So, this is what passes for leadership, now?

[Borillar]

So, the party that was not invited to the table, not included in the crafting process

Why be shocked. The ACA was passed without the Republicans voices being heard. This is the way of our country now. Whoever is in at the moment totally ignores the other side. We don't have cooperation or compromise, only two sides demanding their way or the highway.

That's a flat out lie. 160 amendments that had been offered by Republicans were added to the ACA. You guys keep wanting to pretend that Republicans didn't get to have any input on the ACA, but the reality is that the bill was on the floor, and debated for weeks, with hundreds of amendments proposed, and voted on. And then, after being given the opportunity to amend the bill the way Republicans wanted, they still said, "Yeah. We got to have input, but fuck you. We're still not gonna vote for it,"

Your piece of shit bill, on the other hand, was crafted behind closed doors, with no input from Democrats at all, and was being brought to the floor with zero debate, and no offer of amendment readings. So, this was nothing like what happened with ACA.

If it takes 160 amendments and they still couldn't vote for it, do you know what that is called? That's damage control on a sinking ship! We know it is going down, but we are trying to keep it afloat as long as possible before it blows up in our faces!

I call it loading the bill down with as much crap as they could in order to cripple it from the onset. Would have been better if they stripped out all the repug amendments and then passed it.

 

[Czernobog]

Oh, I think he's always lying. It's what progressives do.

He is an absolute idiot, no honesty whatsoever. If he can handle something, he makes up crap and rolls from there. No debating or conversing with such dishonest individuals.

That's rich, coming from you...

Dishonest coming from you.

Says the guy who just got caught calling someone a liar, for posting a true statement...well...an honest opinion, anyway. I mean I have no proof that you are delusional. After all, you might not actually believe the bullshit you're spewing. In which case you wouldn't be delusional, you'd just be a liar.

You didn't post a true statement, you posted a misleading statement based off of some stupid random thought of your. I expect it from you.

So, you didn't say that we were getting by just fine before Obamacare? Because I'll be happy to like to the post where you did.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

Free market competition and anti-trust enforcement brings costs down without having to apply counterproductive, expensive gov control.

First of all, who do you think enforces anti-trust laws? THE GOVERNMENT, STUPID! Secondly, there is no free market for health care because insurance companies prevent you from choosing any doctor you want. In order to see a doctor you have to first buy insurance, and then you get to pick your doctor from those in your insurance network. So how is that free market? That's the system you want, by the way, which is not free market at all. Wouldn't it make more sense to pick your doctor first and have a single entity handle the reimbursement for everyone? Why does it matter to you that a private company does that administration? Don't understand what your obsession with that is. How does government reimbursing your doctor instead of Aetna doing it change anything about how your health care is delivered? It doesn't. It's just administration.

The gov's job is to protect the people, not provide for or direct.
Before litigation forced the advent of HMO's, people would apply insurance coverage to their doctor and not vice-versa.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

That's not control...
the government controls many facets of health care.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

You left out the caveat of this first world country being inundated by 3rd world immigrants and socialist sloth. The socialists' solution is to create more socialism. That figures.

What's painfully obvious is you have no fucking idea what socialism is...you don't even know what health insurance is. Why are you even posting? Is this just a Russian Active Measure? What's your deal?

Try responding to my post with points and logic.

You have no points and you definitely have no logic.

You don't want "government control", but you have no problem with insurance companies skimming 20% of your insurance premium and then demanding copays, when you try to use the coverage which you purchased. Or demanding that your doctor get their permission for tests or treatments in advance.

Let's put this another way. Have you ever seen a country with single payer health insurance voting for "repeal and replace"? Or complaining about copays, and paperwork? That's because single payer works. It's cheaper and provides better care across the board.

We didn't use to have copays.
Your frame of reference is beyond free market. You have no perspective. That's a result of conditioning.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

What I said was for the past 8 years we've had gov-run healthcare and for the preceding 240 we didn't. My error was only in the 240 math. It should have read 230.

And you would still be wrong because government doesn't run health care. The only government doctors that there are work directly for the VA and state government employees for government hospitals, all other doctors are private and work for medical groups, private practices, or wherever. You don't seem to know the first thing of which you speak. That's sad.

When government mandates that health care providers MUST do certain things or risk punishment....what is that called again

If you're implying what I think you are, what are you bitching about? The government has been mandating what health providers (emergency rooms) can, and cannot do since Reagan. So, we already have government run health, by your standards. This was just an expansion of what we already have.

You need to go before the 80's.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

No one stopped any of them from acquiring their own insurance. It's about priorities and personal responsibility. Are the rest of us supposed to be their mother? I don't remember that part in the constitution.

The thing stopping them was the price tag. People couldn't afford it, hence 48 million uninsured prior to Obamacare, in the system into which you want to regress. Why? You don't even know. Well, I think you do know subconsciously...it's all about "winning" and Obamacare represents the pinacle of Conservative losing. The fact that you shitheads screamed for repeal for 7 fucking years, and couldn't even produce a viable plan in all that time lets everyone know how intellectually dishonest and devoid you are. Fuck off.

Then you fix the problem that makes it cost-prohibitive. Making it more expensive through added gov overhead does not fix the problem.

Actually that's not the problem. We actually had a method built into the ACA to help with the added expense to the insurance companies - they were rick corridors. Unfortunately, Marco Rubio recognised that this function was the most useful, and beneficial feature of the ACA. So, of course, one of the first things he did, was ram through a law that completely broke it. That is what led to most of what is currently wrong with the ACA. Fix that, and you would be surprised how much of a difference it would make.

You're conditioned. You seem to believe gov involvement is inevitable. The gov needs to be removed from health insurance entirely.

 

[Papageorgio]

He is an absolute idiot, no honesty whatsoever. If he can handle something, he makes up crap and rolls from there. No debating or conversing with such dishonest individuals.

That's rich, coming from you...

Dishonest coming from you.

Says the guy who just got caught calling someone a liar, for posting a true statement...well...an honest opinion, anyway. I mean I have no proof that you are delusional. After all, you might not actually believe the bullshit you're spewing. In which case you wouldn't be delusional, you'd just be a liar.

You didn't post a true statement, you posted a misleading statement based off of some stupid random thought of your. I expect it from you.

So, you didn't say that we were getting by just fine before Obamacare? Because I'll be happy to like to the post where you did.

So you didn't say "I'm glad it don't live there"?

How was anyone to know the context you dishonest nutjob? And when I asked for clarification, you didn't clarify yourself again! You are a dumb dishonest person. Now, do you have anything new to really add?

 

[The Derp]

The point is it wasn't nationwide. For costs to be driven down the entire nation must be able to benefit from the laws.

Since health care is largely a states-rights thing, Tort reform in Texas has nothing to do with health care costs in Pennsylvania. So try again and explain why states that passed strict tort reform laws saw their health care costs rise faster than states that didn't?

 

[The Derp]

I never said I didn't have insurance, please quote where I said that?

Are you fucking serious? Right here:

I used to bargain with my doctors and they cut me breaks because I didn't go through insurance companies.

It's specifically that above that makes no sense. I think you're lying about it. Never heard of any doctor's office taking chickens for health care. And besides, who do you think pays for the generous "discount" you say you got? You think the doctor's office takes a loss on that because...because...they like you personally? Get real.

I did negotiate with the doctor, I had a catastrophic plan, it only covered me if I was hospitalized. It didn't cover doctor visits, it didn't cover anything unless I was hospitalized. Have you never heard of those plans?

I have, but those plans have high deductibles and barely cover anything. Your narrative makes no sense in the realities of the health care system. And besides which, even if this were true, who then eats the cost of the discount your doctor gave you because you're such good friends (?) with them? Did you just think those costs vanished?

 

[The Derp]

Can you not understand, you said "death panels" so where are they or were you being overly dramatic?

Death panel = panel of people determining who doesn't get health care and dies. Republican-controlled state legislatures determined who could get Medicaid and dies. So Republican-controlled state legislatures = death panel.

Now you're just being intellectually dishonest and lazy because you don't want to admit you're wrong and I'm right. Typical. Get over yourself.

 

[The Derp]

He can make that claim all he likes, I smell bullshit. Either that, or he lives in Bumblefuck, ID, where the population is 150, and his doctor is the country doctor for the next three counties.

Ever notice how whenever Conservatives debate, they always use unverified personal anecdotes as a substitute for facts? Like suddenly their argument has credibility because they say they personally experienced something. It's such bullshit. Can't believe people still buy it.

 

[The Derp]

You're conditioned. You seem to believe gov involvement is inevitable. The gov needs to be removed from health insurance entirely.

It is inevitable. You cannot have private insurance profits while guaranteeing universal coverage. The two are diametrically opposed.

 

[Papageorgio]

I never said I didn't have insurance, please quote where I said that?

Are you fucking serious? Right here:

I used to bargain with my doctors and they cut me breaks because I didn't go through insurance companies.

It's specifically that above that makes no sense. I think you're lying about it. Never heard of any doctor's office taking chickens for health care. And besides, who do you think pays for the generous "discount" you say you got? You think the doctor's office takes a loss on that because...because...they like you personally? Get real.

I did negotiate with the doctor, I had a catastrophic plan, it only covered me if I was hospitalized. It didn't cover doctor visits, it didn't cover anything unless I was hospitalized. Have you never heard of those plans?

I have, but those plans have high deductibles and barely cover anything. Your narrative makes no sense in the realities of the health care system. And besides which, even if this were true, who then eats the cost of the discount your doctor gave you because you're such good friends (?) with them? Did you just think those costs vanished?

This was before Obamacare, I didn't use insurance for doctor visits, nowhere did I say I didn't have insurance. I never said I paid with chickens, shit head. The doctor didn't have to bill an insurance company and got money that day instead of waiting 60-90 days. Just because you never heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Now, quote me where I said I had no insurance. I said, "I didn't use insurance for office visits."

Ever buy a car with cash? There is a discount if you pay cash. People don't like to wait to get paid.

I wasn't good friends with the doctor.

Please comprehend what is posted and take off your blinders.

 

[The Derp]

And as we have seen with the NHS in the UK government controlled healthcare sucks.

Really? According to whom? Some of these imaginary people you talk to? LOL. Britain's NIH has a higher satisfaction than our system does, and Britain's health metrics are better than ours (life expectancy, cost-per-patient, infant mortality). Britain also ranks higher than we do in the WHO's world rankings, in the CIA factbook's world rankings, and in the UN's world rankings. Margaret Thatcher, famed Conservative, was kept alive for years thanks to Britain's health care system, much the same way people like McCain are being kept alive by government-provided healthcare, specifically Medicare and Obamacare.

Not only does it suck, but it sucks in a really, really, bad way. Your problem is you only look at what they tell you. You never look beyond to what actually happens.

Ah, so you have some special insight no one else has, including those who actually use the system. What a fucking liar.

 

[The Derp]

Fix what? Rip off the young to pay for the old? That doesn't sound fair. i thought you were all about fairness?

What do you think health insurance is, you stupid idiot? Yes, healthier people "pay for" sicker ones. Then when those healthy people grow older and become sick, younger, healthier people then pay for them. It's the concept of insurance you don't really seem familiar with which begs the question; if you don't know anything about this subject, then why the fuck are you posting????

 

[The Derp]

Most don't do that anymore

I'd say outside of maybe extremely rural, deserted areas of the country, no doctors do that. And even then, I don't believe it. State-run hospitals are usually the source of health care for those who live in those areas. The reason is because it's not profitable for a private insurer to administrate because the pool of premiums is limited by the number of people in the area. I think you're making shit up about yourself, even as you walk back your broadly stupid comments and invented personal circumstances from earlier. Conservatives do that a lot; when their argument reaches its very limited end, suddenly all these personal sceanrios and circumstances just happen to validate the things you say that the facts don't. So we are forced to take your word for it. My question is; *why* should I take your word for it?

I paid him less money for not billing the insurance, I paid cash, he didn't have to bill an insurance company and you are right it doesn't happen anymore, it was a major city and it was a doctor who was a stand alone, not many of them anymore. Lots of doctors used to do that. It was three years ago, and I don't give a shit if you believe it or not, you are from third world hell hole.

No one should believe it because it sounds made up, you've offered nothing to prove it's true, and we're left to take your word for it. Why should I take your fucking word for it when you haven't been honest about anything so far? Like I'm supposed to believe you're being honest now? Har dee har har. Good one.

 

[The Derp]

Exactly! My cardiac surgeon would have been "paid" over 20K for my surgery if it were handled by the insurance company. But, he agreed to a cash payment of 4,800 bucks simply because the paper work was greatly reduced. And for him it was worth it.

Bullshit. Don't believe it at all. So you're telling me that the cost of surgery was inflated by nearly $15,000 because of private insurance administration costs? So then, doesn't that make the case for single payer if administrative costs for private insurers to reimburse providers inflates the price by 200%????

You guys are making this way too easy for me.

 

[The Derp]

You need a staff to bill and keep track of the insurance billing, it is expensive and arduous work, and then you get caught between the patient and the insurance company not wanting to pay. Lots of expense and adds to the cost of healthcare.

Exactly! So let's get everyone onto the same insurance plan and have only one entity do the administration nationwide. Wouldn't that save costs? Why do you not support that?

 

[The Derp]

Uh...I'm from Arizona. I wasn't aware that the US was a "third world hell hole"...

Well, to be fair...Arizona does kinda suck.