So What Do You Think Is A Fair And Decent Wage?...

[gallantwarrior]

That's only gonna create more poverty. And you the Taxpayer will have to pay for that. More unemployed Americans isn't the solution. So, Automation might be good for large Corporations, but it will be very bad for American Workers and Taxpayers.

Technology marches on.

In every age there are those who decry the demise of the buggy whip makers, and claim this is the end of all.

Automation in general has been a boon for small business, allowing small concerns to compete with corporations.

Of course small business is free of unions - which means you have no way of getting others to fund your pension.

Automation isn't the solution. It's just another blow to American Workers. What will we do with the added Unemployed? Someone has to pay for that. And that someone is you the Taxpayer. So yes, some businesses may do well with Automation, but American Workers and Taxpayers will take a big hit.

No, you've got it all wrong! Automation is supposed to liberate the workers so they can pursue more aesthetic interests, becoming famous artists, musicians, actors.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Automation isn't the solution. It's just another blow to American Workers. What will we do with the added Unemployed? Someone has to pay for that. And that someone is you the Taxpayer. So yes, some businesses may do well with Automation, but American Workers and Taxpayers will take a big hit.

BS. No one has to pay for that. Just because we are living in an entitlement society does not mean we need to agree with it. You want to fix America, kill the hand-out programs. Let's go back to a free market society where liberty is king and it's ok for teens to work low wage jobs to get some experience & pocket money while they are in HS.

Not gonna happen. Entitlements are here to stay. Too many Citizens now depend on them. And adding more Unemployed to the Economy isn't the solution. But the bigger problem is that wages continue to decrease while the cost of living continues to increase. That's the current reality we're dealing with. And with Amnesty on the way, wages will sink even further. It's a real problem that our Nation is gonna have to confront at some point. The Helots are growing restless. The future does not look very bright.

Then too many citizens can starve if they fail to learn to support themselves. Just because "too many citizens" are dependent on public hand-outs does not mean they must be continued. At some point, too many ticks will kill the hound. When that happens, the ticks die too.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Entry level salary for a teacher is 35k around here. That's 17.50 an hour. Why study for 4years to get a minimum wage job?

I'm getting around $30/hr as a adjunct university professor. I'm thinking that's not shabby to do a job I love, teaching. But I have been doing it almost 14 years now, too.

 

[nitroz]

$8.25 minimum


Also, flat rate taxes locked at 2% for state and 5% for federal for everyone.
Another problem is people paying too much tax when they are making too little and we can't rely on the wealthy for our taxes.

 

[paulitician]

BS. No one has to pay for that. Just because we are living in an entitlement society does not mean we need to agree with it. You want to fix America, kill the hand-out programs. Let's go back to a free market society where liberty is king and it's ok for teens to work low wage jobs to get some experience & pocket money while they are in HS.

Not gonna happen. Entitlements are here to stay. Too many Citizens now depend on them. And adding more Unemployed to the Economy isn't the solution. But the bigger problem is that wages continue to decrease while the cost of living continues to increase. That's the current reality we're dealing with. And with Amnesty on the way, wages will sink even further. It's a real problem that our Nation is gonna have to confront at some point. The Helots are growing restless. The future does not look very bright.

Then too many citizens can starve if they fail to learn to support themselves. Just because "too many citizens" are dependent on public hand-outs does not mean they must be continued. At some point, too many ticks will kill the hound. When that happens, the ticks die too.

I'm just dealing in reality. Entitlements aren't going away. More Unemployed Citizens will only increase dependence on them. We want our Citizens working and making a survivable living. Happy & prosperous Workers will benefit us all in the long run.

 

[RKMBrown]

Not gonna happen. Entitlements are here to stay. Too many Citizens now depend on them. And adding more Unemployed to the Economy isn't the solution. But the bigger problem is that wages continue to decrease while the cost of living continues to increase. That's the current reality we're dealing with. And with Amnesty on the way, wages will sink even further. It's a real problem that our Nation is gonna have to confront at some point. The Helots are growing restless. The future does not look very bright.

Then too many citizens can starve if they fail to learn to support themselves. Just because "too many citizens" are dependent on public hand-outs does not mean they must be continued. At some point, too many ticks will kill the hound. When that happens, the ticks die too.

I'm just dealing in reality. Entitlements aren't going away. More Unemployed Citizens will only increase dependence on them. We want our Citizens working and making a survivable living. Happy & prosperous Workers will benefit us all in the long run.

Then why do you insist on forcing millions out of work by forcing owners to pay exorbitant sums for what used to be a first part time job of a high school kid?

 

[paulitician]

"And in the eyes of the hungry there is a growing wrath. In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage."

WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE..


Your Communist revolution really is going to happen this time...

Really!

Or maybe you can just shit on some more police cars..

I'm not a Communist. But i do believe American Workers should get organized and fight back. Better Wages, Overtime Pay, Sick Pay, 40hr Work-Weeks etc. etc. were achieved only by standing up and fighting. No one just handed Workers those concessions out of the goodness of their hearts. The Workers fought and even risked their lives to get those concessions. And it's very sad so many American Workers today, take those monumental achievements for granted. Those achievements didn't happen by way of magic. They were vicious hard-fought victories. Incredible sacrifices were made.

And now, here we are again. The Nation has gone backwards. The American Worker has been backed into a corner. They've been abused for so many years. So now it's time to stand up and fight again. Until that happens, the abuse will continue. It's just not enough to complain. You have to actually do something. American Workers can achieve significant gains. But they'll have to organize. That's what American Workers did in the past. It can be done. But it's gonna take a whole lot of sacrifice. I guess we'll see if today's American Workers can muster the strength to fight. Time will tell.

 

[Mac1958]

I'm just dealing in reality. Entitlements aren't going away. More Unemployed Citizens will only increase dependence on them. We want our Citizens working and making a survivable living. Happy & prosperous Workers will benefit us all in the long run.

Then why do you insist on forcing millions out of work by forcing owners to pay exorbitant sums for what used to be a first part time job of a high school kid?

And what, precisely, is stopping these people from doing what millions and millions and millions of people have done and are doing, improve their own lives?

Two perfectly reasonable questions.

.

 

[RKMBrown]

I'm just dealing in reality. Entitlements aren't going away. More Unemployed Citizens will only increase dependence on them. We want our Citizens working and making a survivable living. Happy & prosperous Workers will benefit us all in the long run.

Then why do you insist on forcing millions out of work by forcing owners to pay exorbitant sums for what used to be a first part time job of a high school kid?

And what, precisely, is stopping these people from doing what millions and millions and millions of people have done and are doing, improve their own lives?

Two perfectly reasonable questions.

.

These are the same people who argue no kid should be given an F, and everyone should be given a college education, and everyone should be given health care, and everyone should be given a roof over their head, and everyone should be given food, and everyone should have their guns taken from them lest they commit suicide, and everyone should be forced to fork over their assets for redistribution by the collective. What they never understand is that their version of nirvana is force us all to live like slaves.

 

[paulitician]

Then too many citizens can starve if they fail to learn to support themselves. Just because "too many citizens" are dependent on public hand-outs does not mean they must be continued. At some point, too many ticks will kill the hound. When that happens, the ticks die too.

I'm just dealing in reality. Entitlements aren't going away. More Unemployed Citizens will only increase dependence on them. We want our Citizens working and making a survivable living. Happy & prosperous Workers will benefit us all in the long run.

Then why do you insist on forcing millions out of work by forcing owners to pay exorbitant sums for what used to be a first part time job of a high school kid?

"used to be" is the key phrase in your statement. I'm dealing with the here & now. And i'm just curious, what would you consider an 'exorbitant sum?' I think we can have a better discussion if we start from there.

 

[Foxfyre]

<bump>

Any direct, clear, straightforward answers yet?

You can even assume that it's something less than $15 if that makes it easier for you. The questions remain the same.

.

I have found such questions that require true critical thought are generally ignored at USMB. But hope still springs eternal, yes?

There was an interesting article in Forbes awhile back that focused on that very question. What would a Big Mac cost if the starting wage at McDonalds was $15 with comparative increases for those making more than $15/hour. One student at Kansas U? K-State? Can't remember had calculated the cost of a Big Mac would be a $1 and change higher, but his calculations were soundly disputed by others.

The Forbes writer postulated that the cost probably would not go up much, if at all, as McDonalds would simply automate more and lay off a bunch of people they now hire. For sure it would affect McDonald's overall business plan and strategy.

The bottom line is that a minimum wage higher than the value of the worker's labor to the employer is going to hurt workers who won't get hired far more than it will affect anybody else. And a fair and decent wage is what earns a decent profit for the employer after the costs of paying the worker.

It all depends on individual scenarios.
In some areas, fire one too many people and those having to wait in line too long, and who have to get back to work, will go to the fast food place a few doors down.
A business with too few/many workers is inefficient in the first place.
There are always cost cutting measures that don't reflect in timely service, such as passing those losses off to a vendor.

But we aren't talking about that were we. We were talking about McDonalds finding a way to serve their customers with far less people. It is already happening in many places in which local minimum wages are higher than McDonalds can feasibly pay without taking a serious financial hit. See the active thread re McDonalds going to touch screens for customers to use to order and thereby eliminate at least one paid position.

There are two kinds of people in these debates. Those who are capable of considering a concept and seeing the big picture. And those who cannot do that.

There are some who would focus on the indefensible or downside of the industrial revolution in the 19th century and early 20th century before the big government era, and there are those who are able to see the whole picture in which most people did not work in abysmal conditions but could achieve great prosperity for themselves as well as what has evolved from it. There are those who can see only negatives (slavery, mini-theocracies, lack of women's rights etc.) in the early decades of the United States, and there are those who can see the whole picture, appreciate that those theocracies dissolved themselves, and we evolved into a nation in which the descendants of those same slaves and in which women enjoy great liberty and unlimited opportunity. At least until the government began suppressing that liberty and opportunity.

There are some who can look only at the people who wouldn't be able to support themselves on a McDonalds starting wage and demand that this be corrected. And there are those who appreciate that a low starting wage is better than no wage, and nobody has to stay in that low wage forever.

There are some who demand that people be paid a certain 'fair and decent' wage whether or not they earn that wage for their employer. And there are those who see how such a policy would be destructive overall and actually limit the opportunities available for everybody.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Not gonna happen. Entitlements are here to stay. Too many Citizens now depend on them. And adding more Unemployed to the Economy isn't the solution. But the bigger problem is that wages continue to decrease while the cost of living continues to increase. That's the current reality we're dealing with. And with Amnesty on the way, wages will sink even further. It's a real problem that our Nation is gonna have to confront at some point. The Helots are growing restless. The future does not look very bright.

Then too many citizens can starve if they fail to learn to support themselves. Just because "too many citizens" are dependent on public hand-outs does not mean they must be continued. At some point, too many ticks will kill the hound. When that happens, the ticks die too.

I'm just dealing in reality. Entitlements aren't going away. More Unemployed Citizens will only increase dependence on them. We want our Citizens working and making a survivable living. Happy & prosperous Workers will benefit us all in the long run.

I agree about happy & prosperous workers. But entitlements will go away when there are too few citizens to be tapped to pay for them. Eventually, the well will run dry. When they've killed the golden goose in order to feed the "starving masses", there will be no more gold to pay entitlements.

 

[gallantwarrior]

"And in the eyes of the hungry there is a growing wrath. In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage."

WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE..


Your Communist revolution really is going to happen this time...

Really!

Or maybe you can just shit on some more police cars..

I'm not a Communist. But i do believe American Workers should get organized and fight back. Better Wages, Overtime Pay, Sick Pay, 40hr Work-Weeks etc. etc. were achieved only by standing up and fighting. No one just handed Workers those concessions out of the goodness of their hearts. The Workers fought and even risked their lives to get those concessions. And it's very sad so many American Workers today, take those monumental achievements for granted. Those achievements didn't happen by way of magic. They were vicious hard-fought victories. Incredible sacrifices were made.

And now, here we are again. The Nation has gone backwards. The American Worker has been backed into a corner. They've been abused for so many years. So now it's time to stand up and fight again. Until that happens, the abuse will continue. It's just not enough to complain. You have to actually do something. American Workers can achieve significant gains. But they'll have to organize. That's what American Workers did in the past. It can be done. But it's gonna take a whole lot of sacrifice. I guess we'll see if today's American Workers can muster the strength to fight. Time will tell.

I see a flaw in your plan...as long as there is an entitlement alternative to working, when the idea of working at all is so abhorrent to the "workers", you will never persuade them to unite and rise up to fight. Why should they fight to eat when they are satisfied with being fed?

 

[paulitician]

Then too many citizens can starve if they fail to learn to support themselves. Just because "too many citizens" are dependent on public hand-outs does not mean they must be continued. At some point, too many ticks will kill the hound. When that happens, the ticks die too.

I'm just dealing in reality. Entitlements aren't going away. More Unemployed Citizens will only increase dependence on them. We want our Citizens working and making a survivable living. Happy & prosperous Workers will benefit us all in the long run.

I agree about happy & prosperous workers. But entitlements will go away when there are too few citizens to be tapped to pay for them. Eventually, the well will run dry. When they've killed the golden goose in order to feed the "starving masses", there will be no more gold to pay entitlements.

I actually agree with you for the most part on that. A Collapse is likely coming. But it could be prevented. We just have to treat our fellow Americans better. Greed and Hate are destroying our Nation. It's not what Jesus taught us. But i think we can agree, a Collapse is likely coming.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm just dealing in reality. Entitlements aren't going away. More Unemployed Citizens will only increase dependence on them. We want our Citizens working and making a survivable living. Happy & prosperous Workers will benefit us all in the long run.

I agree about happy & prosperous workers. But entitlements will go away when there are too few citizens to be tapped to pay for them. Eventually, the well will run dry. When they've killed the golden goose in order to feed the "starving masses", there will be no more gold to pay entitlements.

I actually agree with you for the most part on that. A Collapse is likely coming. But it could be prevented. We just have to treat our fellow Americans better. Greed and Hate are destroying our Nation. It's not what Jesus taught us. But i think we can agree, a Collapse is likely coming.

But what is 'treating our fellow Americans better?'

Is it removing obstacles that hinder them being able to help themselves and reach for the American dream?

Or is it throwing more and more money at the problems as the only remedy, and continue doing that for decades after it becomes obvious it is having little positive effect and a lot of negative consequences?

 

[gallantwarrior]

I'm just dealing in reality. Entitlements aren't going away. More Unemployed Citizens will only increase dependence on them. We want our Citizens working and making a survivable living. Happy & prosperous Workers will benefit us all in the long run.

I agree about happy & prosperous workers. But entitlements will go away when there are too few citizens to be tapped to pay for them. Eventually, the well will run dry. When they've killed the golden goose in order to feed the "starving masses", there will be no more gold to pay entitlements.

I actually agree with you for the most part on that. A Collapse is likely coming. But it could be prevented. We just have to treat our fellow Americans better. Greed and Hate are destroying our Nation. It's not what Jesus taught us. But i think we can agree, a Collapse is likely coming.

And one of the most disgusting aspects to this situation is the fact that our own government, using the media, is working overtime to foster greed and hate among the populace. They use slogans as tools. "Income equality", "war on women", "1%-ers vs. The 99%". We are being pitted one against the other without mercy. What I'd like to see is for people to wake up and stand united against this insidious attack on us. "We're mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!"

 

[gallantwarrior]

I agree about happy & prosperous workers. But entitlements will go away when there are too few citizens to be tapped to pay for them. Eventually, the well will run dry. When they've killed the golden goose in order to feed the "starving masses", there will be no more gold to pay entitlements.

I actually agree with you for the most part on that. A Collapse is likely coming. But it could be prevented. We just have to treat our fellow Americans better. Greed and Hate are destroying our Nation. It's not what Jesus taught us. But i think we can agree, a Collapse is likely coming.

But what is 'treating our fellow Americans better?'

Is it removing obstacles that hinder them being able to help themselves and reach for the American dream?

Or is it throwing more and more money at the problems as the only remedy, and continue doing that for decades after it becomes obvious it is having little positive effect and a lot of negative consequences?

You see, we have come to equate money with happiness, success, as a measure of one's absolute worth. Too many have come to see that the net value of a person's soul is exactly equal to the net value of their bank balance. It is unacceptable in today's world, to be happy and satisfied with your life unless you are making top dollar. This value inversion is pervasive and saturates almost every aspect of our lives.
Why throw more money at a problem, you ask? Because only money is a solution. Even those who lay claim to having only the most altruistic intentions strive to take the wealth of those who have it in order to provide that wealth to those who do not.
As a society, we have sold our souls, and with that loss, we have also lost our humanity.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I'm not a Communist.

Correction, you're not educated.

But you DO spew Communist propaganda.

But i do believe American Workers should get organized and fight back.

Against whom?

Quick, raise your hand if you're working at a job where you did not agree to accept the wage offered?

Anyone?

Better Wages, Overtime Pay, Sick Pay, 40hr Work-Weeks etc. etc. were achieved only by standing up and fighting.

What 40 hour work week? And according to you Union types, wages are below slavery.

No one just handed Workers those concessions out of the goodness of their hearts. The Workers fought and even risked their lives to get those concessions. And it's very sad so many American Workers today, take those monumental achievements for granted. Those achievements didn't happen by way of magic. They were vicious hard-fought victories. Incredible sacrifices were made.

Overtime laws were legislative, won through the political process. Putting fast food workers out of jobs in an attempt to feed union greed had nothing to do with it.

And now, here we are again. The Nation has gone backwards. The American Worker has been backed into a corner.

You mean, you're union is not solvent, the parasites have killed the host and you need to loot a new host to feed your greed. You see Walmart and fast food as juicy targets and are drooling over the prospect of looting them.

They've been abused for so many years. So now it's time to stand up and fight again. Until that happens, the abuse will continue. It's just not enough to complain. You have to actually do something. American Workers can achieve significant gains. But they'll have to organize. That's what American Workers did in the past. It can be done. But it's gonna take a whole lot of sacrifice. I guess we'll see if today's American Workers can muster the strength to fight. Time will tell.

Da Comrade!

 

[hunarcy]

.

And here's another question, not that I expect anyone to give me a (heaven forbid) straight answer:

So voters - er, employees who are making $7.50 an hour go to $15.00. Okay.

What about all the people above them, the more experienced and skilled workers, and managers, who were making $9.00 and $10.00 and $12.00 and $14.00 and $15.00, we'll have to move them up accordingly too, would that be correct? Since we doubled wages at the bottom, and because there were other wages that were above theirs but also below the mythical "living wage", we have no freakin' choice.

And then we'll have to worry about those who are currently paid just above THOSE wages, but let's keep it real simple for now.

See, this is the kind of question that will immediately pop to mind for anyone who has any understanding of rudimentary business economics whatsoever, I mean painfully obvious stuff, so let's hit it. I trust you have thought this through, and that you'll be able to clear this up for me post haste. No doubt you have created a formula for this, perhaps you could just post that.

Please confirm and provide any potential negative ramifications if you can think of any, thanks. Knock this one out of the park for us.

.

Those jobs you reference that are $9 or $10 or $11 an hour etc will become a minimum wage job again and those who had earned raises will have to begin again.

 

[Foxfyre]

I actually agree with you for the most part on that. A Collapse is likely coming. But it could be prevented. We just have to treat our fellow Americans better. Greed and Hate are destroying our Nation. It's not what Jesus taught us. But i think we can agree, a Collapse is likely coming.

But what is 'treating our fellow Americans better?'

Is it removing obstacles that hinder them being able to help themselves and reach for the American dream?

Or is it throwing more and more money at the problems as the only remedy, and continue doing that for decades after it becomes obvious it is having little positive effect and a lot of negative consequences?

You see, we have come to equate money with happiness, success, as a measure of one's absolute worth. Too many have come to see that the net value of a person's soul is exactly equal to the net value of their bank balance. It is unacceptable in today's world, to be happy and satisfied with your life unless you are making top dollar. This value inversion is pervasive and saturates almost every aspect of our lives.
Why throw more money at a problem, you ask? Because only money is a solution. Even those who lay claim to having only the most altruistic intentions strive to take the wealth of those who have it in order to provide that wealth to those who do not.
As a society, we have sold our souls, and with that loss, we have also lost our humanity.

Well, I'm not quite THAT pessimistic. But I do strongly empathise and relate to the concept you are expressing here. My mother was not the ideal mother and was a contributor to our very dysfunctional and destructive family. But she did have some redeeming qualities for which I will ever be grateful. For some time she would help me out when I got myself in a financial jam and I fell into a pattern of expecting it. And then one day she said "no". She cut off the emergency loan fund.

What happened? Well, we really went through a really tough time for awhile. A few weeks of hocking anything of value and subsisting on oatmeal and pinto beans (then 15 cents a pound) because we couldn't afford anything else. But it changed our attitude and rearranged what we deemed was really important. We managed our limited funds much more wisely after that and we never again needed an 'emergency loan' for groceries or to keep the lights on. We didn't count on anything or anybody but ourselves and our self esteem came up and we were proud of ourselves when we did what we needed to do to survive. And then excel. And then succeed.

My Mom's tough love was real love. It was the best thing she could have done for me. For the most part we hurt people when we make them comfortable in poverty.