into Barry-Care. The unsecured debt is gone....they had their chance to get a dime on a dollar and said no, so that's it for them. Hundreds of homeowners have stopped paying property taxes...that needs to be corrected. And finally, the city needs to become attractive to new business....that's begun but needs to be accelerated. Also the city needs to unincorporate and sell a lot of it's property outside what is felt can remain within fire and police protection. It can work if everybody remembers these are our fellow Americans we're talking about in a city that produced the "Arsenal for Democracy" that won WW2. We can't lose Detroit....that's just not an option.

 

[Steven_R]

So who gets to pay for those pensions? Detroit is broke, the tax base can't support the city now, much less any additional costs or taxes. Detroit made the promises to the workers, not Michigan or the other 49 states. But since cutting the pensions is off the table (something that routinely happens when private companies file for bankruptcy but something that should never happen to a public entity for some reason), who gets to pay and how?

We already told you. Eliminate all the EBT and SNAP and medicaid and section 8 crap. Those welfare queens were never promised the money like the retirees were.

Doesn't matter. The system was designed to start paying out at the average death age, not to pay for 30 year vacations. Even if it was there aren't enough warm bodies to pay the taxes to support the people on the system. As it is now, it's something like 3 workers to every 1 retiree. It started out at about 24:1. That number is only going to get worse. It's a tax that takes out of one pocket and gives to another, pure and simple, regardless of what spin is put on it.

 

[Staidhup]

No, freeze the pensions, reevaluate the actual appreciation rate over the past 5 years such that it reflects the actual market return versus promised and forecasted, reach an equitable valuation. Cut medical guarantee coverage. Force current employees to pay 25% of their coverage expense. As for property owners not paying property taxes, force them into foreclosure. Start running Detroit like a business and stop coddling to every liberal punks desires. Of interest was todays council meeting, it focused on Trevon Martin and not the financial state of emergency that is relevant today. Detroit is a mess and unfortunately the tip of the iceberg, more to come. One final comment, no federal bailout!

 

[bripat9643]

They most likely will lose it all. And that happens in contracts all the time. People lose money they are promised in deals, because one party cannot pay the money promised. I've had some clients who couldn't pay their bills and it was more expensive to litigate the process than to just write it off as a loss.

You can sue people all you want for a breach of contract, but if they don't have the money, they don't have the money. Squeeze a rock all you want, you will never get juice.

They expect to get "the juice" from the rest of the taxpayers in the United States. You know, everyone who didn't have anything to do with this dirty deal.

 

[bripat9643]

So let me get this right.....Many of you feel it is a good thing for retired people to lose pensions promised to them from their employers namely us? Are we going to start doing this to soldiers and police and firemen?

At what point is our word still good?

I didn't promise them jack shit. Let the taxpayers of Detroit make up the difference in their pensions.

Now who is being the progressive????? Your representatives made that promise that means you gave them power to do so that means that was your word given.

Nope. I don't live in Detroit. My representatives promised them zilch. I owe them zilch, even by your idiotic servile standard of morality.

 

[Mr Natural]

They most likely will lose it all. And that happens in contracts all the time. People lose money they are promised in deals, because one party cannot pay the money promised. I've had some clients who couldn't pay their bills and it was more expensive to litigate the process than to just write it off as a loss.

You can sue people all you want for a breach of contract, but if they don't have the money, they don't have the money. Squeeze a rock all you want, you will never get juice.

They expect to get "the juice" from the rest of the taxpayers in the United States. You know, everyone who didn't have anything to do with this dirty deal.

You can bitch and moan all you like but you know damn well that Detroit will be bailed out one way or another.

 

[JoeBlam]

No, freeze the pensions, reevaluate the actual appreciation rate over the past 5 years such that it reflects the actual market return versus promised and forecasted, reach an equitable valuation. Cut medical guarantee coverage. Force current employees to pay 25% of their coverage expense. As for property owners not paying property taxes, force them into foreclosure. Start running Detroit like a business and stop coddling to every liberal punks desires. Of interest was todays council meeting, it focused on Trevon Martin and not the financial state of emergency that is relevant today. Detroit is a mess and unfortunately the tip of the iceberg, more to come. One final comment, no federal bailout!

Sounds like a pretty good plan for the pensions.

 

[bripat9643]

I know whats going to happen. Obama will float Detroit a loan hoping it will be enough to hold its fall till after 2014. I also know that these men and women retired will now be fucked royally. I also know many libertarians and so called conservatives are taking glee in this. WTF is wrong with you people? You might not like the deal but is it worth losing your honor over? You all sound like a bunch of whiny progressives pointing fingers screaming " it isnt my problem He did it!!" If I could financially help these people I would......I dont even fucking live there anymore.... Do you know why? Because they will be AMERICANS in need. I sure as fuck wont be laughing in there face telling them they deserved it.

So you think it is FAIR to demand from all Americans to pay for the Cadillac pensions they have not agreed upon?
I got news for you - Americans don't thjnk so.

I am willing to let them have 17% of those. Together with SS it is enough.

I expect that we as Americans do whats right.

What's "right" about shaking down the entire country because some sleazy politicians made ridiculous promises to union thugs?

 

[bripat9643]

Do you think they wont?????? All they will need to do is show old women eating Cat food. Public unions are a bad idea yes. Making it impossible to attract good people to be civil servants is just as stupid as well.

This has nothing to do with current civil servants, who's retirements should all be turned into 401k style programs. It has to do with no money availible for past retirees because of collusion between the unions and the politicans.

Emotion should have nothing to do with this (but it will, because people are mushy idiots)

So you want to change pensions of people already getting it? I weep for our country that we are so selfish that our word means shit to people like you.

The promises that sleazy crooked politicians made to union thugs don't matter one iota to me.

 

[Vox]

Do you have any idea how much 36 thousand a year is? It not a lot.... Hell I make over 20 grand a year and dont make much over minimum. I would be more worried about the prior mayors pensions..... Them fuckers are the true thieves.

you have a great point here.

Pensions of all municipal workers are overblown, but some are more than the others. So the solution might be in making them lumped together - and dispersing an even amount. If there are 10 K people in for pensions and there is only certain amount of money one is able to spend on pensions - let it be an even sum for everybody.
At least it will finally put their money where their mouth is - in term of being socialistic for decades
I bet the highest city officials will love it

 

[bripat9643]

They most likely will lose it all. And that happens in contracts all the time. People lose money they are promised in deals, because one party cannot pay the money promised. I've had some clients who couldn't pay their bills and it was more expensive to litigate the process than to just write it off as a loss.

You can sue people all you want for a breach of contract, but if they don't have the money, they don't have the money. Squeeze a rock all you want, you will never get juice.

They expect to get "the juice" from the rest of the taxpayers in the United States. You know, everyone who didn't have anything to do with this dirty deal.

You can bitch and moan all you like but you know damn well that Detroit will be bailed out one way or another.

How many Americans, do you supposed, are inclined to bailout a bunch of union slobs who get to retire for 30 years on a 100% pension?

 

[Vox]

Okay, I'll return (thanks but really, the applause isn't necessary) to say all SS and Medicare and yes, probably all pensions, will soon have to be means-tested. I know half a dozen millionaires taking SS payments and maintaining their aging husks on Sam's dime. That's bullshit. Set an amount that a person is NETTING after taxes and make it a threshold for receiving benefits. If the retiree should fall under the that mark any given year, then the benefits are restored for that year. Don't wail about the "fairness" of this to me....I don't give a shit who likes it or doesn't....it's the only way these programs can stay solvent given the Fortune 500 has abandoned us to hire the yellow man to do what used to be our jobs while we're left to sell each other insurance and cheeseburgers....only in America eh?

no, what you write is bullshit.

those millionaires paid much more to the SS the those on the other end of the stick ever imagined. and you can't force Detroit contracts on a local level on the whole nation and at the same time deny obligations of the same type of contract to others based on their income.
Not because it's immoral.
Because it will damage the SS - people are very flexible in their inventions and guess what - the same millionaires you are aiming at will eventually trick the system to paid LESS than MORE.

The ones who are paying the least in taxes are exactly the two sides of the opposite diameter - the very rich and the so-called poor. The load is on the man in the middle.
You want to increase it even more?

 

[Vox]

They most likely will lose it all. And that happens in contracts all the time. People lose money they are promised in deals, because one party cannot pay the money promised. I've had some clients who couldn't pay their bills and it was more expensive to litigate the process than to just write it off as a loss.

You can sue people all you want for a breach of contract, but if they don't have the money, they don't have the money. Squeeze a rock all you want, you will never get juice.

They expect to get "the juice" from the rest of the taxpayers in the United States. You know, everyone who didn't have anything to do with this dirty deal.

You can bitch and moan all you like but you know damn well that Detroit will be bailed out one way or another.

No, it won't. Because the moment it happens we will have a shitload of municipal bankruptcy filings.
Even somebody as dumb as obama knows that.

 

[Redfish]

Lots of talk about doing that and i say go for it. These were all affirmative action hires and didn't deserve the job in the first place.

if there is no money to pay them, what other alternative is there?

 

[Vox]

I know whats going to happen. Obama will float Detroit a loan hoping it will be enough to hold its fall till after 2014. I also know that these men and women retired will now be fucked royally. I also know many libertarians and so called conservatives are taking glee in this. WTF is wrong with you people? You might not like the deal but is it worth losing your honor over? You all sound like a bunch of whiny progressives pointing fingers screaming " it isnt my problem He did it!!" If I could financially help these people I would......I dont even fucking live there anymore.... Do you know why? Because they will be AMERICANS in need. I sure as fuck wont be laughing in there face telling them they deserved it.

So you think it is FAIR to demand from all Americans to pay for the Cadillac pensions they have not agreed upon?
I got news for you - Americans don't thjnk so.

I am willing to let them have 17% of those. Together with SS it is enough.

I expect that we as Americans do whats right.

paying them 17% of their pensions and benefits is exactly right.

 

[Redfish]

They expect to get "the juice" from the rest of the taxpayers in the United States. You know, everyone who didn't have anything to do with this dirty deal.

You can bitch and moan all you like but you know damn well that Detroit will be bailed out one way or another.

No, it won't. Because the moment it happens we will have a shitload of municipal bankruptcy filings.
Even somebody as dumb as obama knows that.

california is waiting in the wings.

 

[Vox]

You can bitch and moan all you like but you know damn well that Detroit will be bailed out one way or another.

No, it won't. Because the moment it happens we will have a shitload of municipal bankruptcy filings.
Even somebody as dumb as obama knows that.

california is waiting in the wings.

yep. and a million others.

 

[JoeBlam]

Okay, I'll return (thanks but really, the applause isn't necessary) to say all SS and Medicare and yes, probably all pensions, will soon have to be means-tested. I know half a dozen millionaires taking SS payments and maintaining their aging husks on Sam's dime. That's bullshit. Set an amount that a person is NETTING after taxes and make it a threshold for receiving benefits. If the retiree should fall under the that mark any given year, then the benefits are restored for that year. Don't wail about the "fairness" of this to me....I don't give a shit who likes it or doesn't....it's the only way these programs can stay solvent given the Fortune 500 has abandoned us to hire the yellow man to do what used to be our jobs while we're left to sell each other insurance and cheeseburgers....only in America eh?

no, what you write is bullshit.

those millionaires paid much more to the SS the those on the other end of the stick ever imagined. and you can't force Detroit contracts on a local level on the whole nation and at the same time deny obligations of the same type of contract to others based on their income.
Not because it's immoral.
Because it will damage the SS - people are very flexible in their inventions and guess what - the same millionaires you are aiming at will eventually trick the system to paid LESS than MORE.

The ones who are paying the least in taxes are exactly the two sides of the opposite diameter - the very rich and the so-called poor. The load is on the man in the middle.
You want to increase it even more?

Sorry, my idiot quota is full for the day.....try again tomorrow.

 

[Redfish]

So you think it is FAIR to demand from all Americans to pay for the Cadillac pensions they have not agreed upon?
I got news for you - Americans don't thjnk so.

I am willing to let them have 17% of those. Together with SS it is enough.

I expect that we as Americans do whats right.

paying them 17% of their pensions and benefits is exactly right.

when Delta went through bankruptcy a few years ago its retirees had major cuts in their pensions. shit happens. sorry detroit.