The best case a lay person can make against AGW

[Old Rocks]

Geologists, until the paradigm shift of plate tectonics, were the stamp collectors of science. They collected rocks, and mapped the surface, but had no reasonable explanation for what they were seeing. It was not until the mathematicians and physicists did the seismic data and the measured the magnetic stripes off the Straight of Juan de Fuca that we began to see the real workings of geology. Seismic tomography gave us the mapping of the deep subsurface. All of this was done by Geophysicists. And all the results are but models. Nobody has been down to look at a subduction zone. Nobody has seen the magma chamber of the Yellowstone Hot Spot. So, the over arching theory of geology, plate tectonics, depends on models created from indirect data.

Now, we can see the atmosphere in action. We can measure, directly, the chemical composition of the atmosphere, we can measure it's temperature and pressure directly. So, as a matter of fact, climatology is a far more exact science then geology. Because we are making direct observations of the matter that we are talking about. Whereas, in geology, we are indirectly measuring all the major players in the theory.

 

[westwall]

I see geology and climatology as simply the studies of large bodies of matter, solid and gaseous. I see no grounds for calling one inexact and one exact.

That's because you are scientifically illiterate.

Here are the definitions for you.



Definition of exact science

1. 
   : a science (as physics, chemistry, or astronomy) whose laws are capable of accurate quantitative expression
   

Definition of EXACT SCIENCE





soft science

• Word Origin

noun
1.
any of the specialized fields or disciplines, as psychology, sociology,anthropology, or political science, that interpret human behavior,institutions, society, etc., on the basis of scientific investigations forwhich it may be difficult to establish strictly measurable criteria.

the definition of soft science




Geology is a exact science in that everything we do is MEASURABLE. Climatology is a soft science in that the majority of it's conclusions are NOT measurable. They are OPINION. Hence the "consensus OPINION of climatology scientists is....." See the difference?

 

[westwall]

Geologists, until the paradigm shift of plate tectonics, were the stamp collectors of science. They collected rocks, and mapped the surface, but had no reasonable explanation for what they were seeing. It was not until the mathematicians and physicists did the seismic data and the measured the magnetic stripes off the Straight of Juan de Fuca that we began to see the real workings of geology. Seismic tomography gave us the mapping of the deep subsurface. All of this was done by Geophysicists. And all the results are but models. Nobody has been down to look at a subduction zone. Nobody has seen the magma chamber of the Yellowstone Hot Spot. So, the over arching theory of geology, plate tectonics, depends on models created from indirect data.

Now, we can see the atmosphere in action. We can measure, directly, the chemical composition of the atmosphere, we can measure it's temperature and pressure directly. So, as a matter of fact, climatology is a far more exact science then geology. Because we are making direct observations of the matter that we are talking about. Whereas, in geology, we are indirectly measuring all the major players in the theory.

Wrong again. And you claim to be a geology student. What a farce. Geology became an exact science in the 1800's with the combined works of James Hutton and Charles Lyell. "Principles of Geology" published in 1830 IIRC is the beginning of the modern scientific era for geology. That is when it went from being a soft science to an exact science.

 

[Old Rocks]

Exact science prior to plate tectonics? Like hell. There was zero explanation for how mountains were built, or for the apparent, from fossils and morphology, the movement of continents. When you can just collect the rocks they were made of, and map the surface, but have no explanation for how it got that way, that is just scientific stamp collecting.

 

[westwall]

Exact science prior to plate tectonics? Like hell. There was zero explanation for how mountains were built, or for the apparent, from fossils and morphology, the movement of continents. When you can just collect the rocks they were made of, and map the surface, but have no explanation for how it got that way, that is just scientific stamp collecting.

Once again you demonstrate your ignorance. Yes exact science prior to Plate Tectonics. Look up the "Principle of Uniformitarianism", that is what took geology from a soft science to an exact science. With that principle ALL sciences were strengthened. And it came from geology. Hutton laid the ground work for the accurate measurement of time in a geologic sense. Lyell codified the science. With his Principles of Geology we could describe in detail a formation, how it was formed, why it formed, and the conditions that would see it formed again. Thus MEASURABLE. It didn't matter where in the world you were, if you saw a sedimentary formation you could describe the mechanism of its creation.

Unlike climatology that says CO2 will inexorably raise temperatures "except when natural causes are too powerful".

What a farce that "science" has become. It says a lot about your "science" that a well known charlatan, Sylvia Brown, has a more accurate prediction rate than your hero's. And by a LOT.

 

[Old Rocks]

No, the farce is you, Mr. Westwall. The AGU, the GSA, the leading scientific societies in the US concerning geology, both say that the drivel you try to pass off is just that. As does the oldest scientific society in the world, the Royal Society.

And how did the geologists explain the folding of the sedimentary strata prior to plate tectonics? What force did they invoke? And what do we think of their explanations today?

Uniformatism is fine for normal times. But it fails to explain the abnormal. That argument was used against the obvious evidence that J. Harlan Bretz presented in relationship to the Spokane Floods. Uniformatism has to be modified by the punctuated equilibrium, events not in the normal run of things that are not happening at present.

 

[westwall]

No, the farce is you, Mr. Westwall. The AGU, the GSA, the leading scientific societies in the US concerning geology, both say that the drivel you try to pass off is just that. As does the oldest scientific society in the world, the Royal Society.

And how did the geologists explain the folding of the sedimentary strata prior to plate tectonics? What force did they invoke? And what do we think of their explanations today?

Uniformatism is fine for normal times. But it fails to explain the abnormal. That argument was used against the obvious evidence that J. Harlan Bretz presented in relationship to the Spokane Floods. Uniformatism has to be modified by the punctuated equilibrium, events not in the normal run of things that are not happening at present.

You little internet cut and paster you! Punctuated Equilibrium is a evolutionary theory you 'tard. Catastrophism is the very philosophy that was preventing geology from becoming an exact science you religious nut job. Once Hutton broke us out of the religious shackles of catastrophism and presented us with Uniformitarianism, a Principle that crosses ALL exact sciences (it is a friend of Occam, after all), then, and ONLY then, could geology evolve into the exact science it is today. Do catastrophes occur? Of course they do. Are they THE cause of all things that occur? Nope. Uniformitarianism is the Principle that put that bullshit to bed.

Funny how you, who claim to be all sciency and stuff, resort to a failed religion based philosophy to attempt to bolster the failed theory of AGW.

Priceless.

 

[Billy_Bob]

No, the farce is you, Mr. Westwall. The AGU, the GSA, the leading scientific societies in the US concerning geology, both say that the drivel you try to pass off is just that. As does the oldest scientific society in the world, the Royal Society.

And how did the geologists explain the folding of the sedimentary strata prior to plate tectonics? What force did they invoke? And what do we think of their explanations today?

Uniformatism is fine for normal times. But it fails to explain the abnormal. That argument was used against the obvious evidence that J. Harlan Bretz presented in relationship to the Spokane Floods. Uniformatism has to be modified by the punctuated equilibrium, events not in the normal run of things that are not happening at present.

You little internet cut and paster you! Punctuated Equilibrium is a evolutionary theory you 'tard. Catastrophism is the very philosophy that was preventing geology from becoming an exact science you religious nut job. Once Hutton broke us out of the religious shackles of catastrophism and presented us with Uniformitarianism, a Principle that crosses ALL exact sciences (it is a friend of Occam, after all), then, and ONLY then, could geology evolve into the exact science it is today. Do catastrophes occur? Of course they do. Are they THE cause of all things that occur? Nope. Uniformitarianism is the Principle that put that bullshit to bed.

Funny how you, who claim to be all sciency and stuff, resort to a failed religion based philosophy to attempt to bolster the failed theory of AGW.

Priceless.

Hard sciences prove AGW a fraud so he must use something he can bend into what he believes.. AGW is a religion and faith based so he must deviate from hard sciences to protect his faith. His appeal to authority is a dead giveaway that he has no scientific facts to support him.

 

[Old Rocks]

No, the farce is you, Mr. Westwall. The AGU, the GSA, the leading scientific societies in the US concerning geology, both say that the drivel you try to pass off is just that. As does the oldest scientific society in the world, the Royal Society.

And how did the geologists explain the folding of the sedimentary strata prior to plate tectonics? What force did they invoke? And what do we think of their explanations today?

Uniformatism is fine for normal times. But it fails to explain the abnormal. That argument was used against the obvious evidence that J. Harlan Bretz presented in relationship to the Spokane Floods. Uniformatism has to be modified by the punctuated equilibrium, events not in the normal run of things that are not happening at present.

You little internet cut and paster you! Punctuated Equilibrium is a evolutionary theory you 'tard. Catastrophism is the very philosophy that was preventing geology from becoming an exact science you religious nut job. Once Hutton broke us out of the religious shackles of catastrophism and presented us with Uniformitarianism, a Principle that crosses ALL exact sciences (it is a friend of Occam, after all), then, and ONLY then, could geology evolve into the exact science it is today. Do catastrophes occur? Of course they do. Are they THE cause of all things that occur? Nope. Uniformitarianism is the Principle that put that bullshit to bed.

Funny how you, who claim to be all sciency and stuff, resort to a failed religion based philosophy to attempt to bolster the failed theory of AGW.

Priceless.

JOHN ALLEN RETIRES FROM PORTLAND STATE UNIVERSITY Dr. John Eliot Allen has retired from the faculty of Portland State University after 17 years as head of the Earth Sciences Department and a long career that had considerable influence on geological education and research. Dr. Allen had stepped down as chairman and head of the Earth Sciences Department at PSU last year, continuing to teach during the recently ended school year. He has a long list of publications both in the scientific journals and in materials written for the layman. He received his bachelor and master's degrees from the U of 0 and his doctorate from the University of California, Berkeley. Between 1939 and 1944 he was a geologist with Oregon Department of Geology and Mineral Industries. He is succeeded as head of the Department by Dr. Richard E. Thoms, who joined the Earth Sciences Department staff in 1964.

http://www.oregongeology.org/pubs/og/OBv36n06.pdf

Dr. Allen wrote an article on how punctuated equilibrium applied to the basic geology in Oregon.

 

[westwall]

No, the farce is you, Mr. Westwall. The AGU, the GSA, the leading scientific societies in the US concerning geology, both say that the drivel you try to pass off is just that. As does the oldest scientific society in the world, the Royal Society.

And how did the geologists explain the folding of the sedimentary strata prior to plate tectonics? What force did they invoke? And what do we think of their explanations today?

Uniformatism is fine for normal times. But it fails to explain the abnormal. That argument was used against the obvious evidence that J. Harlan Bretz presented in relationship to the Spokane Floods. Uniformatism has to be modified by the punctuated equilibrium, events not in the normal run of things that are not happening at present.

You little internet cut and paster you! Punctuated Equilibrium is a evolutionary theory you 'tard. Catastrophism is the very philosophy that was preventing geology from becoming an exact science you religious nut job. Once Hutton broke us out of the religious shackles of catastrophism and presented us with Uniformitarianism, a Principle that crosses ALL exact sciences (it is a friend of Occam, after all), then, and ONLY then, could geology evolve into the exact science it is today. Do catastrophes occur? Of course they do. Are they THE cause of all things that occur? Nope. Uniformitarianism is the Principle that put that bullshit to bed.

Funny how you, who claim to be all sciency and stuff, resort to a failed religion based philosophy to attempt to bolster the failed theory of AGW.

Priceless.

JOHN ALLEN RETIRES FROM PORTLAND STATE UNIVERSITY Dr. John Eliot Allen has retired from the faculty of Portland State University after 17 years as head of the Earth Sciences Department and a long career that had considerable influence on geological education and research. Dr. Allen had stepped down as chairman and head of the Earth Sciences Department at PSU last year, continuing to teach during the recently ended school year. He has a long list of publications both in the scientific journals and in materials written for the layman. He received his bachelor and master's degrees from the U of 0 and his doctorate from the University of California, Berkeley. Between 1939 and 1944 he was a geologist with Oregon Department of Geology and Mineral Industries. He is succeeded as head of the Department by Dr. Richard E. Thoms, who joined the Earth Sciences Department staff in 1964.

http://www.oregongeology.org/pubs/og/OBv36n06.pdf

Dr. Allen wrote an article on how punctuated equilibrium applied to the basic geology in Oregon.

Yes, just like the Principle of Uniformitarianism is a geologic Principle, it also can be applied to other aspects of science. But the underlying theory is evolution. Catastrophism CAN be an element of evolution, just like it can be an element of geological processes. In fact in many respects it seems to be a necessary precursor. Pretty much all of evolution (90%) occurs in the temperate zones where there are unstable climates to drive distress. Distress causes evolution.

Once again, you demonstrate a surface knowledge, but not a deep understanding of the subject.

 

[Crick]

You think statements like "Uniformitarianism... also can be applied to other aspects of science" shows your "deep understanding" of geology? Give us a fooking break.

 

[westwall]

You think statements like "Uniformitarianism... also can be applied to other aspects of science" shows your "deep understanding" of geology? Give us a fooking break.

The fact that you DON'T demonstrates your total lack of scientific understanding. Let us take a look at the Ideal Gas Laws, as a for instance. Did you know that they apply to whatever planetary body you might happen to look at? Or how about gravity? Did you know that gravity affects orbiting bodies the same, no matter where in the universe you are? That is called UNIFORMITARIANISM.

 

[SSDD]

You think statements like "Uniformitarianism... also can be applied to other aspects of science" shows your "deep understanding" of geology? Give us a fooking break.

The fact that you DON'T demonstrates your total lack of scientific understanding. Let us take a look at the Ideal Gas Laws, as a for instance. Did you know that they apply to whatever planetary body you might happen to look at? Or how about gravity? Did you know that gravity affects orbiting bodies the same, no matter where in the universe you are? That is called UNIFORMITARIANISM.

Crick et al think there is a special set of physics for refrigerators....when you are talking about refrigerators, heat and energy won't move spontaneously from cool to warm, but talk about something other than refrigerators and energy and heat move from cool to warm spontaneously...all the time.

 

[Old Rocks]

No, the farce is you, Mr. Westwall. The AGU, the GSA, the leading scientific societies in the US concerning geology, both say that the drivel you try to pass off is just that. As does the oldest scientific society in the world, the Royal Society.

And how did the geologists explain the folding of the sedimentary strata prior to plate tectonics? What force did they invoke? And what do we think of their explanations today?

Uniformatism is fine for normal times. But it fails to explain the abnormal. That argument was used against the obvious evidence that J. Harlan Bretz presented in relationship to the Spokane Floods. Uniformatism has to be modified by the punctuated equilibrium, events not in the normal run of things that are not happening at present.

You little internet cut and paster you! Punctuated Equilibrium is a evolutionary theory you 'tard. Catastrophism is the very philosophy that was preventing geology from becoming an exact science you religious nut job. Once Hutton broke us out of the religious shackles of catastrophism and presented us with Uniformitarianism, a Principle that crosses ALL exact sciences (it is a friend of Occam, after all), then, and ONLY then, could geology evolve into the exact science it is today. Do catastrophes occur? Of course they do. Are they THE cause of all things that occur? Nope. Uniformitarianism is the Principle that put that bullshit to bed.

Funny how you, who claim to be all sciency and stuff, resort to a failed religion based philosophy to attempt to bolster the failed theory of AGW.

Priceless.

JOHN ALLEN RETIRES FROM PORTLAND STATE UNIVERSITY Dr. John Eliot Allen has retired from the faculty of Portland State University after 17 years as head of the Earth Sciences Department and a long career that had considerable influence on geological education and research. Dr. Allen had stepped down as chairman and head of the Earth Sciences Department at PSU last year, continuing to teach during the recently ended school year. He has a long list of publications both in the scientific journals and in materials written for the layman. He received his bachelor and master's degrees from the U of 0 and his doctorate from the University of California, Berkeley. Between 1939 and 1944 he was a geologist with Oregon Department of Geology and Mineral Industries. He is succeeded as head of the Department by Dr. Richard E. Thoms, who joined the Earth Sciences Department staff in 1964.

http://www.oregongeology.org/pubs/og/OBv36n06.pdf

Dr. Allen wrote an article on how punctuated equilibrium applied to the basic geology in Oregon.

Yes, just like the Principle of Uniformitarianism is a geologic Principle, it also can be applied to other aspects of science. But the underlying theory is evolution. Catastrophism CAN be an element of evolution, just like it can be an element of geological processes. In fact in many respects it seems to be a necessary precursor. Pretty much all of evolution (90%) occurs in the temperate zones where there are unstable climates to drive distress. Distress causes evolution.

Once again, you demonstrate a surface knowledge, but not a deep understanding of the subject.

LOL I accept your concession on this issue. Yes, here in Oregon we see very punctuated equilibrium in our geology. Everything from the Spokane Floods to the large caldera eruptions at various times in the geological history of Oregon.

 

[ding]

No, the farce is you, Mr. Westwall. The AGU, the GSA, the leading scientific societies in the US concerning geology, both say that the drivel you try to pass off is just that. As does the oldest scientific society in the world, the Royal Society.

And how did the geologists explain the folding of the sedimentary strata prior to plate tectonics? What force did they invoke? And what do we think of their explanations today?

Uniformatism is fine for normal times. But it fails to explain the abnormal. That argument was used against the obvious evidence that J. Harlan Bretz presented in relationship to the Spokane Floods. Uniformatism has to be modified by the punctuated equilibrium, events not in the normal run of things that are not happening at present.

You little internet cut and paster you! Punctuated Equilibrium is a evolutionary theory you 'tard. Catastrophism is the very philosophy that was preventing geology from becoming an exact science you religious nut job. Once Hutton broke us out of the religious shackles of catastrophism and presented us with Uniformitarianism, a Principle that crosses ALL exact sciences (it is a friend of Occam, after all), then, and ONLY then, could geology evolve into the exact science it is today. Do catastrophes occur? Of course they do. Are they THE cause of all things that occur? Nope. Uniformitarianism is the Principle that put that bullshit to bed.

Funny how you, who claim to be all sciency and stuff, resort to a failed religion based philosophy to attempt to bolster the failed theory of AGW.

Priceless.

JOHN ALLEN RETIRES FROM PORTLAND STATE UNIVERSITY Dr. John Eliot Allen has retired from the faculty of Portland State University after 17 years as head of the Earth Sciences Department and a long career that had considerable influence on geological education and research. Dr. Allen had stepped down as chairman and head of the Earth Sciences Department at PSU last year, continuing to teach during the recently ended school year. He has a long list of publications both in the scientific journals and in materials written for the layman. He received his bachelor and master's degrees from the U of 0 and his doctorate from the University of California, Berkeley. Between 1939 and 1944 he was a geologist with Oregon Department of Geology and Mineral Industries. He is succeeded as head of the Department by Dr. Richard E. Thoms, who joined the Earth Sciences Department staff in 1964.

http://www.oregongeology.org/pubs/og/OBv36n06.pdf

Dr. Allen wrote an article on how punctuated equilibrium applied to the basic geology in Oregon.

Yes, just like the Principle of Uniformitarianism is a geologic Principle, it also can be applied to other aspects of science. But the underlying theory is evolution. Catastrophism CAN be an element of evolution, just like it can be an element of geological processes. In fact in many respects it seems to be a necessary precursor. Pretty much all of evolution (90%) occurs in the temperate zones where there are unstable climates to drive distress. Distress causes evolution.

Once again, you demonstrate a surface knowledge, but not a deep understanding of the subject.

LOL I accept your concession on this issue. Yes, here in Oregon we see very punctuated equilibrium in our geology. Everything from the Spokane Floods to the large caldera eruptions at various times in the geological history of Oregon.

I didn't see that as a concession on his part. I saw it a beat down of you. A brutal, bloody beatdown.

 

[Old Rocks]

You see what you wish to see, and nothing else. Mr. Westwall said that punctuated equilibrium applied only to evolution. When I pointed out there were papers by very well respected geologists using the term for general geology, he backtracked and stated that was the case, but I had only a minimal understanding of what that meant. He conceded the argument, I did not.

 

[ding]

You see what you wish to see, and nothing else. Mr. Westwall said that punctuated equilibrium applied only to evolution. When I pointed out there were papers by very well respected geologists using the term for general geology, he backtracked and stated that was the case, but I had only a minimal understanding of what that meant. He conceded the argument, I did not.

No. I saw a bloody beat down.

 

[westwall]

You see what you wish to see, and nothing else. Mr. Westwall said that punctuated equilibrium applied only to evolution. When I pointed out there were papers by very well respected geologists using the term for general geology, he backtracked and stated that was the case, but I had only a minimal understanding of what that meant. He conceded the argument, I did not.

No, I said that catastrophe's occur. Those catastrophe's will be preserved in some cases in the geologic record. The Channeled Scablands are an excellent example of that. What they are not is punctuation marks in a continuing series of sentences (periods of geologic history). Punctuated Equilibrium states that evolution occurs as a series of moments of distress, followed by periods of serenity.

Geologic history is filled with fantastically enormously long periods of serenity, with the very, very rare asteroid strike, or giant volcanic caldera eruption thrown into the mix to really mix things up. What they are not is episodic. They are ONE TIME EVENTS (in the entire 4.5 billion year history of the Earth we have evidence of maybe 17 giant calderic eruptions., and ONE asteroid strike that has good empirical evidence to support) Thus, not punctuated equilibrium. Learn English, and even more really take a geology class. I suggest you start with a good historical geology class as that will give you a good basis to start other studies from.

 

[Old Rocks]

LOL 43 known impacts with craters of over 20 km. Five with craters of over 100 km. Considering that 3/4 of the earth is covered with oceans, and that very little of the ocean crust is over 600 million years old, your statement of only one asteroid strike with evidence to support it is laughable. You need some classes in Geologic History.

 

[westwall]

LOL 43 known impacts with craters of over 20 km. Five with craters of over 100 km. Considering that 3/4 of the earth is covered with oceans, and that very little of the ocean crust is over 600 million years old, your statement of only one asteroid strike with evidence to support it is laughable. You need some classes in Geologic History.

And only one of those is tied to an extinction event. Truly olfraud, the depths of your ignorance is epic.