Terms 'Christmas' and 'Thanksgiving' banned at school

[frigidweirdo]

f

 

[Yarddog]

Those things have become part of our culture

So, if it's become part of culture it's okay so don't change things? Like slavery was, great argument for keeping it, and segregation. "It's tradition".

you just had to go there............

Oh, did I make life uncomfortable for you?

I believe that people should have fundamental principles in life. And if you believe something, it should encompass EVERYTHING that comes their way.

I'm sorry you're a reactionary who wants to ignore uncomfortable parts of history.

no its just stupid to compare Traditions like Thanksgiving to slavery ... how does that make me a reactionary? In other words, according to you, because Slavery was once a tradition, no other traditions are really valid.

Ive heard that dumb argument before and its a real stretch

No, it's not stupid. It's stupid to be reactionary.

It makes you a reactionary because you don't have a fundamental principle. You see one thing and say "Oh, that's good" and another you say it's bad and then your decision is made. You react to what is in front of you.

Yes, I decide Thanks Giving is good .... and Slavery BAD whats so wrong with that? if being normal is being reactionary, I guess ill stick to being a reactionary.

 

[Tilly]

I personally would not like to see Islamic holidays celebrated in regular schools. I'm not sure how this all works in the US, but in Europe there are muslim schools for families who want to stick with their beliefs and not be involved with anything other than Islamic rites and traditions. I would not want my children being exposed to the ceremonies of a religion that honours a man who waged war, married a nine year old, practiced deceit and murdered people. I might not be religious myself, but I do emphatically believe Jesus and his message is a much better example to expose children to. I don't really understand how anyone, other than a Muslim, could have a problem with that. I fully appreciate that you are going to despise this post. Sorry.

So you wouldn't want Islamic holidays and you have your reasons.

So you could see that others might have a problem with Christianity. Look at the Americas, taken over by Christians, Australia, New Zealand, A lot of Africa and other places too. Wasn't exactly done with flowers and niceness, was it? Read about the conquest of the Incas, very bloody.

Should there be religious schools? My view is no. Education is education.

Should religion be in schools? No. Holidays fine, make things nice, snowflakes, trees, decorations, etc, but Jesus and his fairy tales?? No.

I promise you I am aware of the history of the missionaries and what I consider to be a complete deviation from the New Testament and from Jesus' message, and I'm not exactly happy about it. But that is not the world we live in now. I tend to think about what is happening in the here and now, and that's how I decide what I want for children. I won't ever change my mind about it being better for children to be exposed to Jesus, than say, Mohammed, and these are brief periods in the school year. I really wish people would stop getting so worked up and trying to change everything, and I'm sick and tired of the attacks on Christianity when those doing the attacking give Islam a free pass. It's nauseating.

Mohammed isn't the world we live in now either.

I'm not sure whether you're wilfully wrong or just plain stupid wrong. You need to read the Quran and haditha. You need to understand it is impossible for Islam to have any kind of reformation. You need to understand that Mohammed was a warmonger and that all Muslims are compelled to emulate him. You need to understand that his teachings have no place in any school outside of the madrasah in Pakistan or Saudi.

I disagree. Religion is what people make of it. It's never going to be set in stone. I could read the Bible and say EXACTLY the same thing you're saying about Islam.

I've known plenty of Muslims, I've been to various Muslim countries, and they didn't all follow the Koran to the word and kill all infidels and so on. The Koran says a lot of stuff, like the Bible, that is just plain contradictory.

The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

"
And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah ." 8:61

So, the Koran states that if your enemies are inclined to peace, you should too.

"
Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." 8:69

This part basically reads like this. If you fuck with us, we will fuck you over. If you are nice to us, we will be nice back.

Do you think anyone disagrees with this? Do you not see that what the US did after 9/11 going after bin Laden in Afghanistan was exactly this, and most Americans agreed with this action, yet hate Muslims for having THE SAME ATTITUDE.

I truly can't be bothere to get into a sura war with you, and then put your suras into the actual context, and then look at how abrogation affects the 'decent' suras, but you still seem to be missing the point. Yes, religion can be what people make of it, but the Quran is the immutable word of Allah, and can never, never be changed. They can have no reformation, and the problem of its followers deciding if and when to follow it properly can never go away. Isis are the real devout Muslims. And that's a fact. Read the words of leaders like Erdogan and the great many imans who keep telling us, if only we'd listen, there is only one Islam, and there is no moderate Islam, in fact the very idea of the moderate Muslim is deeply insulting and is an invention of the west. I urge you to read the Quran and maybe then you will understand why I do not want Islam in schools.

 

[frigidweirdo]

So, if it's become part of culture it's okay so don't change things? Like slavery was, great argument for keeping it, and segregation. "It's tradition".

you just had to go there............

Oh, did I make life uncomfortable for you?

I believe that people should have fundamental principles in life. And if you believe something, it should encompass EVERYTHING that comes their way.

I'm sorry you're a reactionary who wants to ignore uncomfortable parts of history.

no its just stupid to compare Traditions like Thanksgiving to slavery ... how does that make me a reactionary? In other words, according to you, because Slavery was once a tradition, no other traditions are really valid.

Ive heard that dumb argument before and its a real stretch

No, it's not stupid. It's stupid to be reactionary.

It makes you a reactionary because you don't have a fundamental principle. You see one thing and say "Oh, that's good" and another you say it's bad and then your decision is made. You react to what is in front of you.

Yes, I decide Thanks Giving is good .... and Slavery BAD whats so wrong with that? if being normal is being reactionary, I guess ill stick to being a reactionary.

Okay you stick to being reactionary. Yes, it's normal, hence why Trump is doing well too.

Doesn't make it sensible though.

 

[Tilly]

I loved the nativity play, the Christmas carols, the Christmas card making, the Christmas tree, and so on. My parents are atheists and I'm agnostic, but I still loved the stories about Jesus and the nativity and all the rest, and I still do. I don't think I want it all taken out of Christmas just because some people don't believe in it. There is little to take offence at in these traditions and they harm no-one, so I'd prefer them to stay, and those that don't like them need not attend.

So you're not offended by it so it's okay?

What if you had Muslim holidays and went through all of that, would you be offended? Maybe not. But how many right wingers do you think WOULD BE offended by it?

This is the point. If people would not accept one thing, why should minorities be forced to accept the majority?

Again, does religion have a place in schools? Education is about learning REAL THINGS.

I personally would not like to see Islamic holidays celebrated in regular schools. I'm not sure how this all works in the US, but in Europe there are muslim schools for families who want to stick with their beliefs and not be involved with anything other than Islamic rites and traditions. I would not want my children being exposed to the ceremonies of a religion that honours a man who waged war, married a nine year old, practiced deceit and murdered people. I might not be religious myself, but I do emphatically believe Jesus and his message is a much better example to expose children to. I don't really understand how anyone, other than a Muslim, could have a problem with that. I fully appreciate that you are going to despise this post. Sorry.

What I get from this post, in summary : "I only want those religious celebrations I like to be allowed in schools".

So you'd like your children to be exposed to a religion where its founder was a warrior who pillaged, enslaved, married a child and murdered people. Well I'm afraid I don't want that at all, and I make no apology for it.

The only religious exposure I would want my children to have in school, at least from the teachers, would be in an historical or social sciences way. In that context I have no problem at all with Islam being discussed like any other religion.

And how realistic do you think it is that Islam and its founder would be discussed in anything approaching an honest historical way?

 

[frigidweirdo]

So you wouldn't want Islamic holidays and you have your reasons.

So you could see that others might have a problem with Christianity. Look at the Americas, taken over by Christians, Australia, New Zealand, A lot of Africa and other places too. Wasn't exactly done with flowers and niceness, was it? Read about the conquest of the Incas, very bloody.

Should there be religious schools? My view is no. Education is education.

Should religion be in schools? No. Holidays fine, make things nice, snowflakes, trees, decorations, etc, but Jesus and his fairy tales?? No.

I promise you I am aware of the history of the missionaries and what I consider to be a complete deviation from the New Testament and from Jesus' message, and I'm not exactly happy about it. But that is not the world we live in now. I tend to think about what is happening in the here and now, and that's how I decide what I want for children. I won't ever change my mind about it being better for children to be exposed to Jesus, than say, Mohammed, and these are brief periods in the school year. I really wish people would stop getting so worked up and trying to change everything, and I'm sick and tired of the attacks on Christianity when those doing the attacking give Islam a free pass. It's nauseating.

Mohammed isn't the world we live in now either.

I'm not sure whether you're wilfully wrong or just plain stupid wrong. You need to read the Quran and haditha. You need to understand it is impossible for Islam to have any kind of reformation. You need to understand that Mohammed was a warmonger and that all Muslims are compelled to emulate him. You need to understand that his teachings have no place in any school outside of the madrasah in Pakistan or Saudi.

I disagree. Religion is what people make of it. It's never going to be set in stone. I could read the Bible and say EXACTLY the same thing you're saying about Islam.

I've known plenty of Muslims, I've been to various Muslim countries, and they didn't all follow the Koran to the word and kill all infidels and so on. The Koran says a lot of stuff, like the Bible, that is just plain contradictory.

The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

"
And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah ." 8:61

So, the Koran states that if your enemies are inclined to peace, you should too.

"
Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." 8:69

This part basically reads like this. If you fuck with us, we will fuck you over. If you are nice to us, we will be nice back.

Do you think anyone disagrees with this? Do you not see that what the US did after 9/11 going after bin Laden in Afghanistan was exactly this, and most Americans agreed with this action, yet hate Muslims for having THE SAME ATTITUDE.

I truly can't be bothere to get into a sura war with you, and then put your suras into the actual context, and then look at how abrogation affects the 'decent' suras, but you still seem to be missing the point. Yes, religion can be what people make of it, but the Quran is the immutable word of Allah, and can never, never be changed. They can have no reformation, and the problem of its followers deciding if and when to follow it properly can never go away. Isis are the real devout Muslims. And that's a fact. Read the words of leaders like Erdogan and the great many imans who keep telling us, if only we'd listen, there is only one Islam, and there is no moderate Islam, in fact the very idea of the moderate Muslim is deeply insulting and is an invention of the west. I urge you to read the Quran and maybe then you will understand why I do not want Islam in schools.

What you don't seem to realise is that the "word of Allah" is contradictory, and people will take what they want to take out of it.

Why do you have some Christians who do good and others who invade Iraq? Most Muslims do good and not bad. Yet some use the Koran for bad and suddenly they're all bad.

You think ISIS represent all of Islam, I'm sorry for you. Maybe you need to meet some Muslims some time.

 

[Kat]

huh??? well----catholics do have SAINT's days-------but in general---my impression from protestants I have known is----JESUS IS IT. Thanksgiving
is SUCCOTH---------a very nice story ------that of Jesus' great great.... grandma---
ruth and lover BOAZ

Well if you are talking about Protestants that only celebrate Jesus, generally you are talking about Protestant fundamentalists. The Seven Main Stream Protestant denominations, (Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Northern Baptists, Congregationalists, Methodists, Christian Church, and Lutherans) observe cultural holidays that are compatible with their own religious culture.

Only people I have ever known to be so centered on Jesus only that they would not observe other holidays were fundamentalists, 'primitive' evangelicals and some Pentecostals. That is a small fragment of the Church world wide.

I grew up with Lutherans and Episcopalians-----mostly. The only holidays I saw were easter and Christmas and the only persons of importance were Jesus and
---Mary --------except Mary was more important for catholics----than she was for
Lutherans and Episcopalians. -----later on I stumbled into Baptists------who somehow did not play cards

LOL I don't know what kind you ran into, but I was raised in a Southern Baptist church.....we played cards........we danced.......we did anything that anyone else does.
I have video of my mom dancing....recently. I think some things are maybe myths, and or possibly different sects of denominations..

 

[Tilly]

How about the minorities make other arrangements?

Again, if kids are singled out for being different in schools, it's not a good thing. It doesn't promote integration at all, it promotes an "us and them" attitude which you can see exists massively with right wingers.

It's at Christmas and Easter. I think you are seriously underestimating children's ability to 'cope' with this terrifying abuse.

To cope with? Children can cope with a lot, many children "cope with" bullying, doesn't make it right.

I'm really not sure why you keep bringing up bullying in this context. There is no bullying here. Lol.

I bring up bullying because bullying exists for certain reasons. Sometimes it exits because people group together and attack those who are weaker, if they see minorities they might go after the minorities. You can see on this board that people will pick on people, they'll try to find out if they're a Muslim, a Jew, anything that makes them easy to pick on, and then they attack.

Schools saying to kids "you three, you're different, you go to another room", and you're making separation within schools that can lead to bullying, just like what happens on this board.

No, the school doesn't say that, it's the kids' parents or the kids who are 'offended' by traditions they don't like and don't wish to take part in.

 

[Kat]

I promise you I am aware of the history of the missionaries and what I consider to be a complete deviation from the New Testament and from Jesus' message, and I'm not exactly happy about it. But that is not the world we live in now. I tend to think about what is happening in the here and now, and that's how I decide what I want for children. I won't ever change my mind about it being better for children to be exposed to Jesus, than say, Mohammed, and these are brief periods in the school year. I really wish people would stop getting so worked up and trying to change everything, and I'm sick and tired of the attacks on Christianity when those doing the attacking give Islam a free pass. It's nauseating.

Mohammed isn't the world we live in now either.

I'm not sure whether you're wilfully wrong or just plain stupid wrong. You need to read the Quran and haditha. You need to understand it is impossible for Islam to have any kind of reformation. You need to understand that Mohammed was a warmonger and that all Muslims are compelled to emulate him. You need to understand that his teachings have no place in any school outside of the madrasah in Pakistan or Saudi.

I disagree. Religion is what people make of it. It's never going to be set in stone. I could read the Bible and say EXACTLY the same thing you're saying about Islam.

I've known plenty of Muslims, I've been to various Muslim countries, and they didn't all follow the Koran to the word and kill all infidels and so on. The Koran says a lot of stuff, like the Bible, that is just plain contradictory.

The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

"
And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah ." 8:61

So, the Koran states that if your enemies are inclined to peace, you should too.

"
Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." 8:69

This part basically reads like this. If you fuck with us, we will fuck you over. If you are nice to us, we will be nice back.

Do you think anyone disagrees with this? Do you not see that what the US did after 9/11 going after bin Laden in Afghanistan was exactly this, and most Americans agreed with this action, yet hate Muslims for having THE SAME ATTITUDE.

I truly can't be bothere to get into a sura war with you, and then put your suras into the actual context, and then look at how abrogation affects the 'decent' suras, but you still seem to be missing the point. Yes, religion can be what people make of it, but the Quran is the immutable word of Allah, and can never, never be changed. They can have no reformation, and the problem of its followers deciding if and when to follow it properly can never go away. Isis are the real devout Muslims. And that's a fact. Read the words of leaders like Erdogan and the great many imans who keep telling us, if only we'd listen, there is only one Islam, and there is no moderate Islam, in fact the very idea of the moderate Muslim is deeply insulting and is an invention of the west. I urge you to read the Quran and maybe then you will understand why I do not want Islam in schools.

What you don't seem to realise is that the "word of Allah" is contradictory, and people will take what they want to take out of it.

Why do you have some Christians who do good and others who invade Iraq? Most Muslims do good and not bad. Yet some use the Koran for bad and suddenly they're all bad.

You think ISIS represent all of Islam, I'm sorry for you. Maybe you need to meet some Muslims some time.

Do Muslims believe and follow the Qu'ran? If so they may not carry out any harmful acts, but doesn't mean they do not believe in them. It's in the Qu'ran. I have read it myself.

 

[Kat]

Sorry Gracie. Not sure how the heck this thread was turned in to a Muslim thread.

 

[Tilly]

Every child in an American school has the right NOT to celebrate traditional American holidays.

However, every American school receiving taxpayer funding should celebrate traditional American holidays, no question. If someone is offended, they can go to chaperoned study in the cafeteria.

Why not just keep religion at home?

Those things have become part of our culture

So, if it's become part of culture it's okay so don't change things? Like slavery was, great argument for keeping it, and segregation. "It's tradition".

Slavery and segregation were heinous and disgusting. 'Merry Christmas '. Christmas trees, nativity scenes and Christmas carols really don't compare.

 

[Tilly]

Calm down for goodness sake. You did do that. I appreciate now you were attempting to illustrate a point, albeit poorly.

Oh, I'm supposed to calm down when you're making up bullshit about me? Right.... maybe next time learn not to make up nonsense.

Also, if I were Muslim, would it be a problem?

I apologise. And no, it would not be a problem at all, quite the opposite. There seem to be precious few muslims here to put their views across.

I think you'd find that any Muslim that announced themselves as a Muslim would certainly get hounded off this board by certain people on the right.

I've had a policy for a long time that I don't give personal information, I've also been told that I'm male or female, and people get a hang up, but I'm not saying which I am.

Also, I think people should work with that really exists, too many people make stuff up and never back up their points of view with sources because they know they'd get found out quite quickly.

Well, that's fine by me. You are articulate, intelligent, passionate and thoughtful, and that's what really counts. I just wish you could ease off on the anger a tad.

Like Islam, like the USA, if I get attacked I don't just sit back and take it.

Also, there was an article saying people who swear are often more intelligent. Ha.

Do you swear a lot? Well it might be a sign of intelligence...

"
Do you swear a lot? Well, good news... it's actually a sign of intelligence, new study suggests"

Okay, thge study seems rather simplistic, but who cares?

Then again my boss thinks I should be less aggressive. I think my boss should stop being stupid and learn to do her job. C'est la vie.

Lol. Well I tend not to swear, so I guess I'm disadvantaged in some way? Waaaa waaaa. Can I sue anyone?

 

[irosie91]

huh??? well----catholics do have SAINT's days-------but in general---my impression from protestants I have known is----JESUS IS IT. Thanksgiving
is SUCCOTH---------a very nice story ------that of Jesus' great great.... grandma---
ruth and lover BOAZ

Well if you are talking about Protestants that only celebrate Jesus, generally you are talking about Protestant fundamentalists. The Seven Main Stream Protestant denominations, (Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Northern Baptists, Congregationalists, Methodists, Christian Church, and Lutherans) observe cultural holidays that are compatible with their own religious culture.

Only people I have ever known to be so centered on Jesus only that they would not observe other holidays were fundamentalists, 'primitive' evangelicals and some Pentecostals. That is a small fragment of the Church world wide.

I grew up with Lutherans and Episcopalians-----mostly. The only holidays I saw were easter and Christmas and the only persons of importance were Jesus and
---Mary --------except Mary was more important for catholics----than she was for
Lutherans and Episcopalians. -----later on I stumbled into Baptists------who somehow did not play cards

LOL I don't know what kind you ran into, but I was raised in a Southern Baptist church.....we played cards........we danced.......we did anything that anyone else does.
I have video of my mom dancing....recently. I think some things are maybe myths, and or possibly different sects of denominations..

I live in the NORTH EAST USA. The Baptists I knew as an adolescent were
black kids with family background in THE SOUTH. Later on I served in the NAVY---the Baptists I knew there were southern kids ------they did A LOT MORE
than I did as a kid-----A WHOLE LOT MORE-----but there was a kind of sense amongst them that drinking and dancing -----although a very major part of their
lives-----was a bit "nasty" My kid served in the NAVY---he got invited to ROUSING BAPTIST church services complete with jumping, clapping, hallelujah -----etc ---and found them fascinating. His mates did "everything" too. I think I am older than are you. By the time there were videos-----my mom was no longer
dancing------she is 97 now and has not danced for a few years

 

[gallantwarrior]

I promise you I am aware of the history of the missionaries and what I consider to be a complete deviation from the New Testament and from Jesus' message, and I'm not exactly happy about it. But that is not the world we live in now. I tend to think about what is happening in the here and now, and that's how I decide what I want for children. I won't ever change my mind about it being better for children to be exposed to Jesus, than say, Mohammed, and these are brief periods in the school year. I really wish people would stop getting so worked up and trying to change everything, and I'm sick and tired of the attacks on Christianity when those doing the attacking give Islam a free pass. It's nauseating.

Mohammed isn't the world we live in now either.

I'm not sure whether you're wilfully wrong or just plain stupid wrong. You need to read the Quran and haditha. You need to understand it is impossible for Islam to have any kind of reformation. You need to understand that Mohammed was a warmonger and that all Muslims are compelled to emulate him. You need to understand that his teachings have no place in any school outside of the madrasah in Pakistan or Saudi.

I disagree. Religion is what people make of it. It's never going to be set in stone. I could read the Bible and say EXACTLY the same thing you're saying about Islam.

I've known plenty of Muslims, I've been to various Muslim countries, and they didn't all follow the Koran to the word and kill all infidels and so on. The Koran says a lot of stuff, like the Bible, that is just plain contradictory.

The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

"
And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah ." 8:61

So, the Koran states that if your enemies are inclined to peace, you should too.

"
Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." 8:69

This part basically reads like this. If you fuck with us, we will fuck you over. If you are nice to us, we will be nice back.

Do you think anyone disagrees with this? Do you not see that what the US did after 9/11 going after bin Laden in Afghanistan was exactly this, and most Americans agreed with this action, yet hate Muslims for having THE SAME ATTITUDE.

I truly can't be bothere to get into a sura war with you, and then put your suras into the actual context, and then look at how abrogation affects the 'decent' suras, but you still seem to be missing the point. Yes, religion can be what people make of it, but the Quran is the immutable word of Allah, and can never, never be changed. They can have no reformation, and the problem of its followers deciding if and when to follow it properly can never go away. Isis are the real devout Muslims. And that's a fact. Read the words of leaders like Erdogan and the great many imans who keep telling us, if only we'd listen, there is only one Islam, and there is no moderate Islam, in fact the very idea of the moderate Muslim is deeply insulting and is an invention of the west. I urge you to read the Quran and maybe then you will understand why I do not want Islam in schools.

What you don't seem to realise is that the "word of Allah" is contradictory, and people will take what they want to take out of it.

Why do you have some Christians who do good and others who invade Iraq? Most Muslims do good and not bad. Yet some use the Koran for bad and suddenly they're all bad.

You think ISIS represent all of Islam, I'm sorry for you. Maybe you need to meet some Muslims some time.

Sorry, I'm not seeing, reading, or hearing how muslims are condemning ISIS and other radical muslim thugs as "bad". What's the problem there?

 

[Kat]

huh??? well----catholics do have SAINT's days-------but in general---my impression from protestants I have known is----JESUS IS IT. Thanksgiving
is SUCCOTH---------a very nice story ------that of Jesus' great great.... grandma---
ruth and lover BOAZ

Well if you are talking about Protestants that only celebrate Jesus, generally you are talking about Protestant fundamentalists. The Seven Main Stream Protestant denominations, (Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Northern Baptists, Congregationalists, Methodists, Christian Church, and Lutherans) observe cultural holidays that are compatible with their own religious culture.

Only people I have ever known to be so centered on Jesus only that they would not observe other holidays were fundamentalists, 'primitive' evangelicals and some Pentecostals. That is a small fragment of the Church world wide.

I grew up with Lutherans and Episcopalians-----mostly. The only holidays I saw were easter and Christmas and the only persons of importance were Jesus and
---Mary --------except Mary was more important for catholics----than she was for
Lutherans and Episcopalians. -----later on I stumbled into Baptists------who somehow did not play cards

LOL I don't know what kind you ran into, but I was raised in a Southern Baptist church.....we played cards........we danced.......we did anything that anyone else does.
I have video of my mom dancing....recently. I think some things are maybe myths, and or possibly different sects of denominations..

I live in the NORTH EAST USA. The Baptists I knew as an adolescent were
black kids with family background in THE SOUTH. Later on I served in the NAVY---the Baptists I knew there were southern kids ------they did A LOT MORE
than I did as a kid-----A WHOLE LOT MORE-----but there was a kind of sense amongst them that drinking and dancing -----although a very major part of their
lives-----was a bit "nasty" My kid served in the NAVY---he got invited to ROUSING BAPTIST church services complete with jumping, clapping, hallelujah -----etc ---and found them fascinating. His mates did "everything" too. I think I am older than are you. By the time there were videos-----my mom was no longer
dancing------she is 97 now and has not danced for a few years

Ah Okay, I see what you are saying.
Anyway, I was not raised that way. My mom is in a nursing home with Alzheimer's. They took video of her dancing...and she is 89, and she still has it. May not have her mind, but she can move LOL

 

[Tilly]

I loved the nativity play, the Christmas carols, the Christmas card making, the Christmas tree, and so on. My parents are atheists and I'm agnostic, but I still loved the stories about Jesus and the nativity and all the rest, and I still do. I don't think I want it all taken out of Christmas just because some people don't believe in it. There is little to take offence at in these traditions and they harm no-one, so I'd prefer them to stay, and those that don't like them need not attend.

So you're not offended by it so it's okay?

What if you had Muslim holidays and went through all of that, would you be offended? Maybe not. But how many right wingers do you think WOULD BE offended by it?

This is the point. If people would not accept one thing, why should minorities be forced to accept the majority?

Again, does religion have a place in schools? Education is about learning REAL THINGS.

I personally would not like to see Islamic holidays celebrated in regular schools. I'm not sure how this all works in the US, but in Europe there are muslim schools for families who want to stick with their beliefs and not be involved with anything other than Islamic rites and traditions. I would not want my children being exposed to the ceremonies of a religion that honours a man who waged war, married a nine year old, practiced deceit and murdered people. I might not be religious myself, but I do emphatically believe Jesus and his message is a much better example to expose children to. I don't really understand how anyone, other than a Muslim, could have a problem with that. I fully appreciate that you are going to despise this post. Sorry.

What I get from this post, in summary : "I only want those religious celebrations I like to be allowed in schools".

So you'd like your children to be exposed to a religion where its founder was a warrior who pillaged, enslaved, married a child and murdered people. Well I'm afraid I don't want that at all, and I make no apology for it.

In the Bible God kills all the first born sons of Egypt for the sins of their parents; kills nearly the entire world because he doesn't like the path it is taking; punishes people for the sins of their fathers, and grandfathers, etc.; it was founded with allowances for slavery and rape; according to many interpretations, God will condemn the majority of people to eternal suffering for not believing in him, because he is a jealous god. You want your children exposed to that?

I would guess that most religions have/had some terrible aspects to them, either in their traditions, their holy texts, their origins, or things done in their name. Radical Islam is certainly a problem in the world at the moment but you seem to think that all 1.5+ billion Muslims in the world are some sort of terrible jihadiis.

Please don't tell me what I seem to think. And I've been referring to the NT and Jesus all along. I think that's been pretty clear.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Again, if kids are singled out for being different in schools, it's not a good thing. It doesn't promote integration at all, it promotes an "us and them" attitude which you can see exists massively with right wingers.

It's at Christmas and Easter. I think you are seriously underestimating children's ability to 'cope' with this terrifying abuse.

To cope with? Children can cope with a lot, many children "cope with" bullying, doesn't make it right.

I'm really not sure why you keep bringing up bullying in this context. There is no bullying here. Lol.

I bring up bullying because bullying exists for certain reasons. Sometimes it exits because people group together and attack those who are weaker, if they see minorities they might go after the minorities. You can see on this board that people will pick on people, they'll try to find out if they're a Muslim, a Jew, anything that makes them easy to pick on, and then they attack.

Schools saying to kids "you three, you're different, you go to another room", and you're making separation within schools that can lead to bullying, just like what happens on this board.

No, the school doesn't say that, it's the kids' parents or the kids who are 'offended' by traditions they don't like and don't wish to take part in.

I know. The point is that the are causing separation by having things that some kids won't want to participate in. Everything should be inclusive.

 

[Yarddog]

Calm down for goodness sake. You did do that. I appreciate now you were attempting to illustrate a point, albeit poorly.

Oh, I'm supposed to calm down when you're making up bullshit about me? Right.... maybe next time learn not to make up nonsense.

Also, if I were Muslim, would it be a problem?

I apologise. And no, it would not be a problem at all, quite the opposite. There seem to be precious few muslims here to put their views across.

I think you'd find that any Muslim that announced themselves as a Muslim would certainly get hounded off this board by certain people on the right.

I've had a policy for a long time that I don't give personal information, I've also been told that I'm male or female, and people get a hang up, but I'm not saying which I am.

Also, I think people should work with that really exists, too many people make stuff up and never back up their points of view with sources because they know they'd get found out quite quickly.

Well, that's fine by me. You are articulate, intelligent, passionate and thoughtful, and that's what really counts. I just wish you could ease off on the anger a tad.

Like Islam, like the USA, if I get attacked I don't just sit back and take it.

Also, there was an article saying people who swear are often more intelligent. Ha.

Do you swear a lot? Well it might be a sign of intelligence...

"
Do you swear a lot? Well, good news... it's actually a sign of intelligence, new study suggests"

Okay, thge study seems rather simplistic, but who cares?

Then again my boss thinks I should be less aggressive. I think my boss should stop being stupid and learn to do her job. C'est la vie.

Well SON OF A ................. !

 

[irosie91]

huh??? well----catholics do have SAINT's days-------but in general---my impression from protestants I have known is----JESUS IS IT. Thanksgiving
is SUCCOTH---------a very nice story ------that of Jesus' great great.... grandma---
ruth and lover BOAZ

Well if you are talking about Protestants that only celebrate Jesus, generally you are talking about Protestant fundamentalists. The Seven Main Stream Protestant denominations, (Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Northern Baptists, Congregationalists, Methodists, Christian Church, and Lutherans) observe cultural holidays that are compatible with their own religious culture.

Only people I have ever known to be so centered on Jesus only that they would not observe other holidays were fundamentalists, 'primitive' evangelicals and some Pentecostals. That is a small fragment of the Church world wide.

I grew up with Lutherans and Episcopalians-----mostly. The only holidays I saw were easter and Christmas and the only persons of importance were Jesus and
---Mary --------except Mary was more important for catholics----than she was for
Lutherans and Episcopalians. -----later on I stumbled into Baptists------who somehow did not play cards

LOL I don't know what kind you ran into, but I was raised in a Southern Baptist church.....we played cards........we danced.......we did anything that anyone else does.
I have video of my mom dancing....recently. I think some things are maybe myths, and or possibly different sects of denominations..

I live in the NORTH EAST USA. The Baptists I knew as an adolescent were
black kids with family background in THE SOUTH. Later on I served in the NAVY---the Baptists I knew there were southern kids ------they did A LOT MORE
than I did as a kid-----A WHOLE LOT MORE-----but there was a kind of sense amongst them that drinking and dancing -----although a very major part of their
lives-----was a bit "nasty" My kid served in the NAVY---he got invited to ROUSING BAPTIST church services complete with jumping, clapping, hallelujah -----etc ---and found them fascinating. His mates did "everything" too. I think I am older than are you. By the time there were videos-----my mom was no longer
dancing------she is 97 now and has not danced for a few years

Ah Okay, I see what you are saying.
Anyway, I was not raised that way. My mom is in a nursing home with Alzheimer's. They took video of her dancing...and she is 89, and she has it. May not have her mind, but she can move LOL

well ELVIS was a Baptist----and HE CERTAINLY MOVED.

 

[Kat]

Well if you are talking about Protestants that only celebrate Jesus, generally you are talking about Protestant fundamentalists. The Seven Main Stream Protestant denominations, (Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Northern Baptists, Congregationalists, Methodists, Christian Church, and Lutherans) observe cultural holidays that are compatible with their own religious culture.

Only people I have ever known to be so centered on Jesus only that they would not observe other holidays were fundamentalists, 'primitive' evangelicals and some Pentecostals. That is a small fragment of the Church world wide.

I grew up with Lutherans and Episcopalians-----mostly. The only holidays I saw were easter and Christmas and the only persons of importance were Jesus and
---Mary --------except Mary was more important for catholics----than she was for
Lutherans and Episcopalians. -----later on I stumbled into Baptists------who somehow did not play cards

LOL I don't know what kind you ran into, but I was raised in a Southern Baptist church.....we played cards........we danced.......we did anything that anyone else does.
I have video of my mom dancing....recently. I think some things are maybe myths, and or possibly different sects of denominations..

I live in the NORTH EAST USA. The Baptists I knew as an adolescent were
black kids with family background in THE SOUTH. Later on I served in the NAVY---the Baptists I knew there were southern kids ------they did A LOT MORE
than I did as a kid-----A WHOLE LOT MORE-----but there was a kind of sense amongst them that drinking and dancing -----although a very major part of their
lives-----was a bit "nasty" My kid served in the NAVY---he got invited to ROUSING BAPTIST church services complete with jumping, clapping, hallelujah -----etc ---and found them fascinating. His mates did "everything" too. I think I am older than are you. By the time there were videos-----my mom was no longer
dancing------she is 97 now and has not danced for a few years

Ah Okay, I see what you are saying.
Anyway, I was not raised that way. My mom is in a nursing home with Alzheimer's. They took video of her dancing...and she is 89, and she has it. May not have her mind, but she can move LOL

well ELVIS was a Baptist----and HE CERTAINLY MOVED.

Fer sure!