Snowden vs. Manning.

[Lakhota]

So, if one breaks "the law" (as defined by his non-disclosure agreement with his employer) to expose the FACT that the government is breaking "the law" (as defined by the US Constitution and precedent setting judicial decisions) he should be fried while the government continues to trample citizen's rights?

Methinks you just hate the exposure of treasonous fraud within the Obama administration.

Manning leaked all sorts of stuff about the Bush administration.

I said the exact same thing about him.

That he ought to be tried and punished.

My point is that you seem to condone the admin's breaking of the law and condemn Snowden for exposing it.

We are a nation of laws. Snowden wasn't legally empowered to make that decision.

 

[asaratis]

Manning leaked all sorts of stuff about the Bush administration.

I said the exact same thing about him.

That he ought to be tried and punished.

My point is that you seem to condone the admin's breaking of the law and condemn Snowden for exposing it.

We are a nation of laws. Snowden wasn't legally empowered to make that decision.

NSA wasn't legally empowered to spy on the American public.

 

[Lakhota]

Bullshit.

Nope, it's true. It was during Vietnam, so it's been a while. If I remember correctly, it was a Top Secret Crypto SIOP II. At least that's how I remember it.

Bullshit....SAC screened for idiots.

Maybe so, but the OSI still spent around $10k on my first background check. That was a lot of money in the mid '60's.

I commend you. Yes, it was in the Strategic Air Command. B-52s and KC-135s...

 

[Oddball]

Manning leaked all sorts of stuff about the Bush administration.

I said the exact same thing about him.

That he ought to be tried and punished.

My point is that you seem to condone the admin's breaking of the law and condemn Snowden for exposing it.

We are a nation of laws. Snowden wasn't legally empowered to make that decision.

Wow...Nation of laws.

Except when Dear Leader ignores bankruptcy laws and has a shotgun marriage between UAW and GM.

Except when Dear Leader makes recess appointments while the Senate is still in session.

Except when Dear Leader rules by decree via Executive Order.

Yeah, right.....Nation of laws...

 

[Lakhota]

My point is that you seem to condone the admin's breaking of the law and condemn Snowden for exposing it.

We are a nation of laws. Snowden wasn't legally empowered to make that decision.

Wow...Nation of laws.

Except when Dear Leader ignores bankruptcy laws and has a shotgun marriage between UAW and GM.

Except when Dear Leader makes recess appointments while the Senate is still in session.

Except when Dear Leader rules by decree via Executive Order.

Yeah, right.....Nation of laws...

Yes, nation of laws. That's why it's up to the courts and Congress to sort it out - not disgruntled vigilantes.

 

[dblack]

We are a nation of laws. Snowden wasn't legally empowered to make that decision.

Wow...Nation of laws.

Except when Dear Leader ignores bankruptcy laws and has a shotgun marriage between UAW and GM.

Except when Dear Leader makes recess appointments while the Senate is still in session.

Except when Dear Leader rules by decree via Executive Order.

Yeah, right.....Nation of laws...

Yes, nation of laws. That's why it's up to the courts and Congress to sort it out - not disgruntled vigilantes.

The courts and Congress are the criminals here, dumbass. You think they'll convict themselves?

 

[Synthaholic]

Snowden vs. Manning

I think Snowden has the better arm, but Manning can scramble from the pocket, and can also run the ball.

 

[Synthaholic]

Big differences between the two...as I stipulated in the other thread.

I also think this is different than the Manning case.

1) Snowden carefully ONLY released information on programs, tactics and techniques...Manning gave away everything including the kitchen sink without regard for the lives and safety of men and women involved in ongoing overseas operations.

2) Snowden goal was informing U.S. citizens of the government that is elected to represent them.

3) Snowden didn't try to hide his identity...he came right out and said "here's what I did and this is why I did it.". Manning, did not.

4) From what I've seen and read, I believe Snowden's intentions were pure and his motivations honorable. Manning's...not so much.

As @B. Kidd correctly pointed out...Manning simply data dumped 250,000 pages of classified data...with zero regard for the consequences in terms of lives placed in danger by his actions.

Just for clarification, but I believe it was all labeled Secret, but not Classified. I don't think he released any Classified info. I may be incorrect.

 

[Lakhota]

Wow...Nation of laws.

Except when Dear Leader ignores bankruptcy laws and has a shotgun marriage between UAW and GM.

Except when Dear Leader makes recess appointments while the Senate is still in session.

Except when Dear Leader rules by decree via Executive Order.

Yeah, right.....Nation of laws...

Yes, nation of laws. That's why it's up to the courts and Congress to sort it out - not disgruntled vigilantes.

The courts and Congress are the criminals here, dumbass. You think they'll convict themselves?

Well, are we a nation of laws or a nation of selfish vigilantes? Imagine if The Guardian and/or Washington Post chose to release all the documents Snowden provided them - including the names of specific people being spied upon? Actually, most of the damage has already been done.

 

[dblack]

Yes, nation of laws. That's why it's up to the courts and Congress to sort it out - not disgruntled vigilantes.

The courts and Congress are the criminals here, dumbass. You think they'll convict themselves?

Well, are we a nation of laws or a nation of selfish vigilantes? Imagine if The Guardian and/or Washington Post chose to release all the documents Snowden provided them - including the names of specific people being spied upon?

You keep using that phrase 'nation of laws', but I don't really think you understand what it's referring to. It's meant to contrast our style of government from dictatorships, where leaders persecute people and exercise power capriciously - as the Obama administration has done in this case. I don't guess it matters, because apparently your only goal is to defend them at any cost. But what it's costing you is the last shred of your integrity. You sure you wanna go there?

 

[Lakhota]

Big differences between the two...as I stipulated in the other thread.

I also think this is different than the Manning case.

1) Snowden carefully ONLY released information on programs, tactics and techniques...Manning gave away everything including the kitchen sink without regard for the lives and safety of men and women involved in ongoing overseas operations.

2) Snowden goal was informing U.S. citizens of the government that is elected to represent them.

3) Snowden didn't try to hide his identity...he came right out and said "here's what I did and this is why I did it.". Manning, did not.

4) From what I've seen and read, I believe Snowden's intentions were pure and his motivations honorable. Manning's...not so much.

As @B. Kidd correctly pointed out...Manning simply data dumped 250,000 pages of classified data...with zero regard for the consequences in terms of lives placed in danger by his actions.

Just for clarification, but I believe it was all labeled Secret, but not Classified. I don't think he released any Classified info. I may be incorrect.

You may be right, but my understanding is that he released top secret classified documents to The Guardian and Washington Post. That's why NSA is freaked out.

 

[Lakhota]

Wow...Nation of laws.

Except when Dear Leader ignores bankruptcy laws and has a shotgun marriage between UAW and GM.

Except when Dear Leader makes recess appointments while the Senate is still in session.

Except when Dear Leader rules by decree via Executive Order.

Yeah, right.....Nation of laws...

Yes, nation of laws. That's why it's up to the courts and Congress to sort it out - not disgruntled vigilantes.

The courts and Congress are the criminals here, dumbass. You think they'll convict themselves?

That's what the ballot box is for.

 

[Crackerjaxon]

Big differences between the two...as I stipulated in the other thread.

I also think this is different than the Manning case.

1) Snowden carefully ONLY released information on programs, tactics and techniques...Manning gave away everything including the kitchen sink without regard for the lives and safety of men and women involved in ongoing overseas operations.

2) Snowden goal was informing U.S. citizens of the government that is elected to represent them.

3) Snowden didn't try to hide his identity...he came right out and said "here's what I did and this is why I did it.". Manning, did not.

4) From what I've seen and read, I believe Snowden's intentions were pure and his motivations honorable. Manning's...not so much.

As @B. Kidd correctly pointed out...Manning simply data dumped 250,000 pages of classified data...with zero regard for the consequences in terms of lives placed in danger by his actions.

Just for clarification, but I believe it was all labeled Secret, but not Classified. I don't think he released any Classified info. I may be incorrect.

Yes, you are.

Classified refers to information that has been restricted to people with clearances on certain levels.

When I was in the military, the classifications went like this:

EFTO encrypted for transmission only.

For Official Use Only

Confidential

Secret

Secret Crypto

Top Secret

Top Secret Crypto

They may have changed by now. I expect everything is encrypted automatically nowadays.

Top Secret information was held at the Top Secret Repository which was instantly referred to as the Top Secret Suppository by the troops.

Most people with combat specialties hold a secret clearance. A lot of admin people hold that clearance, too, since handling classified info is part of their jobs.

Top Secret clearances required a heavier background check and were pretty much restricted to officers, spooks, missile geeks, special forces types and other scary people.

A lot of workers in the defense industry hold secret clearances.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Both betrayed the trust of the government while working in some very sensitive areas. Both put on display how really seriously the government has hid information about what they are up.

One, conservatives wanted to see put to death.
One, conservatives hail as a hero.

One, stayed in their country to face the music.
One, fled.

Conservatives hail Manning as a hero?

Wait, the real problem here is that you are a wackadoodle.

That's the one they want dead.

Man..you almost got it right!

Would you like a list of conservatives who think they should both be dead?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

One is a criminal defendant, the other a potential fugitive.

Both are presumed innocent, neither are ‘heroes.’

You really need to get over your delusion that the law defines the entire world.

Snowden and Manning not withstanding, such acts are nothing more than civil liberties vigilantism, one may not take the law into his own hands, regardless how ‘noble’ the act may be perceived.

How do you explain Daniel Ellsberg?

“But no one in official ranks would listen to or believe them,” whine many conservatives and libertarians.

That’s completely irrelevant, and not justification for violating the law.

Except, of course, when it is.

By the way, most conservatives hate Snowden, most liberals are the ones supporting him.

To date, the PA, the NDAA, and FISA, among other laws and policies, have been subject to extensive judicial review. Aspects of the laws deemed by the courts to be un-Constitutional have been rewritten, revised, or removed; what remains or has not been subject to review is presumed to be Constitutional.

They have? Can you site actual cases to support that position, or am I just supposed to bow before you ability to make things up?

Current intelligence gathering programs are conducted under judicial supervision, that some believe such oversight is somehow ‘deficient’ is also irrelevant.

Ultimately the resolution to this controversy lies in the political and legislative process, not in the courts or the press or in the hands of irresponsible vigilantes.

It is irrelevant to point out that FISA courts deny less than 1% of requests? Is it also irrelevant to point out that there is an actual FISA decision that says something the government is doing is actually unconstitutional, but that Obama has classified it? Or am I just supposed to trust the man that ignored multiple court decisions that he didn't like?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

As someone who held a special top secret security clearance in the military....

Bullshit.

Nope, it's true. It was during Vietnam, so it's been a while. If I remember correctly, it was a Top Secret Crypto SIOP II. At least that's how I remember it.

What was special about that?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Manning leaked all sorts of stuff about the Bush administration.

I said the exact same thing about him.

That he ought to be tried and punished.

My point is that you seem to condone the admin's breaking of the law and condemn Snowden for exposing it.

We are a nation of laws. Snowden wasn't legally empowered to make that decision.

Neither are you, yet you don't seem to have a problem making it.

 

[Lakhota]

My point is that you seem to condone the admin's breaking of the law and condemn Snowden for exposing it.

We are a nation of laws. Snowden wasn't legally empowered to make that decision.

Neither are you, yet you don't seem to have a problem making it.

So, you consider my "opinion" equal to Snowden's vigilante "act" of endangering national security?

 

[Lakhota]

Bullshit.

Nope, it's true. It was during Vietnam, so it's been a while. If I remember correctly, it was a Top Secret Crypto SIOP II. At least that's how I remember it.

What was special about that?

Probably nothing to a "man" like you.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

We are a nation of laws. Snowden wasn't legally empowered to make that decision.

Neither are you, yet you don't seem to have a problem making it.

So, you consider my "opinion" equal to Snowden's vigilante "act" of endangering national security?

You are the one throwing judgement around, not me. How does it feel to be a hypocrite?