Zone1 Sola scriptura (Scripture alone [is all that's needed]) is demolished with one sentence

[hadit]

Saul did seek answers/direction from God, but God was silent. He was desperate and he thought the only way he could get to Samuel was through a medium. That is where he made his mistake. No medium needed, and no need for Samuel to rise up out of the ground. (If, in fact, he did--not just the medium claiming he did.)

Again, Saul sought wisdom from Samuel when God wanted him to seek wisdom from God. For that he was condemned.

Do you believe the Kingdom of God can be entered to in this life? I know God has blessed praying for those who have passed on and asking those who have passed on for prayers and to pray with us. By definition, prayer is to God. The other point I find interesting is that while you are go to scripture searching for reasons not to pray with/for the Body of Christ, I simply went to God and asked Him. Decades ago.

You are amiss when you claim I look for reasons not to pray with/for the body of Christ. Disabuse yourself of that nonsense. I see no reason to pray for and ask for favors from dead ancestors. They are either with Christ or are not with Christ and I don't expect them to be paying attention to what I want from God.

A prayer...If praying for those who have passed on is a prayer that can be powerful once in Your hands, send me. And God has. Several times.

I do not seek validation from God for things that are frowned upon in Scripture or that have no Scriptural validation. Praying to anyone or anything other than God Himself is one of those things.

Even before Christ Jews prayed for the purification of one who had passed on. Praying for those who had passed on was also a practice of early Christianity in both the Catholic and Orthodox Church. Jews and Christians prayed for the purification of the dead. Sixteen hundred years later, Protestants threw out this practice along with practicing some of the Sacraments Catholics and Orthodox practice to this day. Protestants also threw out books of the Bible, one of which speaks of final purification, which became known as purging/purgatory. Keep in mind that purgatory is a "place" isn't doctrine; the doctrine is simply that of final purification after death.

Praying for purification for the Universal Church (Body of Christ) is not something Catholic/Orthodox/Jews decided to begin. It was thousands of years practice that Protestants decided to eliminate.

I've posted the Scripture that states you die, then the judgement.

 

[Limits Obelisque]

.

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

How can everything the Roman Catholic Faith System teaches as Oral - Tradition be defined in what St. Paul was commanding to the church of the Thessalonians ?

HOW DO CATHOLICS KNOW WHAT ST. PAUL WAS COMMANING when he wrote a single letter to the church of the Thessalonians ?

he was commanding them to WITHDRAW FROM DOING SPECIFIC UNMENTIONED THINGS - : DISORDERLY AND SIINFUL THINGS -

then - after telling them to stop being DISORDERLY - he then writes to remind them to follow the good and proper - TRADITIONS

Paul is not creating a Roman Catholic institution of oral tradition

why would other churches take it upon themselves and imagine or invent and claim spiritual inspiration and insight as to what “” TRADITIONS “” that St. Paul had given to the church of the Thessalonians as he rebuked and corrected them from sin and DISORDERLY conduct.

These Traditions are being mentioned because St. Paul physically went himself - to the literal church of the Thessalonians - there, to these specific people he presented a specific set of traditions appropriated for them specifically in Thessalonia concerning DISORDERLY SIN and Perversity - in this specific church

☞ . . . We have no idea what "" DISORDERLY conduct "" that was being done in the church of the Thessalonians to cause Paul to write reminding them of the specific and exact corrective traditions

the Catholic Faith demands that the Authors of Scripture were inspired to NOT include Roman Catholicism in the scriptures and instead the Holy Spirit inspired these Authors to STOP writing the bible and then to precede to begin making secret oral relationships with selected individuals about the Catholic Faith System - to a few selected individual

all based upon one single passage from scripture where St. Paul is writing a Church to remind them to adhere to the TRADITIONS of abstaining and staying away from the disorderly

the tradition is expressly concerning - a withdrawal from every brother that walketh disorderly.
this is what the " tradition " precisely is explained as being about / concerning

how is the entire concept of Catholic Oral Tradition orbiting and wrapped up in this one single passage addressing disorderly and immoral conduct in one single church where St. Paul personally visited them and taught the how to properly conduct in a orderly manner ?

 

[Limits Obelisque]

this is completely taken out of context and completely ignoring what the chapter is expressing

instead, Catholics concentrate upon half of a single verse or three or four words and completely invent a teaching that has nothing to do with anything that the passage is truly expressing.

St. Paul is visiting a Church and noticing the Church is CO MINGLING and JOINING other people who are very disorderly

Paul then corrects them concerning this and then leaves the Church. Then Paul writes them a letter reminding them to withdraw themselves from every brother who is disorderly, to withdraw themselves from everyone whom does not walk and live after the tradition they received.


concerning all who are disorderly

suddenly this is meaning that Paul is inventing ORAL TRADITONS about the Catholic Faith System that is found nowhere on a single page of the Bible ?

 

[hadit]

this is completely taken out of context and completely ignoring what the chapter is expressing

instead, Catholics concentrate upon half of a single verse or three or four words and completely invent a teaching that has nothing to do with anything that the passage is truly expressing.

St. Paul is visiting a Church and noticing the Church is CO MINGLING and JOINING other people who are very disorderly

Paul then corrects them concerning this and then leaves the Church. Then Paul writes them a letter reminding them to withdraw themselves from every brother who is disorderly, to withdraw themselves from everyone whom does not walk and live after the tradition they received.


concerning all who are disorderly

suddenly this is meaning that Paul is inventing ORAL TRADITONS about the Catholic Faith System that is found nowhere on a single page of the Bible ?

When understanding Biblical Scripture, context is extremely important, and when someone takes a single verse or a portion of a verse and attempts to build a complete orthodoxy on it without considering the rest of the passage, who's writing it and what they're attempting to communicate, there's a problem.

 

[Cougarbear]

Poor nomdaic5..........you can change your name but not the way you post.

 

[Zebra]

If Jesus wanted us to go be Scripture alone, which He didn't, He would not have had to come to Earth since the only Scripture available in the days when Christ walked the Earth were

in the OLD Testament.

deems logical!

 

[1miseryindex]

It doesn't. Clever people cherry pick scripture and make compelling and false arguments to make it appear that it does. Jesus was clear when he told us not to judge by appearances.

I got what you were saying until that last sentence. Why bring up "appearances"? I don't get it..

 

[1miseryindex]

Dude, you're a cultist.

like I give a flying rat's ass what the defector thinks

not

 

[1miseryindex]

deems logical!

you mean SEEMS, right?

What protestants don't realize (or admit to) is that the Bible was only wholly put together in the 15th century after the printing press was invented (1440). Until then, only priests and maybe only bishops, actually, had a copy of the Bible. Handwritten Bibles take a long time to transcribe and glue together or however they did it back then.

 

[1miseryindex]

The beauty of being able to ignore scripture is that one can make up anything they like. For instance---

The beauty of being able to interpret scripture for yourself is that you can make up anything you like! For instance, we have Once Saved Always Saved, NOT found in Scripture but hey, we can all interpret the Bible now--- don't have to wait on that stodgy old priest at the corner Catholic Church to instruct us on what it means, even though he has 8 years of college education and seminary and others don't.. Now, thanks to Luther we can all be popes and bishops and priests! Once Saved always Saved rules Catholic teaching to the contrary! Awesome!

 

[1miseryindex]

Why not go with a translation of the Codex Alexandrinus? It's the oldest complete Bible and you don't need to go from Greek to English through Latin.

I check out my resources carefully. Since I've never heard of that, I am not in a big hurry to check it out and believe its every word.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

I check out my resources carefully. Since I've never heard of that, I am not in a big hurry to check it out and believe its every word.

If you check out your resources carefully then I'm surprised that you haven't heard of it. It's not like it's some kind of recent discovery.

 

[hadit]

The beauty of being able to interpret scripture for yourself is that you can make up anything you like! For instance, we have Once Saved Always Saved, NOT found in Scripture but hey, we can all interpret the Bible now--- don't have to wait on that stodgy old priest at the corner Catholic Church to instruct us on what it means, even though he has 8 years of college education and seminary and others don't.. Now, thanks to Luther we can all be popes and bishops and priests! Once Saved always Saved rules Catholic teaching to the contrary! Awesome!

We are a royal priesthood, and yes, we need access to read the Word ourselves. Thank you, Martin.

 

[1miseryindex]

If you check out your resources carefully then I'm surprised that you haven't heard of it. It's not like it's some kind of recent discovery.

last time I looked, I am not God (don't know everything)

According to Jesus, however, I am Jesus (an alter Christi, as the Church calls it), since He said that whatever someone does to me, 1m, that person does to Jesus, so that makes me virtually Jesus--along w/ anyone else who attempts to follow Him.

 

[1miseryindex]

We are a royal priesthood, and yes, we need access to read the Word ourselves. Thank you, Martin.

You did not write the Scriptures. That is why we need an infallible Interpreter thereof. Thank you, Jesus Christ and St Peter (first pope) and his successors (the true successors, that is)

 

[hadit]

You did not write the Scriptures. That is why we need an infallible Interpreter thereof. Thank you, Jesus Christ and St Peter (first pope) and his successors (the true successors, that is)

Incorrect. God's word is to be available to all for study, especially what Jesus had to say about it. I hate to break it to you, but nowhere in Scripture is found support for the idea that the Pope or any other single human is to be the sole interpreter of Scripture. That just puts one man in an impossible situation, with temptation virtually impossible to resist. You're following a man-made idea that was designed to give the Church unparalleled control over the lives of ordinary people.

Here's some Scripture for you. Pay attention especially to the first one.

Acts 17
10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more [d]fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Matthew 21
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

Luke 4
16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah

Now, in all of these cases, it is CLEARLY indicated that everyone is responsible to read the Scriptures or to hear them read so they know for themselves what they say. Now, since I have given you these, it is on you to provide Scriptures that prove we are not to read them for ourselves but wait for the Pope to interpret the Latin and tell us what HE thinks it says. In fact, we are supposed to know the Scriptures ourselves so we can know when someone is lying to us about them and avoid following them into apostasy.

 

[1miseryindex]

Incorrect. God's word is to be available to all for study, especially what Jesus had to say about it.

Incorrect. I did NOT say that people should not read the Bible. I read it, I hear it read to me at Mass. I have read the entire thing.

So since the rest of your post is addressing a straw man, I will move on.

 

[hadit]

Incorrect. I did NOT say that people should not read the Bible. I read it, I hear it read to me at Mass. I have read the entire thing.

So since the rest of your post is addressing a straw man, I will move on.

Why do you bother to read the Scriptures for yourself when you wait for someone else to interpret them for you?

You also failed to address the lack of Scriptural foundation for the idea that the Pope is to be the final interpreter of Scripture.

 

[Limits Obelisque]

.
The very concept of the phrase or quote "" Sola Scriptura / Scripture Alone ""'

this phrase is sometimes forgotten in that this phrase and concept originated in an environment where Protestant Reformers were attempting to show that the Roman Catholic Church teaching for " Catholic Sacred Tradition " was not comparable, not comparative or more important than the Holy Scriptures.

But I believe that we should look at the nature of how Roman Catholicism implemented its Sacred Oral Tradition as law of the land.


for example - John Wycliffe was declared a heretic by the Catholic Council of Constance in 1415

In 1427, Pope Martin ordered that John Wycliffe’s bones be exhumed from their grave, burned - and cast into the river Swift.

furthermore

The Papal Encyclical Exsurge Domine (1520) - given by Pope Leo X

given as ex cathedra and therefore to be infallible) demands that the saying and idea be under condemnation concerning the thesis that "the burning of heretics is against the Holy Spirit":

That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

In other words BURNING HERETIKS ALIVE does not need arguing and would be taken for granted by his audience--


According to Pope Leo X it is infallibly declared that "We restrain in all the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication that all the faithful of both sexes must regard as condemned, reprobated, and rejected the idea that the burning of an heretic is against the will of the Holy Spirit".

the burning of heretics is not against the will of the Holy Spirit

God is in favor of burning heretics

Also in this encyclical, there is a command to gather and publicly burn any and all works containing or promulgating any of these theses:

Moreover, because the preceding errors and many others are contained in the books or writings of Martin Luther, we likewise condemn, reprobate, and reject completely the books and all the writings and sermons of the said Martin, whether in Latin or any other language, containing the said errors or any one of them; and we wish them to be regarded as utterly condemned, reprobated, and rejected. We forbid each and every one of the faithful of either sex, in virtue of holy obedience and under the above penalties to be incurred automatically, to read, assert, preach, praise, print, publish, or defend them. They will incur these penalties if they presume to uphold them in any way, personally or through another or others, directly or indirectly, tacitly or explicitly, publicly or occultly, either in their own homes or in other public or private places. Indeed immediately after the publication of this letter these works, wherever they may be, shall be sought out carefully by the ordinaries and others [ecclesiastics and regulars], and under each and every one of the above penalties shall be burned publicly and solemnly in the presence of the clerics and people.

every Roman Catholic is specifically commanded NOT to believe - "that heretics should be burned is against the will of the Spirit" and disobedience incurs automatic major excommunication.

it is mandatory that all Catholics believe and support that the Holy Spirit commands that - - HERETIKS ARE TO BE BURNED ALIVE - their writings and property is also to be burned publicly

furthermore

the Fourth Lateran council of 1215

We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy that raises against the holy, orthodox and Catholic faith which we have above explained;

condemning all heretics under whatever names they may be known… Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the Faithful, so for the defense of the Faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church… If [a ruler] refuses to [comply] let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler’s vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith...

This is what the Protestant reformers were facing, it was the law that anything that conflicted with Oral Tradition was to be violently opposed by all of Catholic Europe.

 

[1miseryindex]

No, thanks. I'm not listening to YOUR words about Catholicism. And no Catholic in his right mind ever said that there are no skeletons in the Church's closet. But Protestants always act like there are NONE in theirs. So there's that. (I guess they don't remember Jim Bakker, Jim Jones....)

Also, Protestants NEVER (that I know of) bring up how VCatholic priests were persecuted, hunted down and killed after the "reformers" made it a crime to celebrate Mass

Nope, that's some history that, as per the liberals, needs to be ignored