Should Detroit's municipal retirees lose their pensions?

[TemplarKormac]

 

[thereisnospoon]

Lots of talk about doing that and i say go for it. These were all affirmative action hires and didn't deserve the job in the first place.

If there is no funding for the pensions, then yes.
I think the workers accounts should be switched to 401k's. Why should they be any different from the private sector.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Work 35 years and have your pension pulled

Republican version of the American Dream

So? What the hell do you think everyone else does? They SAVE for their retirement.

 

[thereisnospoon]

So let me get this right.....Many of you feel it is a good thing for retired people to lose pensions promised to them from their employers namely us? Are we going to start doing this to soldiers and police and firemen?

At what point is our word still good?

Should we change all pension agreements for those not yet retired????? Oh hell yes we should. But I am not looking forward to yanking old people income cause politicians went to far.


It going to happen. We can't afford them anymore. But It damn well should be held off as long as possible and we should take no fucking joy in it....

It's tragic.
Here's the problem. The voters in these places kept the very same people that were taking the pension money and throwing it down a rat hole.
The money HAS to come from somewhere. The taxpayers can no longer pay..
So if the source of funding is gone, what's next? Osmosis?
BTW, the taxpayers never had a say when these wage and benefit packages were...... ahem' ....negotiated.
Are you suggesting the taxpayers take it in the shorts because of a "promise"?....The promise the politicians threw to the curb?
Where does it end?

 

[bripat9643]

No it gives you the right to sue me for the money and garnish what I make to pay for it. Do you think they wont sue the state ?

The State isn't their employer, so they have no grounds.

No the citizens of the state are

Nope. Perhaps the citizens of Detroit are their employer, but the idea that they are somehow legally liable for their pensions doesn't pass the laugh test. The employee unions used extortion and bribery to obtain contracts that no rational businessman would ever sign. If they have to go back to work, I don't give a shit. I'd love to see them all working at McDonald's.

 

[bripat9643]

No the citizens of the state are

nope, they are not

They are.

Wrong.

 

[TemplarKormac]

By means of direct taxation, the city is the employer. However if you want to get technical, taxpayers are the employers.

 

[HUGGY]

Work 35 years and have your pension pulled

Republican version of the American Dream

If you rob a bank, how much of it do you get to keep when the Law finally catches up to you?

In some cases all of it.

 

[Wry Catcher]

The State isn't their employer, so they have no grounds.

No the citizens of the state are

Nope. Perhaps the citizens of Detroit are their employer, but the idea that they are somehow legally liable for their pensions doesn't pass the laugh test. The employee unions used extortion and bribery to obtain contracts that no rational businessman would ever sign. If they have to go back to work, I don't give a shit. I'd love to see them all working at McDonald's.

The employee unions used extortion and bribery to obtain contracts that no rational businessman would ever sign", please post the evidence of your allegation.

How many times have you sat at the table negotiating a contract? IMO you're an ignorant person without any real world experience and react hysterically out of envy & hate. Get some counseling.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Lots of talk about doing that and i say go for it. These were all affirmative action hires and didn't deserve the job in the first place.

If there is no funding for the pensions, then yes.
I think the workers accounts should be switched to 401k's. Why should they be any different from the private sector.

in the past....there was an understanding that government workers would get a government pension in return for their years of work at typically lower wages than the private sector......

this was BEFORE governments like Detroit started jacking up their pay as high or higher than the private sector as well as padding both their pensions and their health benefits....

 

[Katzndogz]

There are two retirees of Detroit for every working person and the retiree has retirement benefits completely out of proportion to the retirees of the private sector. Detroit, no matter how much it wants to, will not be able to pay these pension benefits. That's just reality. There will likely be some kind of structured benefit payout with older pensioners getting most of their benefits and those who retired at 45 or 50 getting very little or none at all.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

There are two retirees of Detroit for every working person and the retiree has retirement benefits completely out of proportion to the retirees of the private sector. Detroit, no matter how much it wants to, will not be able to pay these pension benefits. That's just reality. There will likely be some kind of structured benefit payout with older pensioners getting most of their benefits and those who retired at 45 or 50 getting very little or none at all.

And hopefully none of these pensioners will get more than say $40,000 a year. A retiree can live very will on 40k.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Why doesn't the left care about economics?

 

[JoeBlam]

UPDATE: A federal judge tossed out the nonsense that MILF pill-head up in Lansing tried, and has taken over all litigation claims against the city. The constitutional issue about the pension bennies is left undecided as of today. They are considered solvent at this time...it's the healthcare promises that are the real money-pit. Those can be shifted into Barry-Care before it implodes and then shifted over to a combo medicare/medicaid package like we just did here in Arizona. Benefits will have to cut and the retirees have been put on notice they have the next 6 months of full-benefits guaranteed but then must make plans for a cut.

 

[thanatos144]

I got to thinking about this..... I think maybe I haven't been making my position as clear as it can be.... Mostly cause it pisses me off seeing liberaltarians high fiveing each other over the misfortune of others....Reminds me to much of democrats cause they both act childish.

My position is that I wish the state of Michigan figure out a way to lessen to devastation this bankruptcy is going to cause on things LIKE pensions.... I never once thought it was a good idea for a federal bailout. Now many kept accusing me of this mostly cause they were idiots who couldn't read or were to caught up in their own ignorant biases. Things like this needs adult minds to work out not childish ha ha gotcha stupidity. No adult wants to see people starve or homeless and if you think this isnt going to happen you are not thinking straight.....Now this is going to happen regardless of what people do but that doesnt mean we have to make it worse.

 

[martybegan]

I got to thinking about this..... I think maybe I haven't been making my position as clear as it can be.... Mostly cause it pisses me off seeing liberaltarians high fiveing each other over the misfortune of others....Reminds me to much of democrats cause they both act childish.

My position is that I wish the state of Michigan figure out a way to lessen to devastation this bankruptcy is going to cause on things LIKE pensions.... I never once thought it was a good idea for a federal bailout. Now many kept accusing me of this mostly cause they were idiots who couldn't read or were to caught up in their own ignorant biases. Things like this needs adult minds to work out not childish ha ha gotcha stupidity. No adult wants to see people starve or homeless and if you think this isnt going to happen you are not thinking straight.....Now this is going to happen regardless of what people do but that doesnt mean we have to make it worse.

While I do realize that municipal authority in states flows DOWN from the state to the localities, I still do not see why this has to be Michigan's problem as opposed to Detroit's problem. In fact, once it becomes Michigan's problem it is almost a guarantee to transition to a federal problem, as Michigan's finances are not in the greatest of shape either.

If there is "glee" to be felt from the right on this, it is the sole fact that people on the right side of the economic spectrum have been saying this is going to happen for decades. I see it as less glee (although on a message board you are going to get that) and more grim vindication of what sane people have been saying all along: the current system of large city public unions and public pension systems cannot hold.

 

[Steven_R]

Why doesn't the left care about economics?

Because Supply & Demand magically doesn't work when government is involved.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

I got to thinking about this..... I think maybe I haven't been making my position as clear as it can be.... Mostly cause it pisses me off seeing liberaltarians high fiveing each other over the misfortune of others....Reminds me to much of democrats cause they both act childish.

My position is that I wish the state of Michigan figure out a way to lessen to devastation this bankruptcy is going to cause on things LIKE pensions.... I never once thought it was a good idea for a federal bailout. Now many kept accusing me of this mostly cause they were idiots who couldn't read or were to caught up in their own ignorant biases. Things like this needs adult minds to work out not childish ha ha gotcha stupidity. No adult wants to see people starve or homeless and if you think this isnt going to happen you are not thinking straight.....Now this is going to happen regardless of what people do but that doesnt mean we have to make it worse.

how is anybody going to starve etc. when there are federal food stamps and other forms of aid......?
this is all working out according to the lefties grand plan....

 

[Steven_R]

I got to thinking about this..... I think maybe I haven't been making my position as clear as it can be.... Mostly cause it pisses me off seeing liberaltarians high fiveing each other over the misfortune of others....Reminds me to much of democrats cause they both act childish.

My position is that I wish the state of Michigan figure out a way to lessen to devastation this bankruptcy is going to cause on things LIKE pensions.... I never once thought it was a good idea for a federal bailout. Now many kept accusing me of this mostly cause they were idiots who couldn't read or were to caught up in their own ignorant biases. Things like this needs adult minds to work out not childish ha ha gotcha stupidity. No adult wants to see people starve or homeless and if you think this isnt going to happen you are not thinking straight.....Now this is going to happen regardless of what people do but that doesnt mean we have to make it worse.

I'm not happy people are suffering, but the fact is the money is not there to pay these people their pensions, at least at the levels they want an for as long as they want. Detroit's tax base is too small to cover current expenses much less past expenses.

Math doesn't lie.

 

[Katzndogz]

I got to thinking about this..... I think maybe I haven't been making my position as clear as it can be.... Mostly cause it pisses me off seeing liberaltarians high fiveing each other over the misfortune of others....Reminds me to much of democrats cause they both act childish.

My position is that I wish the state of Michigan figure out a way to lessen to devastation this bankruptcy is going to cause on things LIKE pensions.... I never once thought it was a good idea for a federal bailout. Now many kept accusing me of this mostly cause they were idiots who couldn't read or were to caught up in their own ignorant biases. Things like this needs adult minds to work out not childish ha ha gotcha stupidity. No adult wants to see people starve or homeless and if you think this isnt going to happen you are not thinking straight.....Now this is going to happen regardless of what people do but that doesnt mean we have to make it worse.

The poor fools who bought Detroit bonds are going to lose everything. They will be equally as devastated as the pensioners. People make bad decisions. The people who looked at Detroit, knew that it had a poor financial picture and didn't go to work for the city. They left the city. They didn't buy Detroit municipal bonds, they bought some other city's bonds instead. The pensioners were nothing more than investors. They invested years of employment instead of life savings. They have a secured debt, like every other secured debt. They are no different than Enron investors who lost everything when Enron went down. Whatever can be done for them, as secured creditors, will be done, just like it's done for all the other secured creditors.