Snowden vs. Manning.

[dblack]

It's okay to have someone they approve of engage in this practice..but if they don't like the guy, it's bad.

Wow.. that's rich. Did you look in the mirror this morning?

 

[BlindBoo]

How about applying that same concern to IRS employees who divulged confidential tax records and the person in the Obama Administration (Panetta) who leaked the Seal Team Six details?

If it can be proven that someone broke the law. Sure why not? They should face whatever penalty the courts decide on.

Right. Exactly. Ellsberg even says Snowden committed a crime, and will have to deal with the consequences, whether that's prosecution or a life on the run. His willingness to do that, to do the right thing in the face of grave personal risk, is what makes him a hero in my book.

I actually suspect that Snowden will turn himself in. He's playing for time to get the story out.

So far the document is a court order isn't it? Not quite the same as Ellsberg.

"..... the Pentagon Papers. They revealed that the government had knowledge, early on, that the war could most likely not be won, and that continuing the war would lead to many times more casualties than was ever admitted publicly. Further, as an editor of the New York Times was to write much later, these documents "demonstrated, among other things, that the Johnson Administration had systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress, about a subject of transcendent national interest and significance".

Daniel Ellsberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"I felt that as an American citizen, as a responsible citizen, I could no longer cooperate in concealing this information from the American public. I did this clearly at my own jeopardy and I am prepared to answer to all the consequences of this decision."


Congress has known about and approved this since 2006. If Americans didn't realize this information was still being gathered then shame on them. If our enemies forgot it too, then whose to blame if now they know?

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Snowden a hero? Bull! He had a TS Compartmentalized security clearance. He took an oath to safeguard America's secrets however ugly. He's a traitor but more of an attention whore. He runs away to another country, all the while getting the attention he thinks he deserves, attention and recognition he feels he never got enough of while in America working for the CIA. He's loving all this attention, but he's hoping deep down, he doesn't get extradited.

It's all a question of "A hero to whom?" or "A traitor to whom?".

This country was founded by people who broke the law and committed treason against what they saw as an abusive government. Were they traitors, or heroes?

The founding fathers would have been hung for treason.

Yep, every one that signed the declaration. They were well aware of that too. There were some small sigs on that document. I don't blame 'em.

 

[Sallow]

It's okay to have someone they approve of engage in this practice..but if they don't like the guy, it's bad.

Wow.. that's rich. Did you look in the mirror this morning?

Yep.

Did you get your boyfriend's ass out of the way to see yours?

 

[dblack]

It's okay to have someone they approve of engage in this practice..but if they don't like the guy, it's bad.

Wow.. that's rich. Did you look in the mirror this morning?

Yep.

Seriously, you don't have any conception of 'hypocrisy'?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

While this may seem off topic (even wacky) the cultural implications of these actions are fascinating. In neither case was there a pressing need to reveal this information. They were not in the nature of the Pentagon Papers. Both present the modern American child, self centered and narcissistic, who know better than everyone else and feels no real moral concern. The libertarian hint above is telling. Am I off base? Listening to kids today, I don't know. There is no sense in serving more than the self?

As far as the conservative response that is simply political theater. Had this been addressed at President Romney the result would have been similar to wikileaks.

Thanks for finally proving how stupid you are, stick to copying quotes from now on.

Feel free to point out how McCain, who every idiotic Obama supporter on this board labelled a right wing conservative, actually supports this. So do many other conservative politicians.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Snowden released Top Secret material - whether it's a process or specifics, it makes no difference - it was Top Secret. Manning released a far lower level of classified material, though more indiscriminately. Both felt the government was committing grave wrongs that the public had a right to know.

Whether the government was violating anything or not remains to be seen.

We already knew about the NSA data mining program.

What the current administration is doing is much, much more extensive and intrusive, and there is probable cause to believe the information gathered has been used against political opponents, political advocates, journalists, Supreme Court justices, the list goes on and on.

I wonder how they found out about the details of Gen. Petreaus's affair?
How did they know that Ted Nugent had improperly tagged a kill during a hunting trip?
How did they come up with all of these stories about Mitt Romney?

The Obama Administration is spying on political opponents or anyone who just happens to piss him off at the moment. He thinks he can do anything he wants and get away with it. He doesn't believe the law applies to him.

It is hard to believe that some how that fact escaped the public discourse since when it was revealed it was originally done in secret, without a warrant.

Congress has been well aware of the program.

What has Congress said about it?

“We’re getting to a gap between what the public thinks the law says and what the American government secretly thinks the law says,” Wyden told Danger Room in an interview in his Senate office. “When you’ve got that kind of a gap, you’re going to have a problem on your hands.”
What exactly does Wyden mean by that? As a member of the intelligence committee, he laments that he can’t precisely explain without disclosing classified information. But one component of the Patriot Act in particular gives him immense pause: the so-called “business-records provision,” which empowers the FBI to get businesses, medical offices, banks and other organizations to turn over any “tangible things” it deems relevant to a security investigation.

There's a Secret Patriot Act, Senator Says | Danger Room | Wired.com

Maybe you should stop pretending that Congress approved of this when most of Congress didn't know about it.

By the way, Wyden isn't the only one that had a problem.

One provision that troubles me a great deal is a provision that permits the government under FISA to compel the production of records from any business regarding any person, if that information is sought in connection with an investigation of terrorism or espionage.

Now we're not talking here about travel records pertaining to a terrorist suspect, which we all can see can be highly relevant to an investigation of a terrorist plot. FISA already gives the FBI the power to get airline, train, hotel, car rental and other records of a suspect.

But under this bill, the government can compel the disclosure of the personal records of anyone - perhaps someone who worked with, or lived next door to, or went to school with, or sat on an airplane with, or has been seen in the company of, or whose phone number was called by -- the target of the investigation.

And under this new provisions all business records can be compelled, including those containing sensitive personal information like medical records from hospitals or doctors, or educational records, or records of what books someone has taken out of the library. This is an enormous expansion of authority, under a law that provides only minimal judicial supervision.

Under this provision, the government can apparently go on a fishing expedition and collect information on virtually anyone. All it has to allege in order to get an order for these records from the court is that the information is sought for an investigation of international terrorism or clandestine intelligence gathering. That's it. On that minimal showing in an ex parte application to a secret court, with no showing even that the information is relevant to the investigation, the government can lawfully compel a doctor or hospital to release medical records, or a library to release circulation records. This is a truly breathtaking expansion of police power.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...-2010-as-his-predictions-have-come-true.shtml

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If it can be proven that someone broke the law. Sure why not? They should face whatever penalty the courts decide on.

Right. Exactly. Ellsberg even says Snowden committed a crime, and will have to deal with the consequences, whether that's prosecution or a life on the run. His willingness to do that, to do the right thing in the face of grave personal risk, is what makes him a hero in my book.

I actually suspect that Snowden will turn himself in. He's playing for time to get the story out.

So far the document is a court order isn't it? Not quite the same as Ellsberg.

"..... the Pentagon Papers. They revealed that the government had knowledge, early on, that the war could most likely not be won, and that continuing the war would lead to many times more casualties than was ever admitted publicly. Further, as an editor of the New York Times was to write much later, these documents "demonstrated, among other things, that the Johnson Administration had systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress, about a subject of transcendent national interest and significance".

Daniel Ellsberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"I felt that as an American citizen, as a responsible citizen, I could no longer cooperate in concealing this information from the American public. I did this clearly at my own jeopardy and I am prepared to answer to all the consequences of this decision."


Congress has known about and approved this since 2006. If Americans didn't realize this information was still being gathered then shame on them. If our enemies forgot it too, then whose to blame if now they know?

Keep lying to yourself, I am sure it makes you feel better.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

So back to the OP. If they can't find Snowden does that mean that the US Government is now at the mercy of Snowden's mercy?

 

[Trajan]

We already knew about the NSA data mining program.

What the current administration is doing is much, much more extensive and intrusive, and there is probable cause to believe the information gathered has been used against political opponents, political advocates, journalists, Supreme Court justices, the list goes on and on.

I wonder how they found out about the details of Gen. Petreaus's affair?
How did they know that Ted Nugent had improperly tagged a kill during a hunting trip?
How did they come up with all of these stories about Mitt Romney?

The Obama Administration is spying on political opponents or anyone who just happens to piss him off at the moment. He thinks he can do anything he wants and get away with it. He doesn't believe the law applies to him.

It is hard to believe that some how that fact escaped the public discourse since when it was revealed it was originally done in secret, without a warrant.

Congress has been well aware of the program.

That's basically the conservative meme.

It's okay to have someone they approve of engage in this practice..but if they don't like the guy, it's bad.

Which is why, for the most part, their "arguments" are generally laughable at best.

I don't think its laughable at all.

After the jack lew thing I thought, there isn't any lower to go in the head in the sand hypocrite hole......wow, apparently its bottomless..........you and yes there are others simply cannot admit obama is a rank opportunist and hypocrite...you've turned yourselves into ( you were not like this when you got here) a sad sack of hack, pathetic really....

what it must be like for someone to prostitute their integrity on a friggin message board for a political figure....its a pathology all its own, some weak ego, a dollop of poor self image, some perhaps deep seated insecurities ......jesus what a basket of fail......

 

[Trajan]

So back to the OP. If they can't find Snowden does that mean that the US Government is now at the mercy of Snowden's mercy?

*shrugs* maybe....he could be loaded with all sorts of interesting tidbits....



bring it on!!!!!!

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

He is. Tonight!

 

[AmazonTania]

I find it very interesting that those who are bashing Snowden seem to prefer that American people are left in the dark about intrusive, destructive and unconstitutional government programs.

 

[Sallow]

It is hard to believe that some how that fact escaped the public discourse since when it was revealed it was originally done in secret, without a warrant.

Congress has been well aware of the program.

That's basically the conservative meme.

It's okay to have someone they approve of engage in this practice..but if they don't like the guy, it's bad.

Which is why, for the most part, their "arguments" are generally laughable at best.

I don't think its laughable at all.

After the jack lew thing I thought, there isn't any lower to go in the head in the sand hypocrite hole......wow, apparently its bottomless..........you and yes there are others simply cannot admit obama is a rank opportunist and hypocrite...you've turned yourselves into ( you were not like this when you got here) a sad sack of hack, pathetic really....

what it must be like for someone to prostitute their integrity on a friggin message board for a political figure....its a pathology all its own, some weak ego, a dollop of poor self image, some perhaps deep seated insecurities ......jesus what a basket of fail......

How do you suss out a hypocrite?

Call him a hypocrite, then watch him try to engage in either verbal gymnastics that will inevitably prove out what you said..or watch him engage in insults.

Cheers.

You went for number 2.

With a pinch of number 1.

 

[Sallow]

I find it very interesting that those who are bashing Snowden seem to prefer that American people are left in the dark about intrusive, destructive and unconstitutional government programs.

That mean you think Manning's a hero as well?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

So do I. I think Snowden was doing something honorable and for people who have made the most noise about intrusive govt like Rep Peter King? I'm floored! He wants Snowden to be treated as a criminal and brought to justice? How is that? I'm thinking the hypocrisy is off the charts here.

-Jeri

 

[AmazonTania]

I find it very interesting that those who are bashing Snowden seem to prefer that American people are left in the dark about intrusive, destructive and unconstitutional government programs.

That mean you think Manning's a hero as well?

They can't both be heroes. Not when this thread puts them against one another.

 

[mudwhistle]

We already knew about the NSA data mining program.

What the current administration is doing is much, much more extensive and intrusive, and there is probable cause to believe the information gathered has been used against political opponents, political advocates, journalists, Supreme Court justices, the list goes on and on.

I wonder how they found out about the details of Gen. Petreaus's affair?
How did they know that Ted Nugent had improperly tagged a kill during a hunting trip?
How did they come up with all of these stories about Mitt Romney?

The Obama Administration is spying on political opponents or anyone who just happens to piss him off at the moment. He thinks he can do anything he wants and get away with it. He doesn't believe the law applies to him.

It is hard to believe that some how that fact escaped the public discourse since when it was revealed it was originally done in secret, without a warrant.

Congress has been well aware of the program.

That's basically the conservative meme.

It's okay to have someone they approve of engage in this practice..but if they don't like the guy, it's bad.

Which is why, for the most part, their "arguments" are generally laughable at best.

Oh, I didn't know Bush used data-mining to rig an electión or used the IRS to attack 501c applicants.

I thought Bush only lied about WMDs. Maybe Bush set Obama up with all of these scandals. He made sure Obama had the technology and the authority and then he forced Obama to take it even further, spying on everyone instead of terrorist suspects.

Huh. Learn somethin new every day.

 

[mudwhistle]

I find it very interesting that those who are bashing Snowden seem to prefer that American people are left in the dark about intrusive, destructive and unconstitutional government programs.

That mean you think Manning's a hero as well?

It's tough for a rational person to equate what Manning did with what Snowden did.

 

[Lakhota]

John Boehner: Edward Snowden Is A 'Traitor'