Something people don't seem to get about why Jesus came into the world, what the Crucifixion means 4 us individually

[norwegen]

a lot of things are not mentioned in the Bible

Why read things into the Bible that aren't in it?

So much of modern Christianity is made up.

 

[rightnow909]

Why read things into the Bible that aren't in it?

So much of modern Christianity is made up.

how ironic

it is protestants who do that...

they claim to believe in the Bible and the Bible only

yet i have heard people c laim this or that is in there when it is not... or they twist the words so much... you know they are misinterpreting it

 

[norwegen]

how ironic

it is protestants who do that...

they claim to believe in the Bible and the Bible only

yet i have heard people c laim this or that is in there when it is not... or they twist the words so much... you know they are misinterpreting it

I don't know what's ironic about what I said. Protestants and Catholics both read into the Bible things that are not in it, such as the Papacy.

 

[rightnow909]

I don't know what's ironic about what I said. Protestants and Catholics both read into the Bible things that are not in it, such as the Papacy.

Catholics have Tradition on their side, which means the history of the Christian Church, the historical teachings... the saints.. etc.

We have 2000+ years of Christian tradition

protesters have about 500, assuming you can call the "reformation" Christianity, objectively speaking? (by the way Luther did not reform anything.. he abandoned the Original Church and started his own.. how arrogant)

Intelligent people like Scott Hahn want the Church that goes back to Christ and the 12

 

[Meriweather]

Intelligent people like Scott Hahn want the Church that goes back to Christ and the 12

We cannot go back. All we have is the present and the future. We need to go forward by focusing on the teachings of Christ and the Apostles--and apostolic traditions. (This is saying much the same thing, but differently.)

 

[rightnow909]

We cannot go back. All we have is the present and the future. We need to go forward by focusing on the teachings of Christ and the Apostles--and apostolic traditions. (This is saying much the same thing, but differently.)

I agree but I wasn't speaking of going back in any kind of way except that we should study the history of the Church. Those who cannot remember (or don't care about) the past... u know the rest

condemned to repeat it...

we are already retro-gressing... it's looking like hte last days of the Roman empire... (sports rules... fake news... )

 

[ninja007]

no, you don't get Catholics at all, not surprisingly... used to this

sigh

Purgatory iss supported by the Bible... it's just that most protestants don't SEE it.. Scott Hahn saw it... He had to study a long time but he finally began to understand Catholic teaching. I suggest others do as he did.. Otherwise, they cannot have an intelligent conversation about this... bc they do not know what they are talking about.

Purgatory is not punishment but purgation. Yes, it hurts in the lower levels... that is why we need to follow Christ diligently in THIS life...

This post was originally published in July 2018. –ed.

Let’s be clear from the outset: The Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory is taught nowhere in Scripture. It was invented to accommodate Catholicism’s denial of justification by faith alone. And it offers false hope to millions who anticipate ample time beyond the grave—perhaps eons, if necessary—to achieve their own justification.

Scripture very clearly teaches that an absolutely perfect righteousness is necessary for entry into heaven. Jesus said, “I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). He then added, “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48)—thus setting the standard as high as it can possibly be set.

The Only Way to Heaven

Later in His ministry, when the rich young ruler approached Jesus to ask how he might enter heaven, Jesus upheld this same standard of absolute perfection. He began by challenging the clear implication that the young man hoped he could attain a sufficient goodness of his own to merit heaven: “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good” (Matthew 19:17). Notice: Jesus did not disclaim that He Himself was sinlessly perfect (a common misinterpretation of this passage). He was simply pointing out plainly that the standard of perfection required to earn heaven is impossible for fallen creatures.

Because the young man was undeterred by this, however, Jesus told him that to obtain eternal life, he must have a track record of perfect obedience to the law (Matthew 19:17-22). Again and again, Jesus made the required standard of righteousness impossibly high for all who would seek to earn God’s favor on their own.

The young ruler clearly did not understand or acknowledge his own sinfulness. He assured Jesus that he had indeed kept the law from his youth up (v. 20).

Jesus subtly pointed out the young man’s covetousness (v. 21), which was a violation of the tenth commandment. From the outset of His conversation with the young man, the Lord was prodding him to confess that no one but God Himself is truly good. But the rich young ruler was unwilling to face his own sinfulness, and so he went away without salvation.

The disciples marveled at this. The young man was evidently—from a human perspective—one of the most righteous individuals they’d encountered. Notice that no one disputed his claim that he had obeyed the law. That suggests there were no overt sins in his life that anyone could point to. He seemed the best of men. So the disciples were floored when he walked away with no assurance of eternal life from Jesus. In fact, Jesus told them, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” (Matthew 19:23-24).

There’s no mistaking Jesus’ point. He was setting the standard at an impossible height. He was saying that the most fastidious legal observance is not enough. The most flawless external righteousness is not enough. All the worldly advantages of wealth are of no help. Only absolute perfection is acceptable to God. Our Lord kept underscoring these truths because He wanted people to see the utter futility of trying to earn righteousness by any system of works.

The disciples got the message. They asked, “Then who can be saved?” (Matthew 19:25).

And Jesus replied, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).

Accepted By Imputation

We know from Paul’s treatise on justification in Romans 4 that God saves believers by imputing to them the merit of Christ’s perfect righteousness—by no means because of their own righteousness. God accepts believers “in Christ.” He clothes them with the perfect righteousness of Christ. He declares them perfectly righteous because of Christ. Their sins have been imputed to Christ, who has paid the full penalty. His righteousness is now imputed to them and—through His imputed righteousness—they receive His full merit. That is what justification by faith means. The Father “made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

In other words, God does not first make us perfect, then accept us on that basis. He first legally justifies us by imputing to us an alien righteousness, then perfects us by conforming us to the image of Christ. He “justifies the ungodly” (Romans 4:5).

Paul wrote, “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). Those verses describe our justification as something already accomplished—a completed reality, not something we are striving for. Jesus Himself described justification as an immediate event when He told how the repentant publican was saved after begging God for mercy: “I tell you, this man went to his house justified” (Luke 18:14).

Scripture clearly and consistently attests to justification as a settled fact for every believer; it is not an ongoing process. We stand before God in faith right now, fully acceptable to Him because of Christ’s righteousness—not because of any doings of our own.

False Doctrine and False Hope

Roman Catholic doctrine denies all of that. Catholicism teaches that justification is an ongoing process that depends on the degree of real, personal righteousness we achieve. According to Rome, Christ’s merit imputed to us is not enough to save; we must earn more merit of our own through the sacraments and other good works. Righteousness is infused into us (rather than being imputed to us). But it is obvious that we are not perfectly righteous by any practical measure. So the righteousness we obtain by grace must be perfected by our own efforts.

According to Catholic teaching, this real, personal righteousness that resides in us is the necessary ground on which God accepts us. And our justification is not complete until we are really and completely perfect—by an inherent righteousness, not merely by a legally imputed righteousness. This actually reverses the biblical order, suggesting that we must first be perfected, and only then is our justification complete. In other words, in Roman Catholic doctrine, God does not justify the ungodly.

The Catholic view of justification poses an obvious dilemma. We know too well that even the best Christians fall far short of perfection. No one (Catholic teaching actually says almost no one) achieves absolute perfection in this life. And if our own perfection is a prerequisite for heaven, it would seem no one could enter there immediately upon dying. Any remaining imperfections would need to be worked out first.

The invention of purgatory was necessary to solve this dilemma. Deny that we are justified by faith alone, and you must devise an explanation of how we can make the transition from our imperfect state in this life to the perfect state of heaven. Purgatory is where Roman Catholics believe most people go after death to be finally purged of their remaining guilt and gain whatever merit they may be lacking to enter heaven. Catholicism teaches that this process involves intense pain and suffering.

Oddly enough, although Catholic doctrine denies that the imputed righteousness of Christ is sufficient to save sinners in this life, it does allow the imputation of righteousness from living sinners to those in purgatory. This is why masses are said for the dead. Supposedly the righteousness earned by way of the sacrament is imputed to the person in purgatory, which shortens his or her stay there.

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory offers false hope to people hoping to atone for their own sins on the other side of the grave. Rome’s warped and perverted view of justification will undoubtedly usher into eternal torment many who expected to have more time to achieve perfection.

 

[GreatestIam]

most people know that Jesus died on a cross the save us from our sins

I question your count.

Few will argue that Jesus would break the law he preached on this.

Every time I talk to Christians on this, they run away from the moral issues, which I read as agreement.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

The storyline keeps you thinking in circles and downward spirals.

If only we would all think alike it would be a much easier life - wouldn't it???

Not boring? ---- is what I ask those who think they crave immortality and follow an evil version of the Christian God to get it.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

To teach. To show us how to love. To fulfil the Law for the Jews. To graft Gentiles into the blessings of Abraham, and the Jews.
He saved us from our sin by exchanging His pure record for us to enter Heaven under, while taking the punishment for our sins, which was death. Then He conquered death and returned victorious.

All Bull Shit fiction from a guy that runs from discussing the morality of his imaginary scenario.

If you ever wish to test your moral sense.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

I don't think I've ever done anything even close to meriting a death sentence for someone else.

Given that the judge is such an evil entity, we should all kick him and his verdicts into hell.

Makes one kind of wish it were real.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Christ alone was a “good person”—good enough to earn heaven—

Do you see the genocidal, homophobic and misogynous as good enough for heaven?

Do you see Armageddon and mass murder as good?

I like the Gnostic Jesus I follow.

I hate the Roman Jesus you seem to follow.

Regards
DL

 

[The Irish Ram]

All Bull Shit fiction from a guy that runs from discussing the morality of his imaginary scenario.

If you ever wish to test your moral sense.

Regards
DL

The 10 commandments have been our moral guidelines since they were first given to us, by the God of Israel...

 

[GreatestIam]

So God sends His only son to Earth where he gets brutally executed and all the sinners get off scot free.

What kind of lesson is that?

A lesson in how not to accept responsibility.

If you want to rid yourself of a Christian at any time or place, mention morals and see how they run.

IMO. Christianity began and has the potential of being the best of the best, but supernatural belief killed it's wisdom.

It forgot how to explain the worth of sin and why we need to forgive each other.

Regards
DL

 

[surada]

So God sends His only son to Earth where he gets brutally executed and all the sinners get off scot free.

What kind of lesson is that?

It wasn't permanent. Jesus was resurrected in 3 days.

 

[GreatestIam]

The 10 commandments have been our moral guidelines since they were first given to us, by the God of Israel...

More Bull Shit.

Even you break the first commandment.

You put another above the evil in Yahweh.

I see you ran from what Jesus taught about being a savior and tried to deflect.

You are looking like an immoral bot.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

It wasn't permanent. Jesus was resurrected in 3 days.

///

Does a death sacrifice not have to stay dead?

I think that, by definition, a human sacrifice has to die.

If Jesus was not human, who cares about some alien of half-breed chimera God dying?

Regards
DL

 

[The Irish Ram]

I don't think I've ever done anything even close to meriting a death sentence for someone else.

Then you know no sin?
Mike, sin isn't graded on a scale. The punishment for sin is eternal death, period. Since sin can't enter Heaven, so you may want to reevaluate your perceived level of it, not by leaning on your own understanding but by the word of God, just to be sure...

 

[The Irish Ram]

More Bull Shit.

Even you break the first commandment.

You put another above the evil in Yahweh.

I see you ran from what Jesus taught about being a savior and tried to deflect.

You are looking like an immoral bot.

Regards
DL

You are the evil, not God...

 

[GreatestIam]

Why do Christians say that Jesus died for the sins of others, and then cut off the narrative? That's not where it ends.

It ends there because of the immorality of the notion for both the giver and the taker.

Regards
DL