Simple Question: Did we (USA) win Iraq War?

[The Rabbi]

Clinton tried to defend the food and medicine given to the Somali people from being ripped off by criminals. That's not nation building.
Bombing, invading, occupying and putting a puppet government in power in a soverign nation is nation building. See Iraq for an example.

Or Haiti.

You still haven't explained how our actions in Somalia and Serbia qualify as nation building. Are you really trying to hide the current nation building in iraq and afghanistan behind those events?

No, I'm trying to point out the continued hypocrisy of the Left, which was fine with nation building under Clinton but now somehow complain that under Bush it was wrong.
But finding hypocrisy among the leftists is like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[The Rabbi]

Iraq War “To Do” List
1. Defeat Iraqi Military
2. Overrun Baghdad
3. Capture Saddam
4. Begin Martial Law
5. Defeat Insurgency
6. Facilitate Elections
7. Establish New Currency
8. Establish New Constitution
9. Establish Fair Markets
10. Rebuild infrastructure

10 for 10. Chalk it up for the Good Guys.

Is that how you define winning? Going through that to do list?

I think you will know the war was won when it is obvious that it was (say in 10 years of a stable Iraqi democracy). In the meantime, I think it's too early to judge.

By the way, the world isn't binary, maybe you should allow for a third option (or more), along the lines of "outlook looks good", "outlook looks bleak", "no, but we haven't lost either", etc.

Binary is only good for computers.

That's the biggest dodge I've seen outside of a GM dealership. By that measure we didnt know whether we had won WW2 until 1955 or so.

 

[code1211]

Iraq War “To Do” List
1. Defeat Iraqi Military
2. Overrun Baghdad
3. Capture Saddam
4. Begin Martial Law
5. Defeat Insurgency
6. Facilitate Elections
7. Establish New Currency
8. Establish New Constitution
9. Establish Fair Markets
10. Rebuild infrastructure

10 for 10. Chalk it up for the Good Guys.

We won't have the answer to this for another 40 or 50 years.

 

[The Rabbi]

Iraq War “To Do” List
1. Defeat Iraqi Military
2. Overrun Baghdad
3. Capture Saddam
4. Begin Martial Law
5. Defeat Insurgency
6. Facilitate Elections
7. Establish New Currency
8. Establish New Constitution
9. Establish Fair Markets
10. Rebuild infrastructure

10 for 10. Chalk it up for the Good Guys.

We won't have the answer to this for another 40 or 50 years.

Bullshit.
Based on that we're still wondering whether we won in Panama, or the British won the Falklands Islands war.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Iraq War “To Do” List
1. Defeat Iraqi Military
2. Overrun Baghdad
3. Capture Saddam
4. Begin Martial Law
5. Defeat Insurgency
6. Facilitate Elections
7. Establish New Currency
8. Establish New Constitution
9. Establish Fair Markets
10. Rebuild infrastructure

10 for 10. Chalk it up for the Good Guys.

Is that how you define winning? Going through that to do list?

I think you will know the war was won when it is obvious that it was (say in 10 years of a stable Iraqi democracy). In the meantime, I think it's too early to judge.

By the way, the world isn't binary, maybe you should allow for a third option (or more), along the lines of "outlook looks good", "outlook looks bleak", "no, but we haven't lost either", etc.

Binary is only good for computers.

But it's never too early to say "The War is Lost" or that "Iran will run Iraq", amiright?

 

[mudwhistle]

All of this arguing over winning a war.

Getting to the point.....it's impossible to win a war when you never declare one in the first place.

 

[CurveLight]

Or Haiti.

You still haven't explained how our actions in Somalia and Serbia qualify as nation building. Are you really trying to hide the current nation building in iraq and afghanistan behind those events?

No, I'm trying to point out the continued hypocrisy of the Left, which was fine with nation building under Clinton but now somehow complain that under Bush it was wrong.
But finding hypocrisy among the leftists is like shooting fish in a barrel.

When and where did Clinton engage in nation building?

 

[CurveLight]

Iraq War “To Do” List
1. Defeat Iraqi Military
2. Overrun Baghdad
3. Capture Saddam
4. Begin Martial Law
5. Defeat Insurgency
6. Facilitate Elections
7. Establish New Currency
8. Establish New Constitution
9. Establish Fair Markets
10. Rebuild infrastructure

10 for 10. Chalk it up for the Good Guys.

Is that how you define winning? Going through that to do list?

I think you will know the war was won when it is obvious that it was (say in 10 years of a stable Iraqi democracy). In the meantime, I think it's too early to judge.

By the way, the world isn't binary, maybe you should allow for a third option (or more), along the lines of "outlook looks good", "outlook looks bleak", "no, but we haven't lost either", etc.

Binary is only good for computers.

That's the biggest dodge I've seen outside of a GM dealership. By that measure we didnt know whether we had won WW2 until 1955 or so.

WW2 ended when Germany and Japan surrendered.

It's also pretty brave to accuse others of dodging when you have yet to defend your claim our actions in Somalia and Serbia qualify as nation building. Are you going to do so or shall we expect more partisan pie?

 

[mudwhistle]

You still haven't explained how our actions in Somalia and Serbia qualify as nation building. Are you really trying to hide the current nation building in iraq and afghanistan behind those events?

No, I'm trying to point out the continued hypocrisy of the Left, which was fine with nation building under Clinton but now somehow complain that under Bush it was wrong.
But finding hypocrisy among the leftists is like shooting fish in a barrel.

When and where did Clinton engage in nation building?

Somalia, Bosnia,.......

Said we'd be back by Christmas from Bosnia......we're still there.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

How different the world would be had anti-Semitic Jimmy Carter and the Dems not given Islamists and Jihadist state sponsorship in Iran?

How much better would we be even today had Clinton holdover at State not sabotaged our efforts to bring pressure on Iran and assist the uprising?

Pretty funny in contrast to the post above this one. How was Carter anti-Semitic? How can you have such disdain for America you would rather exploit our freedoms to falsely blame some group instead of using the freedoms to try and solve issues? Or is this bitch session mode more appealing because it means all you have to do is type? The alternative is scary.....get out and do some actual work.

Carter is anti-Semitic because he hates Jews and Israel and love Arafat and Islamists, pretty fucking straight forward.

Carter handed Iran to the Islamists, or are you going to dispute that?

The Democrats at State absolutely sabotaged our Iran policy during the Iraq War and there are many dead Iraqi students to show for it AND the mullahs are still in power AND Iran is going nuclear.

Bush should have had the CIA eliminate a few key people at State in the ME, I don't know why he allowed it. Since it was too politically explosive to properly charge them with treason, he should have had them whacked.

 

[The Rabbi]

You still haven't explained how our actions in Somalia and Serbia qualify as nation building. Are you really trying to hide the current nation building in iraq and afghanistan behind those events?

No, I'm trying to point out the continued hypocrisy of the Left, which was fine with nation building under Clinton but now somehow complain that under Bush it was wrong.
But finding hypocrisy among the leftists is like shooting fish in a barrel.

When and where did Clinton engage in nation building?

frontline: give war a chance: nation building in bosnia
Haiti:
http://www.aim.org/media-monitor/haiti-a-clinton-catastrophe/

But now that we've established that truth, why is it that the left screams about nation building by Bush but were OK with it under Clinton? Isn't that raw hypocrisy in action?

 

[CurveLight]

No, I'm trying to point out the continued hypocrisy of the Left, which was fine with nation building under Clinton but now somehow complain that under Bush it was wrong.
But finding hypocrisy among the leftists is like shooting fish in a barrel.

When and where did Clinton engage in nation building?

frontline: give war a chance: nation building in bosnia
Haiti:
Haiti A Clinton Catastrophe

But now that we've established that truth, why is it that the left screams about nation building by Bush but were OK with it under Clinton? Isn't that raw hypocrisy in action?

Yes it is hypocrisy to support nation building under one administration while denouncing it under another. Is your only interest here centered around deriding the Left?

 

[mudwhistle]

When and where did Clinton engage in nation building?

frontline: give war a chance: nation building in bosnia
Haiti:
Haiti A Clinton Catastrophe

But now that we've established that truth, why is it that the left screams about nation building by Bush but were OK with it under Clinton? Isn't that raw hypocrisy in action?

Yes it is hypocrisy to support nation building under one administration while denouncing it under another. Is your only interest here centered around deriding the Left?

I see similarities here.

The Dems were constantly asking for a time line for withdrawal.

The GOP is asking for a time line on a decision to send in more troops.

That's got to be hypocrisy at work. Right?

Who cares that people are dying while Obama procrastinates or people would have died if we had tipped off the enemy in Iraq. But that's really beside the point.

 

[The Rabbi]

When and where did Clinton engage in nation building?

frontline: give war a chance: nation building in bosnia
Haiti:
Haiti A Clinton Catastrophe

But now that we've established that truth, why is it that the left screams about nation building by Bush but were OK with it under Clinton? Isn't that raw hypocrisy in action?

Yes it is hypocrisy to support nation building under one administration while denouncing it under another. Is your only interest here centered around deriding the Left?

Yes.
Because the Left is the root of all that is wrong with America.

 

[CurveLight]

frontline: give war a chance: nation building in bosnia
Haiti:
Haiti A Clinton Catastrophe

But now that we've established that truth, why is it that the left screams about nation building by Bush but were OK with it under Clinton? Isn't that raw hypocrisy in action?

Yes it is hypocrisy to support nation building under one administration while denouncing it under another. Is your only interest here centered around deriding the Left?

I see similarities here.

The Dems were constantly asking for a time line for withdrawal.

The GOP is asking for a time line on a decision to send in more troops.

That's got to be hypocrisy at work. Right?

Who cares that people are dying while Obama procrastinates or people would have died if we had tipped off the enemy in Iraq. But that's really beside the point.

The bush admin signed a troop withdrawal timetable agreement long before obama got in office.

 

[CurveLight]

frontline: give war a chance: nation building in bosnia
Haiti:
Haiti A Clinton Catastrophe

But now that we've established that truth, why is it that the left screams about nation building by Bush but were OK with it under Clinton? Isn't that raw hypocrisy in action?

Yes it is hypocrisy to support nation building under one administration while denouncing it under another. Is your only interest here centered around deriding the Left?

Yes.
Because the Left is the root of all that is wrong with America.

The admission is appreciated and there is no possible dialogue with that approach. Hate has never been born with a tongue.

 

[The Rabbi]

Yes it is hypocrisy to support nation building under one administration while denouncing it under another. Is your only interest here centered around deriding the Left?

Yes.
Because the Left is the root of all that is wrong with America.

The admission is appreciated and there is no possible dialogue with that approach. Hate has never been born with a tongue.

You are right. Because the Left is filled with lies and dissemination there can be no meeting with truth. Hate is an entirely appropriate emotion towards people who are trying to destroy this great country.

 

[CurveLight]

Yes.
Because the Left is the root of all that is wrong with America.

The admission is appreciated and there is no possible dialogue with that approach. Hate has never been born with a tongue.

You are right. Because the Left is filled with lies and dissemination there can be no meeting with truth. Hate is an entirely appropriate emotion towards people who are trying to destroy this great country.

You deride the Left on the accusation of lying while dishonestly attributing my post. What was that complaint about hypocrisy? Please have the last word as I do not intend to give your hate a platform anymore.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Or Haiti.

You still haven't explained how our actions in Somalia and Serbia qualify as nation building. Are you really trying to hide the current nation building in iraq and afghanistan behind those events?

No, I'm trying to point out the continued hypocrisy of the Left, which was fine with nation building under Clinton but now somehow complain that under Bush it was wrong.
But finding hypocrisy among the leftists is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Rabbi, what about Granada and Panama?
[I'm much too polite to ever suggest you're a hypocrite ]

 

[Varth Dader]

That's the biggest dodge I've seen outside of a GM dealership. By that measure we didnt know whether we had won WW2 until 1955 or so.

I think the recent terrorist attack in Iraq shows that it's still work in progress.

The problem is that "winning" the war in this case is much more than the todo list that was posted -- or at least the last item on that list isn't done yet ("Rebuild infrastructure")
Plus I think you need to have "11. Stable government, stable society" -- and that is clearly still work in progress.