The 50 most developed countries in the world and Universal Healthcare.

[Taz]

Universal health care is coming to the US. It's just a matter of time.

You know why?

Because the GOP has never offered a comprehensive solution to skyrocketing health care costs.

That's right, over 50% of Americans support Universal Healthcare. Universal Healthcare is coming to the United States whether these anti-healthcare types like it or not.

That's wrong. Over 50% of Americans will give approval when you say, "Should healthcare be a right?" When you switch from warm, fuzzy, vague emotions to facts and tell them that it would require higher taxes, or that they personally might not be able to choose to stay with their private insurance, suddenly the approval rates plummet.

Which begs the question: If it's so wonderful, and so many people want it, how come you have to lie to them to get them to agree?

No one is being untruthful. Universal Healthcare is one the way to the U.S.A.. Support is rising. The people who will be paying the most taxes for it are in the top 20% of income earners, Not the majority where 80% of America lives. Universal Healthcare is the trend for the most developed countries in the world. 45 of the 50 most developed countries have Universal Healthcare. The United States is the oddball in that group along with Cyprus, U.A.E., Bahrain, and Qatar that does not provide Universal Healthcare.

I can't tell you how valuable your responses are when they utterly ignore the entire post they're responding to, except for one sentence. I can't tell you how valuable they are, because they aren't.

As for "no one is being untruthful", the pollsters are with their carefully-pruned, leading questions. And you are right now. Do NOT give me that "You should like universal healthcare because YOU won't have to pay for it. We're going to stick it to those eeeeeevil rich people, who owe you for some unspecified, unknowable reason." Save it for ignorant losers like yourself. I don't want anyone else's money, and I sure as shit do not want to become a ward of the state to get it.

Also, there is no number of times you are going to spout that peer pressure "Other countries are doing it, and so that makes it GOOD" bullshit that's going to mean anything to me. Unlike you, I'm not a teenager, and I don't think like one. In fact, I wasn't susceptible to peer pressure when I WAS a teenager, and I certainly am not now.

I like that the United States is an "oddball" and stands out as different from other countries. That's why WE'RE the leader and not the followers.

Are all women with really hairy bushes this grumpy, or is it just you?

 

[U2Edge]

Don't have to. These little individual examples, whether they are true or not, are irrelevant. What matters is the overall averages on life expectancy and the countries that provide Universal Healthcare. Look FRANCE, GERMANY, SWEDEN, NORWAY, ITALY etc. Most people in the top 50 most developed countries in the world stay in their own countries when it comes to healthcare. At least 34 of those countries citizens live longer than Americans on average. One's personal experience, or some off hand example will not change that reality.

You are right. Those little examples true or not are irrelevent to you because you haven’t had to address them yet, or you have enough money that it’s just not an issue to you. Same for all the rich people in Europe, Canada or wherever you want. When the crap hits the fan they come here to the US for major treatments. If this is so awesome, who don’t American polititions enter the program with the rest of us? And why don’t rich people in Europe go into their government health care systems?

The vast majority of people, rich or poor, in Europe, use their own countries healthcare. On average they live longer than Americans. Were talking about National policy here. What is best for the most people. We can't bend a national policy for 300 million people because it might be better for this particular individual or that particular individual. We have to do what is best for the country as a whole.

You're lying, and you know you're lying.

Know how I can tell? Because you make statements without proof, and when you're asked to prove them, you just stuff your fingers in your ears and say them again.

If your bullshit was worth anything, you wouldn't have to lie about it.

You can see for yourself that 43 countries have longer average life expectancies than we do: Life Expectancy for Countries

Probably. Do they consume tobacco, alcohol and illicit drugs like Americans do? Lots of stuff factors into stats for anything and everything. This debate here is opinion backed by facts we choose to support our individual points. Fact is, many other countries most wealthy supporters of government health care come here to be treated for serious illnesses. American rich people and political elite don’t use the exchange. They don’t because they know it sucks.

Europeans actually drink and smoke at rates higher than the average American. Europeans don't have the strong southern Protestant, Baptist, and Morman faiths that frown on drinking and smoking.

 

[U2Edge]

Universal health care is coming to the US. It's just a matter of time.

You know why?

Because the GOP has never offered a comprehensive solution to skyrocketing health care costs.

That's right, over 50% of Americans support Universal Healthcare. Universal Healthcare is coming to the United States whether these anti-healthcare types like it or not.

That's wrong.

Actually, 70 percent of Americans support Medicare for all.

70% probably support free booze too. Everyone likes free stuff, but the hard cold truth is that nothing is free. Do you really want your medical care decided by a marginally intelligent GS5 sitting in a cubicle in bangla desh? Because that's what you are asking for, and if you don't think the admin of it would be outsourced you are dumber than I thought.

American Business's, the largest in fact, outsource a lot of their operations to third world countries. Not the U.S. government.

 

[danielpalos]

Free shave or wax jobs! Mostly nice guys, do!

 

[U2Edge]

Universal health care is coming to the US. It's just a matter of time.

You know why?

Because the GOP has never offered a comprehensive solution to skyrocketing health care costs.

That's right, over 50% of Americans support Universal Healthcare. Universal Healthcare is coming to the United States whether these anti-healthcare types like it or not.

That's wrong. Over 50% of Americans will give approval when you say, "Should healthcare be a right?" When you switch from warm, fuzzy, vague emotions to facts and tell them that it would require higher taxes, or that they personally might not be able to choose to stay with their private insurance, suddenly the approval rates plummet.

Which begs the question: If it's so wonderful, and so many people want it, how come you have to lie to them to get them to agree?

No one is being untruthful. Universal Healthcare is one the way to the U.S.A.. Support is rising. The people who will be paying the most taxes for it are in the top 20% of income earners, Not the majority where 80% of America lives. Universal Healthcare is the trend for the most developed countries in the world. 45 of the 50 most developed countries have Universal Healthcare. The United States is the oddball in that group along with Cyprus, U.A.E., Bahrain, and Qatar that does not provide Universal Healthcare.

I can't tell you how valuable your responses are when they utterly ignore the entire post they're responding to, except for one sentence. I can't tell you how valuable they are, because they aren't.

As for "no one is being untruthful", the pollsters are with their carefully-pruned, leading questions. And you are right now. Do NOT give me that "You should like universal healthcare because YOU won't have to pay for it. We're going to stick it to those eeeeeevil rich people, who owe you for some unspecified, unknowable reason." Save it for ignorant losers like yourself. I don't want anyone else's money, and I sure as shit do not want to become a ward of the state to get it.

Also, there is no number of times you are going to spout that peer pressure "Other countries are doing it, and so that makes it GOOD" bullshit that's going to mean anything to me. Unlike you, I'm not a teenager, and I don't think like one. In fact, I wasn't susceptible to peer pressure when I WAS a teenager, and I certainly am not now.

I like that the United States is an "oddball" and stands out as different from other countries. That's why WE'RE the leader and not the followers.

We don't want to be a leader in NOT providing healthcare for our citizens, when compared with the other 50 most developed countries.

We don't want to be a leader in having one of the lowest average life expectancies among the 50 most developed countries in the world.

We don't want to be a leader in having the most expensive healthcare system in the world which we currently do.

Why would you advocate being a leader in those three NEGATIVE things?

 

[U2Edge]

Universal health care is coming to the US. It's just a matter of time.

You know why?

Because the GOP has never offered a comprehensive solution to skyrocketing health care costs.

That's right, over 50% of Americans support Universal Healthcare. Universal Healthcare is coming to the United States whether these anti-healthcare types like it or not.

That's wrong.

Actually, 70 percent of Americans support Medicare for all.

Lol
Where did you get that number from? And even if it was true what about the millions of Americans that want no part of it?

You will not find a single real conservative that wants any part a Medicare for all, you stupid ass motherfucker... shut the fuck up

Richard Nixon supported Universal Healthcare!

 

[Crixus]

Let me ask you this:

Timely Medical | Timely Surgery at Affordable Prices

This is a company. It's a company operating out of Canada. The entire purpose of this company, is to setup patient, primarily in Canada, with doctors and hospitals in the US.

They charge money, obviously to provide this service.
This is an additional charge to the cost of getting whatever treatment or surgery they get in the US.

The company was started by a Canadian doctor, who was fed up watching patients die while waiting.

So my question to you is this.....

Canada has universal care, that is "free". Please explain to me how Timely medical can find enough consistent flow of customers, willing to pay thousands of dollars for surgery in the US, and to pay them to set them up for that surgery.... if those same customers can all get surgery for 'free'?

If government run health care is so great in Canada, how can this company started by a Canadian doctor, end up with thousands of customers every year willing to pay for health care? How can they find enough people willing to spend thousands of dollar for health care, to escape their Canadian system if it is so great?

Can you explain that to me?

Don't have to. These little individual examples, whether they are true or not, are irrelevant. What matters is the overall averages on life expectancy and the countries that provide Universal Healthcare. Look FRANCE, GERMANY, SWEDEN, NORWAY, ITALY etc. Most people in the top 50 most developed countries in the world stay in their own countries when it comes to healthcare. At least 34 of those countries citizens live longer than Americans on average. One's personal experience, or some off hand example will not change that reality.

You are right. Those little examples true or not are irrelevent to you because you haven’t had to address them yet, or you have enough money that it’s just not an issue to you. Same for all the rich people in Europe, Canada or wherever you want. When the crap hits the fan they come here to the US for major treatments. If this is so awesome, who don’t American polititions enter the program with the rest of us? And why don’t rich people in Europe go into their government health care systems?

The vast majority of people, rich or poor, in Europe, use their own countries healthcare. On average they live longer than Americans. Were talking about National policy here. What is best for the most people. We can't bend a national policy for 300 million people because it might be better for this particular individual or that particular individual. We have to do what is best for the country as a whole.

You're lying, and you know you're lying.

Know how I can tell? Because you make statements without proof, and when you're asked to prove them, you just stuff your fingers in your ears and say them again.

If your bullshit was worth anything, you wouldn't have to lie about it.

I didn't lie about anything. I know the truth can be surprising sometimes, but that does not mean you should lash out at other people. Remain polite and civil when posting.

First off, leave it to the mods to moderate. Secondly, yes, you are lying when you claim everyone in America is dying because they can’t get medical care. You are injecting emotion into the debate next to the lie. You aren’t here to debate you are here to push an opinion, one which you have zero experience dealing with other then what you see on TV.

 

[Crixus]

One doesn’t have to pay for medical care here. I just posted one of many ways to acquire expensive medication. And medicade covers doctors. I’m with the other poster. Please provide cases where people have died from lack of medical care here.

-The problem is that would be anecdotal evidence now wouldn't it? Something that the other poster has made clear she does not want. I have such an example by the way.
-So I'll do a simple example. How Much Does A Colonoscopy Cost?
It says that doing a colonoscopy costs 3000 dollar without insurance. Suffice to say that not a lot of people who haven't got insurance will pay that amount. Colon cancer causes about 50000 deaths annually in the US.
-Here everybody is insured and no costs are charged for doing these sorts of screenings. You don't think not having universal healthcare costs lives?

You logic like a little kid. "If medical care was just given away free, EVERYONE would have it and no one would die!"

Adult logic tells you that if medical care wasn't profitable to the people providing it, no one would provide it. Which is essentially where "universal healthcare" countries end up heading.

Here's a question for you: how lifesaving is a "free" colonoscopy if you have to wait so long to get it that the colon cancer is inoperable by the time you do?

So no, "A colonoscopy costs $3000 without insurance, so that means that people without insurance don't get them, and all colon cancer deaths in the US are because people couldn't get colonoscopies!" does not follow in any mind but the most puerile.

Once again, I have proof and you have blank assertions with lots of stuff left out.

Colorectal Cancer - Cancer Stat Facts
Bowel cancer statistics

Estimated deaths from colorectal cancer in the US in 2018: 50,630 - 8.1% of all cancer deaths.
Estimated deaths from colorectal cancer in the UK in 2016: 16,000 - 10% of all cancer deaths.

Survival rate in the US: 64.5%
Survival rate in the UK: 57%

Even granting that the two websites - and the two countries - measure and report their stats in different ways, it really doesn't look to me like your splendiferous "everybody is insured" is actually giving you any better results.

-Medical care isn't given away for free anywhere. The difference being that in Belgium as in most other countries it is funded to a larger extent out of public funds as opposed to America which has a larger percentage of cost payed out of personal funds. It is a straw man. It's this disconnect so many people have about what taxes are. For some reason once a person pays taxes for a service, a lot of people no longer perceive that service as something they payed for but something that is given. Another part of that is that the government if they take a more active role in healthcare they are better able to regulate the costs. Something they are simply in a better position to do since they do not have to generate profit.
As to the UK. As I pointed out I don't speak for other countries.

That’s where you misunderstand. You read that somewhere or saw it on TV. And on paper it’s true. No Americans have to go without medical treatment. That’s just a lie.

And many go bankrupt trying to pay for it.

So?

 

[U2Edge]

That's right, over 50% of Americans support Universal Healthcare. Universal Healthcare is coming to the United States whether these anti-healthcare types like it or not.

That's wrong.

Actually, 70 percent of Americans support Medicare for all.

70% probably support free booze too. Everyone likes free stuff, but the hard cold truth is that nothing is free. Do you really want your medical care decided by a marginally intelligent GS5 sitting in a cubicle in bangla desh? Because that's what you are asking for, and if you don't think the admin of it would be outsourced you are dumber than I thought.

Can you show me which UHC countries outsource their health care decisions to Bangladesh?


Thanks.

can you tell me which of those countries have 330,000,000 people and 20 million illegals? Comparing the US to Norway is like comparing a mouse to an elephant.

Well, then lets compare the 300,000,000 million people who live in Germany, Spain, Italy, United Kingdom and France to the United States. Would you consider that fair?

 

[Crixus]

Let me ask you this:

Timely Medical | Timely Surgery at Affordable Prices

This is a company. It's a company operating out of Canada. The entire purpose of this company, is to setup patient, primarily in Canada, with doctors and hospitals in the US.

They charge money, obviously to provide this service.
This is an additional charge to the cost of getting whatever treatment or surgery they get in the US.

The company was started by a Canadian doctor, who was fed up watching patients die while waiting.

So my question to you is this.....

Canada has universal care, that is "free". Please explain to me how Timely medical can find enough consistent flow of customers, willing to pay thousands of dollars for surgery in the US, and to pay them to set them up for that surgery.... if those same customers can all get surgery for 'free'?

If government run health care is so great in Canada, how can this company started by a Canadian doctor, end up with thousands of customers every year willing to pay for health care? How can they find enough people willing to spend thousands of dollar for health care, to escape their Canadian system if it is so great?

Can you explain that to me?

Don't have to. These little individual examples, whether they are true or not, are irrelevant. What matters is the overall averages on life expectancy and the countries that provide Universal Healthcare. Look FRANCE, GERMANY, SWEDEN, NORWAY, ITALY etc. Most people in the top 50 most developed countries in the world stay in their own countries when it comes to healthcare. At least 34 of those countries citizens live longer than Americans on average. One's personal experience, or some off hand example will not change that reality.

You are right. Those little examples true or not are irrelevent to you because you haven’t had to address them yet, or you have enough money that it’s just not an issue to you. Same for all the rich people in Europe, Canada or wherever you want. When the crap hits the fan they come here to the US for major treatments. If this is so awesome, who don’t American polititions enter the program with the rest of us? And why don’t rich people in Europe go into their government health care systems?

The vast majority of people, rich or poor, in Europe, use their own countries healthcare. On average they live longer than Americans. Were talking about National policy here. What is best for the most people. We can't bend a national policy for 300 million people because it might be better for this particular individual or that particular individual. We have to do what is best for the country as a whole.

You're lying, and you know you're lying.

Know how I can tell? Because you make statements without proof, and when you're asked to prove them, you just stuff your fingers in your ears and say them again.

If your bullshit was worth anything, you wouldn't have to lie about it.

I didn't lie about anything. I know the truth can be surprising sometimes, but that does not mean you should lash out at other people. Remain polite and civil when posting.

Show some truth and maybe I’ll be surprised. All you have presented here in the political forum are political talking points.

 

[U2Edge]

I'm opposed to UHC, by the way. I've made that very clear over the years. I have also taken great pains many times to describe what I believe we need to do to reform health care and have LESS government in our health care.

Unfortunately, I have done more than the Republican party in this respect. Because the Republicans have done NOTHING. For DECADES.

And that is why we are going to end up with UHC sooner or later.

The dumb rubes were fucking stupid enough to bleev the GOP's horseshit that they would repeal and replace Obamacare if they were given all the power. Then, once the rubes gave the GOP all the power, the stupid fucks STILL didn't catch on they were hoaxed when the Republicans once again did NOTHING. They never even wrote a bill to repeal Obamacare, much less replace it.

So the dumb fucking cucks deserve UHC.

America does not need any type of socialized medicine/healthcare...
It’s far too costly, it’s far too ineffective, and it’s all about control nothing to do with healthcare

Well, In Europe they spend on average about 1/2 to 2/3s of what we do on healthcare. So its cheaper.

Its also more effective, because people live longer in Europe than they do in the United States.

Everyone gets taken care of. It cost less! People live longer! Three reasons right there to support Universal Healthcare.

 

[U2Edge]

Actually, 70 percent of Americans support Medicare for all.

70% probably support free booze too. Everyone likes free stuff, but the hard cold truth is that nothing is free. Do you really want your medical care decided by a marginally intelligent GS5 sitting in a cubicle in bangla desh? Because that's what you are asking for, and if you don't think the admin of it would be outsourced you are dumber than I thought.

Can you show me which UHC countries outsource their health care decisions to Bangladesh?


Thanks.

can you tell me which of those countries have 330,000,000 people and 20 million illegals? Comparing the US to Norway is like comparing a mouse to an elephant.

What does the size of the population have to do with anything?

Man, that's one of the lamest dodges I've ever seen!

It has everything to do with it. We are a very diverse country, the Scandinavian countries are like big extended families, the all look the same, think the same and have the same value systems.

you want UHC because you think it will be free to you, IT WONT be FREE. the Scandinavians pay 55-70% in income taxes and everyone pays it, unlike here where 50% pay nothing. And if you ask them, or Canadians, or brits about their UHC they will tell you that they don't like it because they have to wait for treatment and what treatment they get is determined by the government. Ask Canadians why they come to the US with any serious medical conditions, ask why 30% of the patients at Mayo clinic are Canadians.

Europeans especially Scandinavians have progressive tax rates where the rich pay far more in tax than those in the middle class and lower class. Filthy Rich people still live in Sweden and have plenty of luxury despite the heavy tax rates they pay. Just look at the members of the rock band Abba. They all still live in Sweden despite the tax rates they pay.

In the United States, the rich don't like the idea of Universal Health care because it means their tax rates may go from 37% to 70%. 70% was the rate the rich were paying back in the 1970s and 1960s. When IKE was President the rich were paying 80% in tax.

 

[U2Edge]

You are not a "developed" country if you have a system where you steal the money made by some people and use it to pay the health care bills of other people that didn't earn the money.

That is state sponsored thievery.

Wrong, because people EARN money from the MARKET! The MARKET decides your salary and how much your house is worth, NOT you. You did not create the market, you were born into it. Those who benefit most from the market are required to pay a higher percentage of their earnings in taxes in order to help build and sustain the market. The market needs to be defended from foreign invasion and it needs law and order to operate efficiently which is provided by a government.

Tell you what, move to Somalia where there is no government to "steal your earnings" and see how you like it.

You are confused Moon Bat.

I earned money because I fucking worked for a living. It is morally wrong for the oppressive government to steal that money from me and give it to some filthy ass welfare queen or illegal. You know, a ghetto Democrat voter.

Moon Bats like you have a hard time understanding things like that, don't you?

Instead of me going to Somalia to get lesser government how about you getting your fat commie ass down to Venezuela to how that socialism is working out? Send us a card.

How about this Moon Bat. I'll pay my bills and you pay yours. Isn't that fair or are you some greedy asshole who thinks that you have the right to demand that I pay your bills simply because you are alive?

Fuck socialism. Fuck universal health care. Fuck greedy worthless Moon Bats that are too sorry to pay for their own health care.

If you worked In the United States, then you were either employed by someone or if you had your own business it was dependent on people buying your services or products. Either way, your earnings came from THE MARKET. A market you were born into. A market that you exploited and profited from. Which is fine, as long as you pay the government back in taxes at a rate based on your earnings in order to protect the market and keep it going for future generations.

You are confused as hell Moon Bat.

When I was sitting in Engineering school learning calculus and other hard things I sure as hell didn't have some ghetto welfare queen helping me to get educated so I would be employable.

When I was working on projects 70 hours a week there weren't any fucking Illegals there helping me so I could go home and spend some time with my family.

I sure as hell should not be required by an oppressive and thieving government to pay the bills of those assholes that didn't do a damn thing to help me earn my money.

Socialism is evil and oppressive. It is legalized thievery. It is just as wrong when the government steals my money as if it was Tony Soprano. Socialism is state sponsored slavery and it is despicable.

You pay your bills and I will pay mine. I don't owe you jackshit. If you are some greedy little asshole that thinks I should owe you something just because you are alive then you are one sick puppy.

Let me guess. You are unwilling to earn your own way and support that filthy Green initiative that guarentees income to the unwilling. Am I right or am I right?

TAXATION IS NOT SOCIALISM! TAXATION IS NECESSARY FOR THE UNITED STATES TO SURVIVE. TAXATION IS NECESSARY FOR THE U.S. MARKET TO SURVIVE. You earned your money in the U.S. market. The U.S. market system decided how much money you were paid and how much your house was worth. When you earn money in the United States, you are required to pay taxes! Without that tax money, the United States market economy and society would not survive. That market economy and society needs a military to defend it and a government to keep internal law and order. Without that, the country and market where you earned your money would soon cease to exist.

 

[U2Edge]

The rich derive their wealth not just from annual income. Its also there in form of capital gains, estate, property etc. The top 20% of income earners have 80% of the wealth, wealth here being far more than just annual income. The bottom 80% of only 20% of the wealth. So yes, the rich can afford to pay a lot more in taxes and it won't hurt the economy and will greatly benefit the country.

You also need to factor in how much consumer spending do households with an income of 250K or more do. Consumer spending is 70% of economic growth. These 2,238,000 households probably do go to the movies, out to eat, shopping, and other basic things that drive most economic growth. But their consumer spending on these things is a tiny fraction of what the other 113,000,000 households who make less than 250K are doing. You want to keep the taxes low on those doing the most consumer spending which in this case is the 113,000,000 households making less than 250K a year. You can gradually increase taxes on the group making over 250K a year for two reasons: 1. they typically don't reduce their consumer spending when their taxes are increased unlike the middle and lower classes. 2. Even if they did, their contribution to basic consumer spending is much less than the 113,000,000 million households making less than 250K.

You're a LIAR!

List of Countries with Universal Healthcare

No, I'm not. Look at the map in the link:

Here's a Map of the Countries That Provide Universal Health Care (America's Still Not on It) - The Atlantic

The latest UN Human Development Index can be found here:

List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia

I gave You a link. You lied. It’s not truly Universal in these countries. Liar.

I responded with multiple links to show you that is not true. You failed to look at them.

What? I don’t need links I know the truth. I dont Need a link to know Berlin is the capital of Germany. So Germany does NOT have universal healthcare

Germany does have Universal Healthcare as does Italy, France, United Kingdom and many other countries. They don't leave anyone behind like the United States does. People don't go bankrupt in Germany from medical bills. People live longer in Germany, everyone is provided for, and they spend less on healthcare per person than the United States does. Those are the FACTS!

 

[Crixus]

You are right. Those little examples true or not are irrelevent to you because you haven’t had to address them yet, or you have enough money that it’s just not an issue to you. Same for all the rich people in Europe, Canada or wherever you want. When the crap hits the fan they come here to the US for major treatments. If this is so awesome, who don’t American polititions enter the program with the rest of us? And why don’t rich people in Europe go into their government health care systems?

The vast majority of people, rich or poor, in Europe, use their own countries healthcare. On average they live longer than Americans. Were talking about National policy here. What is best for the most people. We can't bend a national policy for 300 million people because it might be better for this particular individual or that particular individual. We have to do what is best for the country as a whole.

You're lying, and you know you're lying.

Know how I can tell? Because you make statements without proof, and when you're asked to prove them, you just stuff your fingers in your ears and say them again.

If your bullshit was worth anything, you wouldn't have to lie about it.

You can see for yourself that 43 countries have longer average life expectancies than we do: Life Expectancy for Countries

Probably. Do they consume tobacco, alcohol and illicit drugs like Americans do? Lots of stuff factors into stats for anything and everything. This debate here is opinion backed by facts we choose to support our individual points. Fact is, many other countries most wealthy supporters of government health care come here to be treated for serious illnesses. American rich people and political elite don’t use the exchange. They don’t because they know it sucks.

Europeans actually drink and smoke at rates higher than the average American. Europeans don't have the strong southern Protestant, Baptist, and Morman faiths that frown on drinking and smoking.

I did not know that, but I can say as a reformed Baptist that they smoke like choo choos here. Maybe we can agree on this. Many times people here are having chronic conditions resulting from smoking and drinking. Maybe we rework how the treatment for those things works? Also, experimental drugs. Going back to the condition I addressed, those drugs were just out of testing. I had to wait a year for them, yet in Europe they had been avalible for about a year and a half. Maybe address the costs of treatment and drugs. Obamacare failed at both. America just isn’t Europe.

 

[U2Edge]

Again, 45 out of the 50 most developed countries in the world are already providing Universal Healthcare for all their citizens Employers in these countries don't have to worry about providing healthcare for their employees. So that actually helps business, especially many small business's.

A for profit healthcare system that allows and industry to profit off of people being sick and ill is not a good system. Its why healthcare cost grow over year and it is bankrupting the country. Healthcare cost right now are on an annual basis are over 22% of annual GDP. Compare that to spending on the military which is only 4% of GDP.

Its time that the United States adopt a healthcare system that is ubiquitous in the developed world. The evidence shows that such a system increases life expectancy, covers everyone, and on average cost about half as much as our system. Its one sector of the economy, not the entire economy by any means.

As far as taxes go, when IKE was President, the top federal tax rate each year he was President was 80% or more. Today its only 37%. In 1990, the top federal tax rate was 28%. This was increase by Bush and then increased by Clinton up to 40%. After that you had the ECONOMIC BOOM of the late 1990s. Raising taxes on the rich at these levels does not hurt the economy. The evidence for that is widespread. Yes, keep taxes low for the 90% of the workers who make less than $100,000 a year. But over that level, it needs to be gradually increased, especially once you get to the millionaire and billionaire levels. From 1945 to 1980, the top federal tax rate every year was always above 70%. U.S. economic growth from 1945 to 1980 was much stronger then, than it has been since then, especially since the year 2000.

The top 20% of income earners in the country have 80% of the wealth. The bottom 80% have only 20% of the wealth. Yet, most consumer spending is done by the bottom 80% of income earners. That is why you want to keep the bottom 80% of income earners taxes low. Consumer spending is 70% of what drives real quarterly GDP growth. The lower class and middle class do most of the consumer spending. That's why their taxes need to remain low or even cut. The Rich though typically don't change their level of consumer spending based on their tax rate, another great benefit of being rich. The rich don't go to the movies and out to eat less when their taxes get raised. That's why you can increase tax rates on the rich without hurting the economy.

How would you pay for it. Of those 45 countries how many have even close to the population of the US?

The United States is the wealthiest country in the world. 3rd wealthiest per capita. So the size of the US population is not a problem since the United States has more wealth per capita than all those countries except two. The fact is, these countries have LESS wealth per capita than the United States, yet they still provide Universal Healthcare for their citizens. In terms of population and wealth, its easier for the United States to provide Universal Healthcare than it is for these other countries.

It’s less about money and more about supply and demand. If MDs aren’t being paid why would people
Still want to pay the money to become MDs. In those countries you listed, is the education free?

Its called caring for people. I'd prefer a doctor who was more interested in me and my health outcome than one who was just interested in cashing a pay check.

Unrealistic. Sorry you live in a fantasy world.

Nope, that is more the environment in Europe. Its better for healthcare where the system is geared toward caring for people rather than profits.

Its rather obvious all the terrible things that can happen when you allow people to make PROFITS on people being sick. Don't worry though, Universal Healthcare is coming to the U.S.A. and when it does the country will be better off.

 

[U2Edge]

Seventy percent of Americans support 'Medicare for all' in new poll

Until they find out how much it costs.

As I have pointed out at least twice in this topic so far, we currently spend $3.5 trillion a year on health care. That's $35 trillion over ten years.

So when UHC proponents say it will cost $32 trillion over ten years...so what? That's less than what we are paying now!

Except people aren't looking at it at a macro level. They are saying, "Yeah, I think everyone should have health care" until you tell them their income tax will go up 20 to 30% to pay for it and they may no longer have private insurance and then their support for it does a 180.

A government take over of health care isn't the way to fix the cost unless you're willing to sacrifice quality. The way to deal with the cost is to reintroduce market forces into the sector, which are fairly nonexistent these days.

The fact is, in Europe, everyone has healthcare. Their average life expectancy is longer than here in the United States. They only spend 1/2 to 2/3s per person what we spend on healthcare. BETTER QUALITY, LESS COSTLY, EVERYONE GETS PROVIDED FOR! That's the European model.

 

[U2Edge]

The United States ranks 34th in the world in terms of Life Expectancy. That's despite the fact that the United States spend more on healthcare than any country in the world. Yet despite all that spending, the United States is not taking care of all of its citizens like the rest of the world is and essentially has a different system of care for those that are rich vs lower class. HOW IS THAT SMART?

Explain how our ranking in life expectancy is related to our health care system?

Healthcare saves lives which naturally increases the average life expectancy in a country.

Except it doesn't work that way. The reason American life expectancy is less than many of our counterparts is we have higher rates of automobile fatalities, we have higher rates of death due to poor eating habits and lack of exercise (Americans are fat and lazy) and we have higher rates of drug related deaths. None of that has anything to do with our health care system. It has to do with poor cultural habits.

With Universal Healthcare, people would have better access to doctors, nurses and others that could give advise and help with the conditions you describe. It would have a dramatic effect on U.S. life expectancy. The reason U.S. life expectancy is low, is that it gets brought down by those who live in poverty or near the poverty level and don't have access to low cost quality food and healthcare. It makes a huge differences in the averages and is why the United States continues to lag behind so many other countries in the developed world in life expectancy.

The evidence is obvious. Universal Healthcare would benefit millions of people in the lower class and in poverty in the United States. It would improve U.S. life expectancy and standard of living. Its the right, moral thing to do for people and the country as a whole will benefit. Yet, because some people are blinded by outdated ideology, they will not support the common sense thing to do to help people.

And when it bankrupts the country, like it did Greece, and you see hundreds of people sitting on the sidewalk outside their closed 'free' healthcare clinic.... do explain how much it benefited them.

The healthcare system in Greece is not what brought that country down. Even if it was, it would be a minor exception. By the way, people in Greece live longer than people in the United States. Everyone in Greece has Healthcare. GREECE also spends less than half of what the United States does on healthcare as a percentage of annual GDP.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You're British? Well, you have the healthcare system you deserve - one of the worst in the industrialized world.

The average Brit lives longer than the average American.

Yeah, like 6 months longer.

When it comes to average life expectancy, that is significant. Plus they do it at a lower cost and everyone is provided healthcare. Win, win, and win.

No, no, and no.

So you say no to providing everyone healthcare. You say no to lower cost healthcare. You say no to increased life expectancy. You say no to a lot of good things.

English is really not your strong point, is it?

You made three points and called them each "wins". I responded to each point with "no". This does not give you license to stick YOUR words in my mouth and declare that I'm saying what YOU want to believe I'm saying.

No, healthcare systems do not have a significant impact on life expectancy rates. No, "universal healthcare" does not have a lower cost, and no, everyone is not provided healthcare. Health COVERAGE, perhaps, but that's not the same thing.

 

[U2Edge]

Well, I love my country, and I think that once it has Universal Healthcare, the countries life expectancy and standard of living will dramatically increase. It will be good for the United States and will actually make the country stronger. The other countries on the list are of systems of healthcare that work. They cost less, cover everyone, and increase life expectancy. If someone does something better than you, you should try to emulate them or find a way to equal or top them.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...dians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care


Crossing the Border for Care
Frustrated by long waits, some Canadians are heading to the U.S. for medical treatment.



Why do they come here if it’s so good in Canada ? Are you just not going to answer? Name a country and people from that country come here to receive treatment for cancer and major illnesses. Why?

Its the assumption that the wealthiest country in the world has the best healthcare. The same assumption that drives people to go the hospital as best in the country. The reality though is much different.

Were not talking about the few with money who choose to travel because they believe something is better. Were talking about average life expectancy in each country and which countries are providing their citizens with Universal Healthcare. Most Europeans do not go to America to get healthcare. They stay in their countries and on average live longer than Americans. That last fact is by FAR the most relevant.

Let me ask you this:

Timely Medical | Timely Surgery at Affordable Prices

This is a company. It's a company operating out of Canada. The entire purpose of this company, is to setup patient, primarily in Canada, with doctors and hospitals in the US.

They charge money, obviously to provide this service.
This is an additional charge to the cost of getting whatever treatment or surgery they get in the US.

The company was started by a Canadian doctor, who was fed up watching patients die while waiting.

So my question to you is this.....

Canada has universal care, that is "free". Please explain to me how Timely medical can find enough consistent flow of customers, willing to pay thousands of dollars for surgery in the US, and to pay them to set them up for that surgery.... if those same customers can all get surgery for 'free'?

If government run health care is so great in Canada, how can this company started by a Canadian doctor, end up with thousands of customers every year willing to pay for health care? How can they find enough people willing to spend thousands of dollar for health care, to escape their Canadian system if it is so great?

Can you explain that to me?

Don't have to. These little individual examples, whether they are true or not, are irrelevant. What matters is the overall averages on life expectancy and the countries that provide Universal Healthcare. Look FRANCE, GERMANY, SWEDEN, NORWAY, ITALY etc. Most people in the top 50 most developed countries in the world stay in their own countries when it comes to healthcare. At least 34 of those countries citizens live longer than Americans on average. One's personal experience, or some off hand example will not change that reality.

France, where doctors went on strike for weeks, and people were left without care, not to mention people died of heat stroke in hospitals during a heat wave years back.

Germany, has a system of private insurance, the nearly all people are part of.

Moreover, nearly all those countries have double our tax rate.

Which is more expensive: Current insurance premiums, or a 50% tax rate on the middle class?

And yes, the fact is, if you want to support your argument, then you do have to explain why people come from all over the world from their 'free health care' systems, to pay for health care here.

If you can't, then whether you admit it, or believe it, you have undeniably lost the argument that free government care is better.

SOME PEOPLE come to the United States for healthcare. Some. Its a tiny percentage and not proof that the United States healthcare system is better.

Healthcare cost in Europe are about 1/2 to 2/3s of what they are in the United States. The Quality is better because the people there live longer. Everyone there is provided for. Its the three BIG WINS!

The United States can get the taxes it needs for Universal Healthcare from the top 20% of income earners who have 80% of the wealth in the country. Capital Gains, Property, Estate and other things besides just income will need to see increased tax rates. The Middle Class will only be lightly effected if at all by the increased tax rates. The lower class and the poor won't have to pay anything.