So, this is what passes for leadership, now?

[The Derp]

We all do. Who is going to pay for single payer? ALL of us.

OK so what's the fucking problem then? Think about what we are talking about; the mechanism by which your health care is paid. That's it. Nothing else. A single entity that does the reimbursing, has no profit motive to account for, will result in lower costs. Which is why all single payer nations spend half as much as a % of GDP per patient than we do.

So square that circle with your bullshit.

 

[Dragonlady]

What I said was for the past 8 years we've had gov-run healthcare and for the preceding 240 we didn't. My error was only in the 240 math. It should have read 230.

And you would still be wrong because government doesn't run health care. The only government doctors that there are work directly for the VA and state government employees for government hospitals, all other doctors are private and work for medical groups, private practices, or wherever. You don't seem to know the first thing of which you speak. That's sad.

The gov is forcing health coverage under threat of fine. That is control.

That's not control. I live in a single payer country and that gives me freedom, even though the government controls many facets of health care.

I have freedom to choose my doctor, my hospital, my pharmacist and most aspects of my care. I don't control the price.

Most Canadian doctors are in private practice. They can choose where they live and practice, how large or small their practice is, how many additional staff they employ, how many patients they serve, what and how many hours they work. They can't choose the price they charge and they cannot extra bill.

 

[Papageorgio]

How am I lying when i present factual information? Climb down off of your high horse and learn something.

Because you deliberately misrepresented it. You made it sound like charity can make up for the poverty gap. Has it ever before? No. So why would it start now?

Where hell did I say anything about charity? I didn't deliberately misrepresent anything. I said "I used to have", right in the first time I mentioned it. I think you have me confused with someone else. I have never said people should rely on charity. I rely on myself. I negotiated prices, I did it, not the insurance company.

 

[The Derp]

You seem to think that government stealing money from people and giving it to other people is a system that will work.

Spare me your hysterics and melodrama, you big 'ol drama queen. The only thing I'm proposing socializing is the entity that reimburses your doctor. To this day, not one of you troglodytes has been able to make the case that a private company can reimburse a doctor better than Medicare.

Care to point to a single place on Earth, at any time where there was not poverty?

Again, a Conservative moving the goalposts. Your original point, before I crushed with with reality, was that charity can fill the void if we got rid of Medicaid. That's obviously a joke, as Medicaid's yearly budget is more than all charitable giving in the USA combined.

You talk and talk and talk, but say nothing. How is that possible?

 

[Papageorgio]

Where are these death panels? I'd like to visit one and see how they operate.

They are the Republican-controlled State Legislatures that refused to expand Medicaid. Why? Because they're assholes and want people to die.

My word aren't you the drama queen, again, where are these death panels you speak of?

 

[The Derp]

I said "I used to have", right in the first time I mentioned it. I think you have me confused with someone else. I have never said people should rely on charity. I rely on myself. I negotiated prices, I did it, not the insurance company.

I dopn't believe you. Your whole narrative is bullshit. You say you didn't have insurance, then you did, then you didn't, now you did again, but you negotiated with the doctor aside from the insurer? How'd that work? Seriously, I think you're just lying about yourself to lend your argument credibility it doesn't otherwise have.

 

[westwall]

We all do. Who is going to pay for single payer? ALL of us.

OK so what's the fucking problem then? Think about what we are talking about; the mechanism by which your health care is paid. That's it. Nothing else. A single entity that does the reimbursing, has no profit motive to account for, will result in lower costs. Which is why all single payer nations spend half as much as a % of GDP per patient than we do.

So square that circle with your bullshit.

How about this novel thought. A person USES their own money to pay for their OWN doctors visit. No intervening entity taking money off of the top to pay for itself and its staff. Holy cow batman. What a novel concept!

Here's the deal super duper genius, if you really wanted to lower health care costs you would control the trial lawyers who have singlehandedly driven up health care costs by over 100% due to their bullshit litigation practices that make them hundreds of millions of dollars, and which drives up OUR costs accordingly. Furthermore if you allowed people to buy health insurance across State lines the cost would drop.

That is how you lower the health care costs. Not by being a asshole, like yourself, trying to bully anyone who disagree's with you.

Grow the fuck up junior.

 

[The Derp]

My word aren't you the drama queen, again, where are these death panels you speak of?

Can you not fucking read? They are the Republican-controlled State Legislatures that refused to expand Medicaid.

 

[The Derp]

How about this novel thought. A person USES their own money to pay for their OWN doctors visit.

I don't know about you, but I don't have half a million dollars lying around in case I get cancer. Are you for real? Are you some Conservative policy researcher who has to cobble together bullshit for whatever Conservative fraudster to work for? Man, you must fucking hate yourself on a daily basis. How can you live with yourself making such intellectually devoid and dishonest arguments? Because these are not novel arguments, they're stupid ones that we already had 7 years ago. Catch up with the rest of 2010, goober.

No intervening entity taking money off of the top to pay for itself and its staff. Holy cow batman. What a novel concept! Here's the deal super duper genius, if you really wanted to lower health care costs you would control the trial lawyers who have singlehandedly driven up health care costs by over 100% due to their bullshit litigation practices that make them hundreds of millions of dollars,m and which drives up OUR costs accordingly. Furthermore if you allowed people to buy health insurance across State lines the cost would drop.

So as usual, your thought is not informed by anything other than bullshit. Texas and Florida both passed strict tort reform laws and both states saw their health care costs rise faster than the national average during Bush the Dumber.

So square that circle with your bullshit.

 

[The Derp]

The gov is forcing health coverage under threat of fine. That is control.

LOL! So that's a lot different than government controlling health care, as you claimed. So you've moved the goalposts at least three times now on your original stupid claim. Why not just give up at this point? What are you trying to prove? Don't get it.

 

[The Derp]

Then you fix the problem that makes it cost-prohibitive. Making it more expensive through added gov overhead does not fix the problem.

No, no. YOU'RE THE ONES who said we had to repeal Obamacare. YOU'RE THE ONES who predicted all this doom and gloom that never came to fruition. YOU'RE THE ONES who continue to lie about the bill, it's proponents, and its accomplishments because you're a bunch of insecure turds who have long overstayed their welcome in the general political discourse.

Government overhead is LESS than private insurance overhead, and I'll prove it to you now:

Here is the budget for Aetna. Notice how their general administrative costs are 17% of their entire budget?

Here is the budget for Medicare. Notice how their adminstrative costs are 1% of the entire budget?

So which is less? 1% or 17%?

Why is it that everything you say is wrong?

 

[westwall]

How about this novel thought. A person USES their own money to pay for their OWN doctors visit.

I don't know about you, but I don't have half a million dollars lying around in case I get cancer. Are you for real? Are you some Conservative policy researcher who has to cobble together bullshit for whatever Conservative fraudster to work for? Man, you must fucking hate yourself on a daily basis. How can you live with yourself making such intellectually devoid and dishonest arguments? Because these are not novel arguments, they're stupid ones that we already had 7 years ago. Catch up with the rest of 2010, goober.

No intervening entity taking money off of the top to pay for itself and its staff. Holy cow batman. What a novel concept! Here's the deal super duper genius, if you really wanted to lower health care costs you would control the trial lawyers who have singlehandedly driven up health care costs by over 100% due to their bullshit litigation practices that make them hundreds of millions of dollars,m and which drives up OUR costs accordingly. Furthermore if you allowed people to buy health insurance across State lines the cost would drop.

So as usual, your thought is not informed by anything other than bullshit. Texas and Florida both passed strict tort reform laws and both states saw their health care costs rise faster than the national average during Bush the Dumber.

So square that circle with your bullshit.

The point is it wasn't nationwide. For costs to be driven down the entire nation must be able to benefit from the laws.

 

[Papageorgio]

I said "I used to have", right in the first time I mentioned it. I think you have me confused with someone else. I have never said people should rely on charity. I rely on myself. I negotiated prices, I did it, not the insurance company.

I dopn't believe you. Your whole narrative is bullshit. You say you didn't have insurance, then you did, then you didn't, now you did again, but you negotiated with the doctor aside from the insurer? How'd that work? Seriously, I think you're just lying about yourself to lend your argument credibility it doesn't otherwise have.

I never said I didn't have insurance, please quote where I said that? I did negotiate with the doctor, I had a catastrophic plan, it only covered me if I was hospitalized. It didn't cover doctor visits, it didn't cover anything unless I was hospitalized. Have you never heard of those plans? So, you are the one that is a moron and can't comprehend simple English, put up where I said I had no insurance in fact check other threads, I always liked catastrophic, it insured me good pricing with the added protection if something major put me in the hospital for a long time.

 

[Papageorgio]

My word aren't you the drama queen, again, where are these death panels you speak of?

Can you not fucking read? They are the Republican-controlled State Legislatures that refused to expand Medicaid.

Can you not understand, you said "death panels" so where are they or were you being overly dramatic?

 

[BuckToothMoron]

Point one:
With only a very small majority, the Republicans in the House & Senate need more victories next year since Dems totally obstruct, no votes!

We were let down by all of the Democrats and a few Republicans. Most Republicans were loyal, terrific & worked really hard. We will return!


Source: Trump's own Twitter account
DEMOCRATS?!?!?! Really??? So, the party that was not invited to the table, not included in the crafting process, were not allowed even the privilege of discussing the bill is the group of people who are responsible for the failure of this Republican boondoggle?!?! This is an example of Trump "Leadership"?!?! "Pass the Buck"? Where was the White House? Where was the leadership? Where was the President telling Congress what he wanted, and making sure it happened? Why is it that for the last eight years, whenever the Congress failed to accomplish something, everyone on the right was all over the place screaming about "lack of leadership from the White House", but now that your guy is in the office, the buck stops at Congress?

Point 2:
"I think we're probably in that position where we'll just let Obamacare fail. We're not gonna own it. I'm not gonna own it," Trump told reporters. "We'll let Obamacare fail and then Democrats are going to come to us."
Source: Trump says he plans to 'let Obamacare fail'
A couple of problems with that attitude. First, that's easy to say for the guy who has three more fucking years to let American forget about this massive clusterfuck. In the meanwhile, Senators, and Representatives have to go back home, and try to get re-elected behind this shit, in a year-and-a-half. And if Trump thinks those congresspersons won't be held accountable - with a Republican Led House, a Republican led Senate, and a Republican in the White House overseeing it all - for their failure to fix the problems of Obamacare, then Trump is delusional.

Second, Democrats have been coming to Republicans calling for Obamacare to be fixed!
“Rather than repeating the same failed, partisan process yet again, Republicans should work with Democrats on a bill that lowers premiums, provides long term stability to the markets and improves our healthcare system.”

The Problem is that there has been no political incentive - either for Trump, or Congressional Republicans - to do this. They have ran for the last 6 years on repealing Obamacare. So, what possible incentive could they have to work with Democrats? I find it ironic that, after everyone kept complaining about the "lack leadership" of Obama, when he had a hostile Republican Congress only interested in obstruction, yet, no one is questioning the leadership skills of Trump, when he can't get dick done with a friendly Republican Congress!!!

There is plenty of blame to go around, but in my view the majority of it falls right on top of Mitch McConnell's turtle head. He can't get his own party in line to even bring a vote. That's not on the orange clown.

 

[Czernobog]

Dumbass. It's not over yet. You support its passage. The only one who is not very smart is the fucktard that supports passage of a measure that would throw 38 million Americans off health insurance.

I want it repealed asshole! I want it over, no one was denied healthcare at the hospital before and no one is denied now. And now your figure is 38 and not 42? Make up your mind.

Wow...you know what? You are an idiot. If you think that emergent care equals healthcare, then I cannot help you. Have a good day.

Those who cannot afford insurance now will not be able to afford insurance in the future, so what did the ACA accomplish? All it did was spending tax dollars and charging people for insurance they cannot afford to use.

That's it exactly, $2000 deductibles, $450 a month policy, then you have co-pays. I never reach my deductibles.

$5000 a year for health insurance plus deductibles and copays is insanity.

I have no copay, except $2 for a prescription, and no deductible. But then I live in a single payer country.

I dunno. I'm only paying a little over 3 grand a year ($281/month), with $2,000 deductible. However, that deductible does not include doctor visits. I have a 0 copay on doctor visits, even emergency room visits. I have no personal layout until I hit actual procedures. So, yeah. My insurance actually works for me, and I got it through the exchange that Papageorgio wants to go away. I also have a heart condition, so I'm one of those that he would like to see unable to get coverage due to "pre-existing conditions".

 

[Czernobog]

When I had major medical it only kicked in when I was hospitalized. I used to have it, not now, not under our current plan.

So you did have an insurance plan, then...it was just a catastrophic one. Why do you think what happened to you is what happens to everyone else? Do you think we are all created in your image?

I'm particularly interested in the "...I used to bargain with my doctors..." bit. I'd love to know where he lives. I have lived in major cities for the last 20 years, and I can't remember the last time I saw a doctor who was willing to work for a pot of stew, and a couple of chickens. In the real world, doctors don't do that anymore. In fact, most doctors can't do that anymore, as they are part of a larger practice, have office managers, and billing departments, and are not allowed, by the bylaws of their practice, to make exceptions on the office fees. After all, can you imagine the legal world of shit a doctor would be if I learned that I was being charged $150 per visit, because my doctor knew "my insurance would cover it", while only charging you 10 bucks a visit?

He can make that claim all he likes, I smell bullshit. Either that, or he lives in Bumblefuck, ID, where the population is 150, and his doctor is the country doctor for the next three counties.

 

[Dragonlady]

You left out the caveat of this first world country being inundated by 3rd world immigrants and socialist sloth. The socialists' solution is to create more socialism. That figures.

What's painfully obvious is you have no fucking idea what socialism is...you don't even know what health insurance is. Why are you even posting? Is this just a Russian Active Measure? What's your deal?

Try responding to my post with points and logic.

You have no points and you definitely have no logic.

You don't want "government control", but you have no problem with insurance companies skimming 20% of your insurance premium and then demanding copays, when you try to use the coverage which you purchased. Or demanding that your doctor get their permission for tests or treatments in advance.

Let's put this another way. Have you ever seen a country with single payer health insurance voting for "repeal and replace"? Or complaining about copays, and paperwork? That's because single payer works. It's cheaper and provides better care across the board.

 

[BuckToothMoron]

I want it repealed asshole! I want it over, no one was denied healthcare at the hospital before and no one is denied now. And now your figure is 38 and not 42? Make up your mind.

Wow...you know what? You are an idiot. If you think that emergent care equals healthcare, then I cannot help you. Have a good day.

Those who cannot afford insurance now will not be able to afford insurance in the future, so what did the ACA accomplish? All it did was spending tax dollars and charging people for insurance they cannot afford to use.

That's it exactly, $2000 deductibles, $450 a month policy, then you have co-pays. I never reach my deductibles.

$5000 a year for health insurance plus deductibles and copays is insanity.

I have no copay, except $2 for a prescription, and no deductible. But then I live in a single payer country.

I dunno. I'm only paying a little over 3 grand a year ($281/month), with $2,000 deductible. However, that deductible does not include doctor visits. I have a 0 copay on doctor visits, even emergency room visits. I have no personal layout until I hit actual procedures. So, yeah. My insurance actually works for me, and I got it through the exchange that Papageorgio wants to go away. I also have a heart condition, so I'm one of those that he would like to see unable to get coverage due to "pre-existing conditions".

Sounds like you fall into the sweet spot. One or more conditions like pre existing condition or low income. Your welcome, now I will get back to work so I can keep paying for your coverage.

 

[Czernobog]

What I said was for the past 8 years we've had gov-run healthcare and for the preceding 240 we didn't. My error was only in the 240 math. It should have read 230.

And you would still be wrong because government doesn't run health care. The only government doctors that there are work directly for the VA and state government employees for government hospitals, all other doctors are private and work for medical groups, private practices, or wherever. You don't seem to know the first thing of which you speak. That's sad.

When government mandates that health care providers MUST do certain things or risk punishment....what is that called again

If you're implying what I think you are, what are you bitching about? The government has been mandating what health providers (emergency rooms) can, and cannot do since Reagan. So, we already have government run health, by your standards. This was just an expansion of what we already have.