Should religion be eliminated

[AveryJarhman]

#TheLargerIssue #Fatherlessness #ChildNeglectMaltreatment #MentalHealth #SOLUTIONS

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Peace.

 

[ding]

And here I thought political correctness was more about being shamed because they didn't agree with the norms.

I think you're saying the same thing as I am. "Being shamed" is the enforcement mechanism.

I knew if we worked hard enough we could find something we agree on.

 

[ding]

And here I thought political correctness was more about being shamed because they didn't agree with the norms.

I think you're saying the same thing as I am. "Being shamed" is the enforcement mechanism.

You never did tell me if you were familiar with the saeculum cycle or not. Specifically the book written by Howe and Strauss, The Fourth Turning.

 

[well named]

I must have missed that question. No, I'm not familiar with it. A quick glance kind of makes me think I wouldn't be super enthusiastic about it. The whole "archetypes" thing might be too Jungian for my tastes, and the whole thing sounds pretty dubious.

 

[ding]

I must have missed that question. No, I'm not familiar with it. A quick glance kind of makes me think I wouldn't be super enthusiastic about it. The whole "archetypes" thing might be too Jungian for my tastes, and the whole thing sounds pretty dubious.

So you don't believe history repeats itself?

 

[ding]

I must have missed that question. No, I'm not familiar with it. A quick glance kind of makes me think I wouldn't be super enthusiastic about it. The whole "archetypes" thing might be too Jungian for my tastes, and the whole thing sounds pretty dubious.

Not a fan of Carl Jung?

Let me ask you this question then, do you believe opposites attract?

 

[BreezeWood]

The problem with your perception that religions are controlling is that it is wrong. There is no enforcement.

I'm not persuaded by your assertion. But as I said, I don't think it's easy to demonstrate either way, so I'm inclined to just move on from this aspect of our discussion.

I can live with that but it seems to me that religion teaches civility while secular governments enforce civility. Broadly speaking of course.

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I can live with that but it seems to me that religion teaches civility while secular governments enforce civility.

I can live with that ... There is no enforcement.

the salem witch trials ...

it is amazing the extent to which christians, the desert religions will disavow the most heinousness crimes committed by their religions uninterrupted in every century as from biblical christianity's inception in the 4th century to pretend the establishment of secular law is not the remedy made necessary stemming from their maleficent behavior.

secular laws origin and necessity is derived from deleterious religious dogma ...

 

[well named]

So you don't believe history repeats itself?

I don't believe that American history repeats itself in regular generational intervals, no. "History repeats itself" is pretty vague. There's lots of similarities across historical events of course, but noticing those similarities isn't the same as making a predictive theory of regular cycles.

Not a fan of Carl Jung?

Not particularly.

Let me ask you this question then, do you believe opposites attract?

Sometimes? And sometimes not I don't think the platitude has much more value as an explanatory or predictive theory than "history repeats itself" does.

 

[ding]

Let me ask you this question then, do you believe opposites attract?

Sometimes? And sometimes not I don't think the platitude has much more value as an explanatory or predictive theory than "history repeats itself" does.

Can you think of any reason why opposites might attract?

 

[BreezeWood]

If religions teach morality, they also punish violations, e.g. by ostracizing adherents who fail to adhere to religious norms, or by excluding non-members or would-be members who violate those norms, e.g. churches which will not tolerate openly gay members.

I cannot speak for all religions or even all denominations in Christianity. The Catholic Church, at least in most places, is remarkably tolerant, but there are lines one cannot cross yet still call themselves Catholic. For example, while the Church does help those recover from the trauma of abortion and forgive them, one cannot teach that abortion is permissible because Church teaching is that all life--from conception to natural death--is to be highly valued as it is our greatest gift. The Church teaches a way of life and understands in attempting to live that Way, failures are going to occur. The Church is there to proclaim forgiveness and to encourage people to persist. Perfection is our goal, and perfection takes a lot of practice, a lot of do-overs. No one is shunned.

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No one is shunned.

No one is shunned ...

For example, while the Church does help those recover from the trauma of abortion and forgive them, one cannot teach that abortion is permissible because Church teaching is that all life--from conception to natural death--is to be highly valued as it is our greatest gift.

and forgive them ...

you understand very little the nature of the religion of antiquity you have taken for yourself through your book. were what you claim is true there could be no forgiveness and as that is not the case necessarily neither is your church teachings.

 

[well named]

I can think of reasons why I find the Socratic method tedious.

Edit: There was supposed to be a smiley here

 

[ding]

I can think of reasons why I find the Socratic method tedious.

Edit: There was supposed to be a smiley here

I agree. Except when I am doing it.

The reason I believe opposites attract is because we subconsciously look to compliment ourselves; to fill in our gaps so to speak. Which leads us to the phrase, you complete me. There is a reason these phrases stick; there is an element of truth in them. The problem is that it is probabilistic in nature as are most natural laws that are not physical laws.

My point here is that personality archetypes - like the ones Jung identified - are actually very helpful and useful if you understand how to use them.

I guess my next question is how is it you can form an opinion on Howe and Strauss' work without actually reading it for yourself? I'm sure when I asked you that question you did a quick search and formed your opinion - a negative one I might add - on their work. Do you think that is being objective?

 

[sealybobo]

Just because there's only one God doesn't mean everyone is automatically praying to him.

You know this how?

If someone is truly seeking guidance from above, do you think he would turn his back on them because they did not address him by the correct name. God goes by many names. He only cares that we seek him. He'll take care of the rest. It's not always a straight line.

He only cares that we seek him? You know this how?

Personal experience.

That not evidence.

And you are proving to be the kind of Christian I make fun of. It doesn’t matter how good you are. You believe so you think you’re in the club. That’s all Christians have to do is believe.

And be dunked. You’ve been baptized right?

Not for you because you didn't experience it. I did.

Do you mean the type of Christian who has witnessed a transformation in himself? Guilty as charged.

I see that you did agree that you believe religion should be eliminated. How far are you willing to go? Subversion? By force? What?

Education.

I will never do what Christianity did and force everyone under the kings rule to be a catholic or Protestant.

There will always be people who believe in god heaven and hell. It’s superstition. But you see how superstition doesn’t rule our lives like religion does?

Most people are living the way you are supposed to live. If they go to church, which most don’t, they keep it to themselves. It rarely comes up and most people don’t know I’m an atheist and I couldn’t tell you what religion they belong to.

Most Americans in the north east are only Christians because their parents told them they were. But they don’t practice at all. You count a lot of people as members and they are hardly members. And their kids will be agnostics. We see it happening now. Religion is declining naturally. We are evolving very fast on this. Even though the Bible Belt seems like it’s going nowhere it is. People aren’t buying it like they used to.

 

[ding]

You know this how?

If someone is truly seeking guidance from above, do you think he would turn his back on them because they did not address him by the correct name. God goes by many names. He only cares that we seek him. He'll take care of the rest. It's not always a straight line.

He only cares that we seek him? You know this how?

Personal experience.

That not evidence.

And you are proving to be the kind of Christian I make fun of. It doesn’t matter how good you are. You believe so you think you’re in the club. That’s all Christians have to do is believe.

And be dunked. You’ve been baptized right?

Not for you because you didn't experience it. I did.

Do you mean the type of Christian who has witnessed a transformation in himself? Guilty as charged.

I see that you did agree that you believe religion should be eliminated. How far are you willing to go? Subversion? By force? What?

Education.

I will never do what Christianity did and force everyone under the kings rule to be a catholic or Protestant.

There will always be people who believe in god heaven and hell. It’s superstition. But you see how superstition doesn’t rule our lives like religion does?

Most people are living the way you are supposed to live. If they go to church, which most don’t, they keep it to themselves. It rarely comes up and most people don’t know I’m an atheist and I couldn’t tell you what religion they belong to.

Most Americans in the north east are only Christians because their parents told them they were. But they don’t practice at all. You count a lot of people as members and they are hardly members. And their kids will be agnostics. We see it happening now. Religion is declining naturally. We are evolving very fast on this. Even though the Bible Belt seems like it’s going nowhere it is. People aren’t buying it like they used to.

You have an idealized view of the path not taken. And you might be surprised to find out that the Church tempered the rule of the monarchs too. And lastly, you might be surprised to find out that your view of a future without religion isn't all that you suppose it to be. Only time will tell.

 

[well named]

I guess my next question is how is it you can form an opinion on Howe and Strauss' work without actually reading it for yourself? I'm sure when I asked you that question you did a quick search and formed your opinion - a negative one I might add - on their work. Do you think that is being objective?

Oh obviously I'd have to read it to have a strong opinion. I just said it looks like the kind of stuff I tend to find dubious. I'm not trying to pass any final judgement on it. That's just a heuristic assessment, and as much of my tastes as anything else. However, the truth is I only have so much time and it's highly unlikely I'm going to prioritize reading that over other stuff I'm interested in, so unless something happens which makes me reassess it's probably as far as I'll ever get. C'est la vie?

 

[ding]

Ths proving another phrase... the pasture is always greener on the other side of the fence...








..that is until you actually get on the other side of the fence.

 

[ding]

I guess my next question is how is it you can form an opinion on Howe and Strauss' work without actually reading it for yourself? I'm sure when I asked you that question you did a quick search and formed your opinion - a negative one I might add - on their work. Do you think that is being objective?

Oh obviously I'd have to read it to have a strong opinion. I just said it looks like the kind of stuff I tend to find dubious. I'm not trying to pass any final judgement on it. That's just a heuristic assessment, and as much of my tastes as anything else. However, the truth is I only have so much time and it's highly unlikely I'm going to prioritize reading that over other stuff I'm interested in, so unless something happens which makes me reassess it's probably as far as I'll ever get. C'est la vie?

Do you believe that good can come from suffering and that bad can come from success?

 

[WheelieAddict]

Not possible. Silly question.

 

[Meriweather]

Education.

I will never do what Christianity did and force everyone under the kings rule to be a catholic or Protestant.

There will always be people who believe in god heaven and hell. It’s superstition. But you see how superstition doesn’t rule our lives like religion does?

Most people are living the way you are supposed to live. If they go to church, which most don’t, they keep it to themselves. It rarely comes up and most people don’t know I’m an atheist and I couldn’t tell you what religion they belong to.

Most Americans in the north east are only Christians because their parents told them they were. But they don’t practice at all. You count a lot of people as members and they are hardly members. And their kids will be agnostics. We see it happening now. Religion is declining naturally. We are evolving very fast on this. Even though the Bible Belt seems like it’s going nowhere it is. People aren’t buying it like they used to.

Humanity learns as we go, mostly by trial and error. While an entire nation following the religion of their king sounds unifying and therefore good, it did not take long to learn religion doesn't work like that. God and an afterlife is not superstition. Most people are living the way you are supposed to live? I question that because major depression is on the rise--especially in teens and young adults, the very people you praise as quickly evolving.

What is right about good religions is that it teaches a way of life that points to striving for the ideal. The right thing about church is that it reminds one of their deepest beliefs, and these are something we of which we actually need to be reminded, as strange as that may seem. Humans are designed to need God. We remove Him from our lives and there is a big hole that even our best pharmaceuticals cannot fill.

Twenty-first century man does not understand the Bible. Plus, not everything in the Bible relates to each and every individual personally. There is, however, something it in for everyone. Just because not all of it fits each of us individually, should not be the reason to throw it out in its entirety.

While you may see religion in decline, I see it more as a lot of the dead-weight being removed. Only then can future growth be healthy and thriving.

 

[well named]

The problem with your perception that religions are controlling is that it is wrong.

I just randomly visited The Atlantic website (as is my wont) and found this article: Lauren Daigle and the lost art of discernment. It happens to provide a pretty good example of what I had in mind when I talk about enforcement of social norms. I'm not citing it as though it proves some argument about representativeness, but I think it illustrates how these things are not rare exceptions to an otherwise general rule:

"The Grammy-nominated singer’s woes began in late October when she appeared on The Ellen DeGeneres Show to perform her newest single, “Still Rolling Stones.” Many of her conservative religious fans lashed out following the performance, since the show’s host is an openly gay woman....

This week, another radio host asked her directly about whether she believed that homosexuality was sinful, and Daigle responded that she wasn’t sure....

When the clip of her interview was posted online, it drew condemnation from conservative Christians. A writer at The Christian Post said Daigle had been tested by God and “failed,” choosing instead to “fraternize” with the devil by not condemning homosexuality. A Townhall columnist argued that Daigle had given into “the temptations that come with fame and influence” and called on Christians to pray for her to change course. Conservative Christian author John Burton claimed Daigle’s ambiguity compromised biblical truth and now “millions are at risk of deception.” Many on Twitter quickly declared that she can no longer be considered a Christian."
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Also they get points for citing John Climacus of all people, IMO. The Ladder of Divine Ascent is an interesting work