Terms 'Christmas' and 'Thanksgiving' banned at school

[frigidweirdo]

Oh, I claim to be, do I?

Really. And where did you make this up from? Or was it when I claimed to be Muslim, Jewish and Buddhist at the same time?

No it was before you added in the other religions. It was when you referred to you and the adhan etc.

Fucking hell!!!!

Calm down for goodness sake. You did do that. I appreciate now you were attempting to illustrate a point, albeit poorly.

Oh, I'm supposed to calm down when you're making up bullshit about me? Right.... maybe next time learn not to make up nonsense.

Also, if I were Muslim, would it be a problem?

I apologise. And no, it would not be a problem at all, quite the opposite. There seem to be precious few muslims here to put their views across.

I think you'd find that any Muslim that announced themselves as a Muslim would certainly get hounded off this board by certain people on the right.

I've had a policy for a long time that I don't give personal information, I've also been told that I'm male or female, and people get a hang up, but I'm not saying which I am.

Also, I think people should work with that really exists, too many people make stuff up and never back up their points of view with sources because they know they'd get found out quite quickly.

 

[Tilly]

Lol, not every Christian religious holiday is about Jesus, doofus.

Truth be told, even celebrating the birth of Jesus at Christmastime (i.e. late December) is nothing more than co-opting the traditional pagan celebration of the winter solstice, when the year turns. Lots of Christian holidays somehow managed to end up being celebrated at the same time that pagan/non-Christians celebrated...go figure!

That is absolutely true, but I don't see how it matters now.

Apparently it matters to some people who equate such holidays strictly as Christian celebrations when, in fact, such celebrations predate Christianity by millennia. Why some folks take umbrage at so-called "Christian" holidays is beyond me.

I would assume it depends on the circumstances. If the holiday is being pushed by the teachers on to the students, Christmas themes on schoolwork, Christmas activities for the class, things like that, a non-Christian family, particularly one that doesn't celebrate Christmas, might feel that the school is pushing a religious belief onto their child.

It gets more complicated when you have religious themed activities but allow children to 'opt out'. A child may not be forced to do religious activities they don't believe in, but in our majority Christian country, with many non-Christians celebrating Christmas, it probably wouldn't be unusual for only one student in a classroom to not be involved in whatever Christmas activity is being done. The child might feel ostracised, be made fun of by other students, etc.. Maybe that isn't enough reason to do away with school-sponsored Christmas activities, but apparently enough people now feel it is that at least some places have changed things.

There is a lot of over-sensitivity involved, but I think that is true both from some who would prefer all reference to Christmas gone from schools and some who would like to see it celebrated. Is calling it the winter holiday, or something of that nature, really that offensive or damaging to the children? Banning any use of the word Christmas in school would, obviously, be ridiculous, but I haven't seen any credible evidence that happened.

With Thanksgiving, I can only guess someone worries about possible offense to native Indians.

People can get so hyper sensitive about this kind of thing I completely understand schools wanting to avoid dealing with it and going with the most bland holiday celebration they can.

I could see allowing a Winter break around the time of the Solstice. A week between Solstice and New Years would accommodate most peoples' religious requirements. We have Spring Break, which corresponds roughly with the Spring Equinox, so why not something similar in winter? Unfortunately, too many people are now PC victims and are so offended by simple traditions, it's sickening. Really, people, get a grasp and focus on more important aspects of life. Does someone wishing you a "Merry Christmas" cause that much damage?

Merry Christmas!

 

[JOSweetHeart]

I'm not religious but find no offense if someone wishes me a "merry Christmas". I see no reason to limit someone else's' freedom of speech should they choose to express their acknowledgement of the season.

Amen to this. If a person wants any consideration for their own rights, they are going to have to show some for everyone else's rights.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

 

[frigidweirdo]

Christmas is a nice time of year. But why? Is it the religious, or is it just that people celebrate something? Having a "winter festival", no religious, with things that make it fun, present giving, decorations and the like, what's wrong with that? If kids want to have it as Christmas, then fine, but everyone should be allowed to partake in this, and unless the school is 100% of a faith, then it isn't going to happen.

I loved the nativity play, the Christmas carols, the Christmas card making, the Christmas tree, and so on. My parents are atheists and I'm agnostic, but I still loved the stories about Jesus and the nativity and all the rest, and I still do. I don't think I want it all taken out of Christmas just because some people don't believe in it. There is little to take offence at in these traditions and they harm no-one, so I'd prefer them to stay, and those that don't like them need not attend.

So you're not offended by it so it's okay?

What if you had Muslim holidays and went through all of that, would you be offended? Maybe not. But how many right wingers do you think WOULD BE offended by it?

This is the point. If people would not accept one thing, why should minorities be forced to accept the majority?

Again, does religion have a place in schools? Education is about learning REAL THINGS.

How about the minorities make other arrangements?

Again, if kids are singled out for being different in schools, it's not a good thing. It doesn't promote integration at all, it promotes an "us and them" attitude which you can see exists massively with right wingers.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to differ. I don't want children exposed to the pseudo religion of a warmongerer and a totalitarian political system masquerading as a religion. Everything else is fine by me. Sorry, and feel free to call me a bigot and whatever else. I won't mind.

"pseudo religion of a warmongerer", isn't Christianity a religion of war? Christianity teaches that you can sin and sin and sin, then go to church on a Sunday and everything will be okay again.

Just because people don't go to war in the name of Christianity like they do in Islam, doesn't mean that the religion doesn't play a big part.

If Dubya had been a Buddhist, would he have gone to war in Iraq? Probably not.

 

[frigidweirdo]

So you're not offended by it so it's okay?

What if you had Muslim holidays and went through all of that, would you be offended? Maybe not. But how many right wingers do you think WOULD BE offended by it?

This is the point. If people would not accept one thing, why should minorities be forced to accept the majority?

Again, does religion have a place in schools? Education is about learning REAL THINGS.

How about the minorities make other arrangements?

Again, if kids are singled out for being different in schools, it's not a good thing. It doesn't promote integration at all, it promotes an "us and them" attitude which you can see exists massively with right wingers.

Only right-wingers? Really? Looked in a mirror lately?

Did I say "only right wingers"????

You certainly did not include left-wingers.

So let's look at the facts. I said "which you can see exists massively with right wingers".

I did not mention left wingers. I also didn't mention the Red Sox, nor did I mention Buffalo, nor did I mention the moon. Does this mean that I excluded all of these things? No.

So, let's stick to WHAT I SAID and not go around making pointless statements that are based on nothing other than your desire to read things into what I actually said.

 

[Tilly]

I loved the nativity play, the Christmas carols, the Christmas card making, the Christmas tree, and so on. My parents are atheists and I'm agnostic, but I still loved the stories about Jesus and the nativity and all the rest, and I still do. I don't think I want it all taken out of Christmas just because some people don't believe in it. There is little to take offence at in these traditions and they harm no-one, so I'd prefer them to stay, and those that don't like them need not attend.

So you're not offended by it so it's okay?

What if you had Muslim holidays and went through all of that, would you be offended? Maybe not. But how many right wingers do you think WOULD BE offended by it?

This is the point. If people would not accept one thing, why should minorities be forced to accept the majority?

Again, does religion have a place in schools? Education is about learning REAL THINGS.

I personally would not like to see Islamic holidays celebrated in regular schools. I'm not sure how this all works in the US, but in Europe there are muslim schools for families who want to stick with their beliefs and not be involved with anything other than Islamic rites and traditions. I would not want my children being exposed to the ceremonies of a religion that honours a man who waged war, married a nine year old, practiced deceit and murdered people. I might not be religious myself, but I do emphatically believe Jesus and his message is a much better example to expose children to. I don't really understand how anyone, other than a Muslim, could have a problem with that. I fully appreciate that you are going to despise this post. Sorry.

So you wouldn't want Islamic holidays and you have your reasons.

So you could see that others might have a problem with Christianity. Look at the Americas, taken over by Christians, Australia, New Zealand, A lot of Africa and other places too. Wasn't exactly done with flowers and niceness, was it? Read about the conquest of the Incas, very bloody.

Should there be religious schools? My view is no. Education is education.

Should religion be in schools? No. Holidays fine, make things nice, snowflakes, trees, decorations, etc, but Jesus and his fairy tales?? No.

I promise you I am aware of the history of the missionaries and what I consider to be a complete deviation from the New Testament and from Jesus' message, and I'm not exactly happy about it. But that is not the world we live in now. I tend to think about what is happening in the here and now, and that's how I decide what I want for children. I won't ever change my mind about it being better for children to be exposed to Jesus, than say, Mohammed, and these are brief periods in the school year. I really wish people would stop getting so worked up and trying to change everything, and I'm sick and tired of the attacks on Christianity when those doing the attacking give Islam a free pass. It's nauseating.

Mohammed isn't the world we live in now either.

What is the world we live in is people who take a religion and use it for their own aims and goals.

Now, Islam has been on the back foot, fighting wars against superior technology and numbers, the UK, the USA, France etc, for quite some time now, and has learned that having people who believe in something is a great tool for fighting guerrilla warfare.

Islam is neither here nor there, but they're using the religion, twisting the religion (everyone twists religion no matter who they are) to suit the needs of the times.

Hitler and Stalin were exposed to Jesus. Enough said?

You want to stop people changing things? Well, that's life, sorry.

Change is often good. But not always, and certainly not when it's regressive.
You probably need to read the Quran, and then come back here and honestly tell me you want children who are not unlucky enough to have been born into the system that is Islam, be exposed to it for no good reason at all.

 

[frigidweirdo]

So you're not offended by it so it's okay?

What if you had Muslim holidays and went through all of that, would you be offended? Maybe not. But how many right wingers do you think WOULD BE offended by it?

This is the point. If people would not accept one thing, why should minorities be forced to accept the majority?

Again, does religion have a place in schools? Education is about learning REAL THINGS.

I personally would not like to see Islamic holidays celebrated in regular schools. I'm not sure how this all works in the US, but in Europe there are muslim schools for families who want to stick with their beliefs and not be involved with anything other than Islamic rites and traditions. I would not want my children being exposed to the ceremonies of a religion that honours a man who waged war, married a nine year old, practiced deceit and murdered people. I might not be religious myself, but I do emphatically believe Jesus and his message is a much better example to expose children to. I don't really understand how anyone, other than a Muslim, could have a problem with that. I fully appreciate that you are going to despise this post. Sorry.

So you wouldn't want Islamic holidays and you have your reasons.

So you could see that others might have a problem with Christianity. Look at the Americas, taken over by Christians, Australia, New Zealand, A lot of Africa and other places too. Wasn't exactly done with flowers and niceness, was it? Read about the conquest of the Incas, very bloody.

Should there be religious schools? My view is no. Education is education.

Should religion be in schools? No. Holidays fine, make things nice, snowflakes, trees, decorations, etc, but Jesus and his fairy tales?? No.

I promise you I am aware of the history of the missionaries and what I consider to be a complete deviation from the New Testament and from Jesus' message, and I'm not exactly happy about it. But that is not the world we live in now. I tend to think about what is happening in the here and now, and that's how I decide what I want for children. I won't ever change my mind about it being better for children to be exposed to Jesus, than say, Mohammed, and these are brief periods in the school year. I really wish people would stop getting so worked up and trying to change everything, and I'm sick and tired of the attacks on Christianity when those doing the attacking give Islam a free pass. It's nauseating.

Mohammed isn't the world we live in now either.

What is the world we live in is people who take a religion and use it for their own aims and goals.

Now, Islam has been on the back foot, fighting wars against superior technology and numbers, the UK, the USA, France etc, for quite some time now, and has learned that having people who believe in something is a great tool for fighting guerrilla warfare.

Islam is neither here nor there, but they're using the religion, twisting the religion (everyone twists religion no matter who they are) to suit the needs of the times.

Hitler and Stalin were exposed to Jesus. Enough said?

You want to stop people changing things? Well, that's life, sorry.

Change is often good. But not always, and certainly not when it's regressive.
You probably need to read the Quran, and then come back here and honestly tell me you want children who are not unlucky enough to have been born into the system that is Islam, be exposed to it for no good reason at all.

I didn't say I liked Islam. I don't like religion at all. I think religion is just a bunch of nonsense that people twist for their own goals.

Like Christianity, people using it to justify bad acts and then feel good about themselves.

 

[JimBowie1958]

"pseudo religion of a warmongerer", isn't Christianity a religion of war? Christianity teaches that you can sin and sin and sin, then go to church on a Sunday and everything will be okay again.

Just because people don't go to war in the name of Christianity like they do in Islam, doesn't mean that the religion doesn't play a big part.

If Dubya had been a Buddhist, would he have gone to war in Iraq? Probably not.

What makes you say that when history is full of Buddhist empires, from Burma to Siam? Even Tibet, a largely Buddhist nation had an empire at one time.

 

[Tilly]

I loved the nativity play, the Christmas carols, the Christmas card making, the Christmas tree, and so on. My parents are atheists and I'm agnostic, but I still loved the stories about Jesus and the nativity and all the rest, and I still do. I don't think I want it all taken out of Christmas just because some people don't believe in it. There is little to take offence at in these traditions and they harm no-one, so I'd prefer them to stay, and those that don't like them need not attend.

So you're not offended by it so it's okay?

What if you had Muslim holidays and went through all of that, would you be offended? Maybe not. But how many right wingers do you think WOULD BE offended by it?

This is the point. If people would not accept one thing, why should minorities be forced to accept the majority?

Again, does religion have a place in schools? Education is about learning REAL THINGS.

I personally would not like to see Islamic holidays celebrated in regular schools. I'm not sure how this all works in the US, but in Europe there are muslim schools for families who want to stick with their beliefs and not be involved with anything other than Islamic rites and traditions. I would not want my children being exposed to the ceremonies of a religion that honours a man who waged war, married a nine year old, practiced deceit and murdered people. I might not be religious myself, but I do emphatically believe Jesus and his message is a much better example to expose children to. I don't really understand how anyone, other than a Muslim, could have a problem with that. I fully appreciate that you are going to despise this post. Sorry.

So you wouldn't want Islamic holidays and you have your reasons.

So you could see that others might have a problem with Christianity. Look at the Americas, taken over by Christians, Australia, New Zealand, A lot of Africa and other places too. Wasn't exactly done with flowers and niceness, was it? Read about the conquest of the Incas, very bloody.

Should there be religious schools? My view is no. Education is education.

Should religion be in schools? No. Holidays fine, make things nice, snowflakes, trees, decorations, etc, but Jesus and his fairy tales?? No.

I promise you I am aware of the history of the missionaries and what I consider to be a complete deviation from the New Testament and from Jesus' message, and I'm not exactly happy about it. But that is not the world we live in now. I tend to think about what is happening in the here and now, and that's how I decide what I want for children. I won't ever change my mind about it being better for children to be exposed to Jesus, than say, Mohammed, and these are brief periods in the school year. I really wish people would stop getting so worked up and trying to change everything, and I'm sick and tired of the attacks on Christianity when those doing the attacking give Islam a free pass. It's nauseating.

Mohammed isn't the world we live in now either.

I'm not sure whether you're wilfully wrong or just plain stupid wrong. You need to read the Quran and haditha. You need to understand it is impossible for Islam to have any kind of reformation. You need to understand that Mohammed was a warmonger and that all Muslims are compelled to emulate him. You need to understand that his teachings have no place in any school outside of the madrasah in Pakistan or Saudi.

 

[frigidweirdo]

"pseudo religion of a warmongerer", isn't Christianity a religion of war? Christianity teaches that you can sin and sin and sin, then go to church on a Sunday and everything will be okay again.

Just because people don't go to war in the name of Christianity like they do in Islam, doesn't mean that the religion doesn't play a big part.

If Dubya had been a Buddhist, would he have gone to war in Iraq? Probably not.

What makes you say that when history is full of Buddhist empires, from Burma to Siam? Even Tibet, a largely Buddhist nation had an empire at one time.

I know, I'm not saying Buddhism is all about peace. I'm saying that Buddhism would less likely go invade Iraq than Christianity. We're talking percentages here rather than absolutes.

 

[Tilly]

I loved the nativity play, the Christmas carols, the Christmas card making, the Christmas tree, and so on. My parents are atheists and I'm agnostic, but I still loved the stories about Jesus and the nativity and all the rest, and I still do. I don't think I want it all taken out of Christmas just because some people don't believe in it. There is little to take offence at in these traditions and they harm no-one, so I'd prefer them to stay, and those that don't like them need not attend.

So you're not offended by it so it's okay?

What if you had Muslim holidays and went through all of that, would you be offended? Maybe not. But how many right wingers do you think WOULD BE offended by it?

This is the point. If people would not accept one thing, why should minorities be forced to accept the majority?

Again, does religion have a place in schools? Education is about learning REAL THINGS.

How about the minorities make other arrangements?

Again, if kids are singled out for being different in schools, it's not a good thing. It doesn't promote integration at all, it promotes an "us and them" attitude which you can see exists massively with right wingers.

It's at Christmas and Easter. I think you are seriously underestimating children's ability to 'cope' with this terrifying abuse.

To cope with? Children can cope with a lot, many children "cope with" bullying, doesn't make it right.

Im getting the feeling you were bullied, and if so, I'm really sorry for that.

 

[Tilly]

I loved the nativity play, the Christmas carols, the Christmas card making, the Christmas tree, and so on. My parents are atheists and I'm agnostic, but I still loved the stories about Jesus and the nativity and all the rest, and I still do. I don't think I want it all taken out of Christmas just because some people don't believe in it. There is little to take offence at in these traditions and they harm no-one, so I'd prefer them to stay, and those that don't like them need not attend.

So you're not offended by it so it's okay?

What if you had Muslim holidays and went through all of that, would you be offended? Maybe not. But how many right wingers do you think WOULD BE offended by it?

This is the point. If people would not accept one thing, why should minorities be forced to accept the majority?

Again, does religion have a place in schools? Education is about learning REAL THINGS.

How about the minorities make other arrangements?

Again, if kids are singled out for being different in schools, it's not a good thing. It doesn't promote integration at all, it promotes an "us and them" attitude which you can see exists massively with right wingers.

It's at Christmas and Easter. I think you are seriously underestimating children's ability to 'cope' with this terrifying abuse.

To cope with? Children can cope with a lot, many children "cope with" bullying, doesn't make it right.

I'm really not sure why you keep bringing up bullying in this context. There is no bullying here. Lol.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Truth be told, even celebrating the birth of Jesus at Christmastime (i.e. late December) is nothing more than co-opting the traditional pagan celebration of the winter solstice, when the year turns. Lots of Christian holidays somehow managed to end up being celebrated at the same time that pagan/non-Christians celebrated...go figure!

That is absolutely true, but I don't see how it matters now.

Apparently it matters to some people who equate such holidays strictly as Christian celebrations when, in fact, such celebrations predate Christianity by millennia. Why some folks take umbrage at so-called "Christian" holidays is beyond me.

I would assume it depends on the circumstances. If the holiday is being pushed by the teachers on to the students, Christmas themes on schoolwork, Christmas activities for the class, things like that, a non-Christian family, particularly one that doesn't celebrate Christmas, might feel that the school is pushing a religious belief onto their child.

It gets more complicated when you have religious themed activities but allow children to 'opt out'. A child may not be forced to do religious activities they don't believe in, but in our majority Christian country, with many non-Christians celebrating Christmas, it probably wouldn't be unusual for only one student in a classroom to not be involved in whatever Christmas activity is being done. The child might feel ostracised, be made fun of by other students, etc.. Maybe that isn't enough reason to do away with school-sponsored Christmas activities, but apparently enough people now feel it is that at least some places have changed things.

There is a lot of over-sensitivity involved, but I think that is true both from some who would prefer all reference to Christmas gone from schools and some who would like to see it celebrated. Is calling it the winter holiday, or something of that nature, really that offensive or damaging to the children? Banning any use of the word Christmas in school would, obviously, be ridiculous, but I haven't seen any credible evidence that happened.

With Thanksgiving, I can only guess someone worries about possible offense to native Indians.

People can get so hyper sensitive about this kind of thing I completely understand schools wanting to avoid dealing with it and going with the most bland holiday celebration they can.

I could see allowing a Winter break around the time of the Solstice. A week between Solstice and New Years would accommodate most peoples' religious requirements. We have Spring Break, which corresponds roughly with the Spring Equinox, so why not something similar in winter? Unfortunately, too many people are now PC victims and are so offended by simple traditions, it's sickening. Really, people, get a grasp and focus on more important aspects of life. Does someone wishing you a "Merry Christmas" cause that much damage?

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas backatcha Tilly!

 

[Tilly]

So you're not offended by it so it's okay?

What if you had Muslim holidays and went through all of that, would you be offended? Maybe not. But how many right wingers do you think WOULD BE offended by it?

This is the point. If people would not accept one thing, why should minorities be forced to accept the majority?

Again, does religion have a place in schools? Education is about learning REAL THINGS.

How about the minorities make other arrangements?

Again, if kids are singled out for being different in schools, it's not a good thing. It doesn't promote integration at all, it promotes an "us and them" attitude which you can see exists massively with right wingers.

Only right-wingers? Really? Looked in a mirror lately?

Did I say "only right wingers"????

You certainly did not include left-wingers.

You are correct. My, my, what's happened to the all-encompassing inclusiveness here? Lol

 

[gallantwarrior]

I'm not religious but find no offense if someone wishes me a "merry Christmas". I see no reason to limit someone else's' freedom of speech should they choose to express their acknowledgement of the season.

Amen to this. If a person wants any consideration for their own rights, they are going to have to show some for everyone else's rights.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

Bless you, too, JO! Best wishes at the turning of the year!

 

[frigidweirdo]

So you're not offended by it so it's okay?

What if you had Muslim holidays and went through all of that, would you be offended? Maybe not. But how many right wingers do you think WOULD BE offended by it?

This is the point. If people would not accept one thing, why should minorities be forced to accept the majority?

Again, does religion have a place in schools? Education is about learning REAL THINGS.

I personally would not like to see Islamic holidays celebrated in regular schools. I'm not sure how this all works in the US, but in Europe there are muslim schools for families who want to stick with their beliefs and not be involved with anything other than Islamic rites and traditions. I would not want my children being exposed to the ceremonies of a religion that honours a man who waged war, married a nine year old, practiced deceit and murdered people. I might not be religious myself, but I do emphatically believe Jesus and his message is a much better example to expose children to. I don't really understand how anyone, other than a Muslim, could have a problem with that. I fully appreciate that you are going to despise this post. Sorry.

So you wouldn't want Islamic holidays and you have your reasons.

So you could see that others might have a problem with Christianity. Look at the Americas, taken over by Christians, Australia, New Zealand, A lot of Africa and other places too. Wasn't exactly done with flowers and niceness, was it? Read about the conquest of the Incas, very bloody.

Should there be religious schools? My view is no. Education is education.

Should religion be in schools? No. Holidays fine, make things nice, snowflakes, trees, decorations, etc, but Jesus and his fairy tales?? No.

I promise you I am aware of the history of the missionaries and what I consider to be a complete deviation from the New Testament and from Jesus' message, and I'm not exactly happy about it. But that is not the world we live in now. I tend to think about what is happening in the here and now, and that's how I decide what I want for children. I won't ever change my mind about it being better for children to be exposed to Jesus, than say, Mohammed, and these are brief periods in the school year. I really wish people would stop getting so worked up and trying to change everything, and I'm sick and tired of the attacks on Christianity when those doing the attacking give Islam a free pass. It's nauseating.

Mohammed isn't the world we live in now either.

I'm not sure whether you're wilfully wrong or just plain stupid wrong. You need to read the Quran and haditha. You need to understand it is impossible for Islam to have any kind of reformation. You need to understand that Mohammed was a warmonger and that all Muslims are compelled to emulate him. You need to understand that his teachings have no place in any school outside of the madrasah in Pakistan or Saudi.

I disagree. Religion is what people make of it. It's never going to be set in stone. I could read the Bible and say EXACTLY the same thing you're saying about Islam.

I've known plenty of Muslims, I've been to various Muslim countries, and they didn't all follow the Koran to the word and kill all infidels and so on. The Koran says a lot of stuff, like the Bible, that is just plain contradictory.

The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

"
And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah ." 8:61

So, the Koran states that if your enemies are inclined to peace, you should too.

"
Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." 8:69

This part basically reads like this. If you fuck with us, we will fuck you over. If you are nice to us, we will be nice back.

Do you think anyone disagrees with this? Do you not see that what the US did after 9/11 going after bin Laden in Afghanistan was exactly this, and most Americans agreed with this action, yet hate Muslims for having THE SAME ATTITUDE.

 

[Yarddog]

Every child in an American school has the right NOT to celebrate traditional American holidays.

However, every American school receiving taxpayer funding should celebrate traditional American holidays, no question. If someone is offended, they can go to chaperoned study in the cafeteria.

Why not just keep religion at home?

Those things have become part of our culture

 

[gallantwarrior]

I personally would not like to see Islamic holidays celebrated in regular schools. I'm not sure how this all works in the US, but in Europe there are muslim schools for families who want to stick with their beliefs and not be involved with anything other than Islamic rites and traditions. I would not want my children being exposed to the ceremonies of a religion that honours a man who waged war, married a nine year old, practiced deceit and murdered people. I might not be religious myself, but I do emphatically believe Jesus and his message is a much better example to expose children to. I don't really understand how anyone, other than a Muslim, could have a problem with that. I fully appreciate that you are going to despise this post. Sorry.

So you wouldn't want Islamic holidays and you have your reasons.

So you could see that others might have a problem with Christianity. Look at the Americas, taken over by Christians, Australia, New Zealand, A lot of Africa and other places too. Wasn't exactly done with flowers and niceness, was it? Read about the conquest of the Incas, very bloody.

Should there be religious schools? My view is no. Education is education.

Should religion be in schools? No. Holidays fine, make things nice, snowflakes, trees, decorations, etc, but Jesus and his fairy tales?? No.

I promise you I am aware of the history of the missionaries and what I consider to be a complete deviation from the New Testament and from Jesus' message, and I'm not exactly happy about it. But that is not the world we live in now. I tend to think about what is happening in the here and now, and that's how I decide what I want for children. I won't ever change my mind about it being better for children to be exposed to Jesus, than say, Mohammed, and these are brief periods in the school year. I really wish people would stop getting so worked up and trying to change everything, and I'm sick and tired of the attacks on Christianity when those doing the attacking give Islam a free pass. It's nauseating.

Mohammed isn't the world we live in now either.

What is the world we live in is people who take a religion and use it for their own aims and goals.

Now, Islam has been on the back foot, fighting wars against superior technology and numbers, the UK, the USA, France etc, for quite some time now, and has learned that having people who believe in something is a great tool for fighting guerrilla warfare.

Islam is neither here nor there, but they're using the religion, twisting the religion (everyone twists religion no matter who they are) to suit the needs of the times.

Hitler and Stalin were exposed to Jesus. Enough said?

You want to stop people changing things? Well, that's life, sorry.

Change is often good. But not always, and certainly not when it's regressive.
You probably need to read the Quran, and then come back here and honestly tell me you want children who are not unlucky enough to have been born into the system that is Islam, be exposed to it for no good reason at all.

I didn't say I liked Islam. I don't like religion at all. I think religion is just a bunch of nonsense that people twist for their own goals.

Like Christianity, people using it to justify bad acts and then feel good about themselves.

Yes, but you single out Christianity, just like you single out right-wingers. You omissions are more clearly indicative of your proclivities than you might think.

 

[Tilly]

No it was before you added in the other religions. It was when you referred to you and the adhan etc.

Fucking hell!!!!

Calm down for goodness sake. You did do that. I appreciate now you were attempting to illustrate a point, albeit poorly.

Oh, I'm supposed to calm down when you're making up bullshit about me? Right.... maybe next time learn not to make up nonsense.

Also, if I were Muslim, would it be a problem?

I apologise. And no, it would not be a problem at all, quite the opposite. There seem to be precious few muslims here to put their views across.

I think you'd find that any Muslim that announced themselves as a Muslim would certainly get hounded off this board by certain people on the right.

I've had a policy for a long time that I don't give personal information, I've also been told that I'm male or female, and people get a hang up, but I'm not saying which I am.

Also, I think people should work with that really exists, too many people make stuff up and never back up their points of view with sources because they know they'd get found out quite quickly.

Well, that's fine by me. You are articulate, intelligent, passionate and thoughtful, and that's what really counts. I just wish you could ease off on the anger a tad.

 

[Montrovant]

Christmas is a nice time of year. But why? Is it the religious, or is it just that people celebrate something? Having a "winter festival", no religious, with things that make it fun, present giving, decorations and the like, what's wrong with that? If kids want to have it as Christmas, then fine, but everyone should be allowed to partake in this, and unless the school is 100% of a faith, then it isn't going to happen.

I loved the nativity play, the Christmas carols, the Christmas card making, the Christmas tree, and so on. My parents are atheists and I'm agnostic, but I still loved the stories about Jesus and the nativity and all the rest, and I still do. I don't think I want it all taken out of Christmas just because some people don't believe in it. There is little to take offence at in these traditions and they harm no-one, so I'd prefer them to stay, and those that don't like them need not attend.

So you're not offended by it so it's okay?

What if you had Muslim holidays and went through all of that, would you be offended? Maybe not. But how many right wingers do you think WOULD BE offended by it?

This is the point. If people would not accept one thing, why should minorities be forced to accept the majority?

Again, does religion have a place in schools? Education is about learning REAL THINGS.

I personally would not like to see Islamic holidays celebrated in regular schools. I'm not sure how this all works in the US, but in Europe there are muslim schools for families who want to stick with their beliefs and not be involved with anything other than Islamic rites and traditions. I would not want my children being exposed to the ceremonies of a religion that honours a man who waged war, married a nine year old, practiced deceit and murdered people. I might not be religious myself, but I do emphatically believe Jesus and his message is a much better example to expose children to. I don't really understand how anyone, other than a Muslim, could have a problem with that. I fully appreciate that you are going to despise this post. Sorry.

What I get from this post, in summary : "I only want those religious celebrations I like to be allowed in schools".

So you'd like your children to be exposed to a religion where its founder was a warrior who pillaged, enslaved, married a child and murdered people. Well I'm afraid I don't want that at all, and I make no apology for it.

The only religious exposure I would want my children to have in school, at least from the teachers, would be in an historical or social sciences way. In that context I have no problem at all with Islam being discussed like any other religion.