Zone1 Sola scriptura (Scripture alone [is all that's needed]) is demolished with one sentence

[Meriweather]

What does God have to say about those who speak with the dead, aka mediums?

I am not a medium; nor have I ever been to one. Mediums say the speak for the dead. I do not. Let's not start calling a rose by some other name in a weak effort to denigrate.

 

[hadit]

We agree that scripture is a witness to God, right? Do you believe there have been no other witnesses, are not other witnesses, will be no other witnesses to God? Have you ever read any of the testimonies of actual people who are witnesses of how Mary helped them to seek God?

You don't have to believe them, you can close your mind, heart, and soul to them, but have you thought about at least giving them hearing?

I firmly believe that a witness who contradicts Scripture is not to be believed. A witness from God will agree with Scripture, and Scripture tells us to have nothing to do with those who speak with the dead, aka mediums.

 

[hadit]

I am not a medium; nor have I ever been to one. Mediums say the speak for the dead. I do not. Let's not start calling a rose by some other name in a weak effort to denigrate.

You say you communicate with the dead. That's a problem, according to Scripture. King Saul was condemned for doing so.

 

[Meriweather]

We are equal at the foot of the cross. We can all approach God's throne without hesitation and in Jesus' name because of His sacrifice. Peter has an exalted position close to Christ, I'm sure, because he was an obedient apostle, but he's every bit as human as I am. There is no reason or need to appeal to him when we can appeal directly to God.

You seem to be saying that when it comes to God, it is you and no one else. It's all about you, at least when it comes to your approach to God.

It's not doctrine, but there is an old Catholic saying, "You cannot go to heaven alone...you must take someone with you."

 

[hadit]

You seem to be saying that when it comes to God, it is you and no one else. It's all about you, at least when it comes to your approach to God.

It's not doctrine, but there is an old Catholic saying, "You cannot go to heaven alone...you must take someone with you."

Now you're wandering afield again. I am saying that my salvation is totally dependent on Jesus Christ, not me, not Mary, not Peter, no one else, and that I need no one else to carry my petitions and communications to God's heart, not Mary, not Peter, no one else, because God is in my heart and hears me before I even form the words.

That has nothing to do with Jesus' commandment to go throughout the entire world making disciples of all nations.

 

[Meriweather]

Okay, so she had a lamp that turned itself on and off. Does your friend know for sure it was being manipulated by her FIL, or could it be from another paranormal entity that was trying to pull her away from Scripture and truth? IOW, did she test the spirit or just blindly accept Catholic doctrine that it was her FIL?

Ah, the Twilight Zone! This lady had no belief that prayers for those who have passed on had any purpose. She heard testimony that had her questioning her conclusion. She simply acted on the idea that perhaps her father-in-law was trying to communicate with her and that he wanted prayers. So she acted. She prayed.

Who do you believe was 'manipulating' her to pray, and how did her praying for father-in-law benefit anyone else but her father-in-law? I am positive it is not scriptural that someone can "steal" someone else's prayer and then use it for their own benefit!

 

[Meriweather]

You say you communicate with the dead. That's a problem, according to Scripture. King Saul was condemned for doing so.

Are you talking about Samuel appearing to Saul? Hasn't it been generally accepted that God permitted this?

 

[Meriweather]

Now you're wandering afield again. I am saying that my salvation is totally dependent on Jesus Christ, not me, not Mary, not Peter, no one else, and that I need no one else to carry my petitions and communications to God's heart, not Mary, not Peter, no one else, because God is in my heart and hears me before I even form the words.

What does praying about an issue in our earthly life have to do with salvation? Catholics believe Christ redeemed the whole world and opened the Way of Salvation to all.

The Way of Salvation does not prevent people praying together or people asking for help with what is happening currently in his/her individual life.

 

[hadit]

Are you talking about Samuel appearing to Saul? Hasn't it been generally accepted that God permitted this?

1 Chronicles 10

13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had [d]committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. 14 But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

 

[hadit]

Ah, the Twilight Zone! This lady had no belief that prayers for those who have passed on had any purpose. She heard testimony that had her questioning her conclusion. She simply acted on the idea that perhaps her father-in-law was trying to communicate with her and that he wanted prayers. So she acted. She prayed.

Who do you believe was 'manipulating' her to pray, and how did her praying for father-in-law benefit anyone else but her father-in-law? I am positive it is not scriptural that someone can "steal" someone else's prayer and then use it for their own benefit!

Nope, not "using" her prayer in any way, leading her away from Scripture and truth. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that supports the idea that we are supposed to pray for or ask dead ancestors to do anything for us at all. Think of this, if we could actually effect the existences of dead ancestors through prayer, don't you think Jesus would have bothered to mention it? Something that important, such a radical departure from Scripture and all known ways that God deals with man, you'd think He would have said something. "Oh, BTW, when you're praying, don't forget to pray for your Father-in-law, because otherwise he's going to spend extra time in Purgatory until he figures things out. You can help get him out early on parole". No, Jesus said literally nothing, and the Law that he revered said nothing about it either. None of the early church Fathers said anything about it. Given all of that, why do you assume something that was so radically different and added long after the Church was founded has any authority at all?

Luke 16:

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

No mention of purgatory, no mention of even the idea that one's time can be cut short anywhere. In fact:

Hebrews 9:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

 

[hadit]

What does praying about an issue in our earthly life have to do with salvation? Catholics believe Christ redeemed the whole world and opened the Way of Salvation to all.

The Way of Salvation does not prevent people praying together or people asking for help with what is happening currently in his/her individual life.

And groups of Christians here on earth do exactly that, but Scripture offers precisely zero support for the idea that dead ancestors are even capable of hearing from millions of people simultaneously, much less commanded to do so.

 

[Meriweather]

1 Chronicles 10

13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had [d]committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. 14 But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

What about Saul and Samuel (who had passed on)?

 

[Meriweather]

And groups of Christians here on earth do exactly that, but Scripture offers precisely zero support for the idea that dead ancestors are even capable of hearing from millions of people simultaneously, much less commanded to do so.

You do understand I am not trying to convince you to pray, correct. If you wish to limit your prayers, then limit them to what you believe are the proper parameters. I am merely explaining why Catholics go beyond the limits you have set for yourself, and the blessings being given and received.

None of this involves mediums. It is prayer to God from each member (or community of members) of the Body of Christ.

 

[hadit]

What about Saul and Samuel (who had passed on)?

That verse is about Saul being condemned for consulting with Samuel through a medium instead of with God. Come on, you know this.

 

[hadit]

You do understand I am not trying to convince you to pray, correct. If you wish to limit your prayers, then limit them to what you believe are the proper parameters. I am merely explaining why Catholics go beyond the limits you have set for yourself, and the blessings being given and received.

None of this involves mediums. It is prayer to God from each member (or community of members) of the Body of Christ.

Limit? Hardly. On the contrary, we have no need to seek the help of someone is not listening to get our worship and petitions to God's ears. While I have shown you Scripture that condemns talking to the dead, you have given me zero support for the idea that dead ancestors are hanging around, waiting for millions of people to ask them to interject themselves between them and God. Here's the bottom line, those who were in Christ when they passed away are with Him now, rejoicing in His presence, not hooked up to God's switchboard taking calls that He can't handle. Do you think the Apostle Paul was expecting to handle millions of prayer requests daily when he said, 'For me to live is Christ and to die is gain"?

And, I'm still waiting for Scriptural backing for the idea that dead ancestors are hanging around waiting for someone to pray for them.

 

[Meriweather]

That verse is about Saul being condemned for consulting with Samuel through a medium instead of with God. Come on, you know this.

I am trying to get you to the place why mediums are forbidden--and the difference between consulting a medium and praying with any member of the Body of Christ.

First was Saul's spirit drawn up from the earth? Some say God permitted it. But what is the other explanation? This one explains why using mediums to convey messages to and from the dead is forbidden.

Note how it starts...the medium tells Saul what she saw, and this is precisely why mediums are forbidden. There is no way of knowing whether the medium is telling the truth.

In fact, Saul saw nothing. The medium told him she saw a man in a white robe and Saul jumped to the conclusion it was Samuel. Then Saul spoke to Samuel directly, not through the medium (or so it seems). What is interesting is that the medium doesn't seem to direct or relate anything in the conversation between Saul and Samuel. Odd? What say you?

The medium says she sees a man in a robe, but no one else does. Saul hears Samuel speak, but no one else seems to. Do you see that?

No medium draws forth or speaks for anyone from the Body of Christ. Stop trying to bring in something that simply isn't there. You may as well suggest it is a barking dog that somehow made its way into prayer.

 

[Meriweather]

While I have shown you Scripture that condemns talking to the dead

Scripture condemns mediums who were people who claimed to talk to the dead on the behalf of someone who paid them based on a claim. You are talking apples while I am describing an orange.

Bottom line: You do not want to--and you certainly do not have to--pray for those who have passed on, or ask those who have passed on to join you in any prayer.

 

[hadit]

Scripture condemns mediums who were people who claimed to talk to the dead on the behalf of someone who paid them based on a claim. You are talking apples while I am describing an orange.

Bottom line: You do not want to--and you certainly do not have to--pray for those who have passed on, or ask those who have passed on to join you in any prayer.

That is for several reasons.

1. Nowhere in Scripture do we find anything condoning the practice of speaking with the dead. In fact, those who traffic in such are condemned.
2. Nowhere in Scripture do we find anything commanding or even suggesting that we pray FOR the dead. In fact, you've ignored the Scripture that says it is appointed for man once to die, then the judgement, even though I've posted it several times.
3. Nowhere in Scripture do we find anything even suggesting that the dead are capable of hearing and deciphering millions of nearly simultaneous prayers all asking for different things, then being able to act on them. You post vague ideas that they might be supernaturally gifted to do so with absolutely no Scriptural evidence to support it.

 

[hadit]

I am trying to get you to the place why mediums are forbidden--and the difference between consulting a medium and praying with any member of the Body of Christ.

First was Saul's spirit drawn up from the earth? Some say God permitted it. But what is the other explanation? This one explains why using mediums to convey messages to and from the dead is forbidden.

Note how it starts...the medium tells Saul what she saw, and this is precisely why mediums are forbidden. There is no way of knowing whether the medium is telling the truth.

In fact, Saul saw nothing. The medium told him she saw a man in a white robe and Saul jumped to the conclusion it was Samuel. Then Saul spoke to Samuel directly, not through the medium (or so it seems). What is interesting is that the medium doesn't seem to direct or relate anything in the conversation between Saul and Samuel. Odd? What say you?

The medium says she sees a man in a robe, but no one else does. Saul hears Samuel speak, but no one else seems to. Do you see that?

No medium draws forth or speaks for anyone from the Body of Christ. Stop trying to bring in something that simply isn't there. You may as well suggest it is a barking dog that somehow made its way into prayer.

Yet Saul was condemned for seeking her out instead of, wait for it, seeking God directly. Don't you see the danger in what you are doing? You are messing around with beings other than God AFTER He set a way that we can approach Him directly. What an insult to God.

 

[Meriweather]

Yet Saul was condemned for seeking her out instead of, wait for it, seeking God directly. Don't you see the danger in what you are doing? You are messing around with beings other than God AFTER He set a way that we can approach Him directly. What an insult to God.

Saul did seek answers/direction from God, but God was silent. He was desperate and he thought the only way he could get to Samuel was through a medium. That is where he made his mistake. No medium needed, and no need for Samuel to rise up out of the ground. (If, in fact, he did--not just the medium claiming he did.)

Do you believe the Kingdom of God can be entered to in this life? I know God has blessed praying for those who have passed on and asking those who have passed on for prayers and to pray with us. By definition, prayer is to God. The other point I find interesting is that while you are go to scripture searching for reasons not to pray with/for the Body of Christ, I simply went to God and asked Him. Decades ago.

A prayer...If praying for those who have passed on is a prayer that can be powerful once in Your hands, send me. And God has. Several times.

Even before Christ Jews prayed for the purification of one who had passed on. Praying for those who had passed on was also a practice of early Christianity in both the Catholic and Orthodox Church. Jews and Christians prayed for the purification of the dead. Sixteen hundred years later, Protestants threw out this practice along with practicing some of the Sacraments Catholics and Orthodox practice to this day. Protestants also threw out books of the Bible, one of which speaks of final purification, which became known as purging/purgatory. Keep in mind that purgatory is a "place" isn't doctrine; the doctrine is simply that of final purification after death.

Praying for purification for the Universal Church (Body of Christ) is not something Catholic/Orthodox/Jews decided to begin. It was thousands of years practice that Protestants decided to eliminate.