The Bible Tells Us When Jesus Returns - Between Tisha B'Av and Day of Atonement 2029

[Parture]

You put too much trust in the writings of the ancients. And I love it how you guys now say the bible agrees the universe is 13.5 billion years old. If that's true, why did that fight that idea for so long? Why the 6500 year old argument? Now you claim the bible always said we were that old? I've got to check that out.

You don't put enough trust in evidence. There are certain facts that can be gleaned from ancient texts. Don't throw it all out. The Bible has always agreed with the universe 13.8 billion years, for does not Gen. 1.1 say God created perfectly? I never fought this fact. I know many Christians in history believed in gap restoration, so just because people misread the Bible shouldn't be a reason for you to reject it. I don't know what 6500 old argument you are talking about. God-conscious people did not exist 6500 years ago.

Buddha gave the laws

If you are wise you leave that to God who is all knowing and we are not. I had no problem with how the website stated it because it left it open to the unsaved suffering torment. It didnt dictate about the unsaved. I agree hell is not annihilation either. So I agree with how the website and Bible say it.
But not how you try to say the same thing.

So this is what I see:
If what YOU MEAN is the same thing as in the Bible and on the website,
YES I agree with what you mean, and I agree that "hell is NOT annihilation"
and I agree the unsaved suffer in endless torment, etc.

I just didn't agree with how YOU said it which came across as something else,
as if YOU determine who is saved or not by whether they meet YOUR expectations,
and I object to you deciding that not God.

P.S. the reason I believe in Universal Salvation is God's plan
is that once people SEE that forgiveness heals the mind body spirit/soul and relations,
there is no reason NOT to accept forgiveness and healing.

I have atheist friends who even accept the help with healing.
So if even atheists want the healing that comes with forgiveness,
then eventually everyone will be saved. It is too compelling.
Nobody really wants to suffer, we are just afraid of change and control from outside.
and that can be overcome. So the process is going to win out and bring
healing and salvation from suffering to all. Even Buddha had visions of
a future Buddha or Spiritual Being coming and fulfilling the path to end all suffering.
So if even Buddhism points to the end times fulfilled in Christ Jesus, then all
witnesses point to the same truth that comes from the same source or one God.

You come across with a doubletongue because you said "universal salvation is God's plan" to imply everyone eventually gets saved including those who go to Hell and then said "I agree the unsaved suffer in endless torment." So which is it? I'm holding you to this because it is far more important than you realize.

You said, "it left it open to the unsaved suffering torment." Look at the question again.

Hell is the Place of Eternal Separation from God:

• Yes
• No
• Not sure

12. Do you agree Hell is not annihilation but the place of eternal torment for the unsaved after being resurrected to the Great White Throne for judgment (Rev. 19.20; 20.10,15)?

I don't see where it is left open. Eternal is eternal. They are forever separated from the saved. What the Holy Spirit is showing me is that those who go to Hell will never change their mind to reject God, just as those in the New Earth and New Heaven will never sin. And because you leave Hell open to be saved from, I am convinced you are not a Christian, because you will forever worship this false Christ of an Open Hell. Hell is permanently shut at the end of the millennial kingdom.

You said, "I just didn't agree with how YOU said it which came across as something else
as if YOU determine who is saved or not by whether they meet YOUR expectations,
and I object to you deciding that not God."

Nowhere do I determine who is saved apart from God, but it is the Holy Spirit who reveals to me in agreement with the word of God who is saved. You are just falsely accusing claiming it is me doing it alone, when it is not, but the Holy Spirit leading me to tell you that you are not a child of God because you are like Satan who would attempt to keep Hell Open forever.

Think how precarious your position is because you don't know and can't discern who is saved or not, to break bread with if saved and to lead to Christ if they are not saved going to Hell.

Buddha had not accepted Christ, for Buddhists are atheists. Think how evil that is for joe blow to say he is expecting a future himself. That is self-centered, self-involved, self-deluded. The teachings of Buddha do not agree with the teachings of the Bible and you will never be able to make them fit, for the exclusivity of Christ is a solidly proven fact.

I have always known you were not a Christian, because your words do not flow with the Holy Spirit. They are strange. God does not know you.

The ancient Greeks believed that there were 3 levels of the afterlife. The heaven, the average place where most people go and then the burning hell. That makes more sense than Christianity.

In Christianity, good non christians go to hell to burn forever. People who were born and brainwashed into Islam just like you were born into your Christian society, burn in hell because they believe their fables over yours. In your world, people who don't believe an obviously corrupt church's unbelievable stories goes to burning hell.

But you go to heaven, just because you do believe the unbelievable story.

I agree with the ancient Greeks. You are no great person, so you would go to the middle after life. You certainly didn't do enough to become a god and go to heaven and you weren't Hitler so you won't burn in hell but you will go to the middle/average afterlife where most of us will end up. Hercules did enough to become a God. Did you? I don't think ignorance is a virtue.

sealybobo Actually many people blame the Greeks for mixing in the concept of Hades which they argue is not Biblical.
There are different levels or realms of heaven, so it makes sense there are different levels of hell.

Earthly hell is one level. Anyone who's been through war, nearly died and lost everything to drug addiction,
or got abused by a stalker or endured endless torture.

We could have several levels, including the purgatory process that is symbolic also.

I believe the point of all this is to try to AVOID the suffering.
Some people have had visions and visits either to heaven or to hell and reported the symbolic visions
and what it meant.

So there are many realms and levels, and the common factor is that
if we forgive and seek to correct and make amends, then we can get help not to end up in these vicious cycle.

My whole neighborhood has negative cursed energy and patterns from unforgiven conflicts
that have destroyed relations over and over. So that negative energy and especially the
occult, demons and satanic level sickness is what requires the prayers and authority of
Christ Jesus to overcome and cast out. It is just too concentrated and requires the
concentrated prayers united in Christ to overcome. So that is a level of hell that will not end.

Collectively all this ill will, retribution, war and suffering is what humans know of hell
in our conscious understanding. We can only symbolize what goes on beyond that level.

But there are people who have experienced visions to try to help people
take this seriously and do not waste their lives in selfishness and hatred
but really seek to rise above. Here I will post the link to some of these testimonies
people have used to teach people and inspire them to turn their lives around:
Testimonies - To Hell and Back

According to the Bible you are going to Hell because you are a universalist. It is that simple.

 

[sealybobo]

I think you are even dumber if you were not brainwashed from birth and you actually fell for the Christian bullshit as an adult. Usually Christianity gets guys like you in your 20's but who knows when or why people "find the lord". I can just imagine the hell you were going through at age 33 when you bought into that religion. Were you a scum bag? Did you hit rock bottom? Or did you just take that long to start thinking about it and Christianity sounded good to you. That's how a lot of blacks in America get sucked into Islam.

Brainwashed from birth? We were all brainwashed from birth for we were all born into sin. God often uses trials and tribulations to lead people to Him; other times not. There is no set way of being saved to receive revelation from God. I had everything going for me, was rich, but I just realized watching the struggles of someone else much like you that you were never satisfied in life, then I realized all things sum up in Christ. And I was saved. That was back in Jan. 2001. I have never been the same since and could never go back to being like you. To this day I have not been able to disprove the Minimal Facts Approach, nor can you; the difference is I give into reality, you remain delusionally hostile, independent and disobedient to your Creator just like the first God-conscious man did.

One way you can check if you are searching out God with all your heart and soul is to try to find a better proof than what God has provided in the NT. And you can't. That's how you know.

No, you realized that YOU were never satisfied. I am satisfied. Well, not completely, but who is? Like you think it would be good for everyone to find Jesus, I think it would be good if humans dropped the god stuff. I think religion is bad for humans. The Greeks thought people would do bad things if they didn't fear Zeus. No different than what you Christians think today. I think you are wrong. In fact look at what believe in god is doing for the Muslims. Look at the arms race we have had with Russia the last 70 years. That's the best our christian nation can do? There must be better. I know, science, math and logic/education. A more intelligent species might do the trick.

We could power our planet through photosyntasys. Why are we destroying our planet instead? I think the corporations are in bed with the churches. I think they use religion to keep us ignorant. We separated church and state but are they still in collusion with each other?

 

[sealybobo]

You put too much trust in the writings of the ancients. And I love it how you guys now say the bible agrees the universe is 13.5 billion years old. If that's true, why did that fight that idea for so long? Why the 6500 year old argument? Now you claim the bible always said we were that old? I've got to check that out.

You don't put enough trust in evidence. There are certain facts that can be gleaned from ancient texts. Don't throw it all out. The Bible has always agreed with the universe 13.8 billion years, for does not Gen. 1.1 say God created perfectly? I never fought this fact. I know many Christians in history believed in gap restoration, so just because people misread the Bible shouldn't be a reason for you to reject it. I don't know what 6500 old argument you are talking about. God-conscious people did not exist 6500 years ago.

Buddha gave the laws

If you are wise you leave that to God who is all knowing and we are not. I had no problem with how the website stated it because it left it open to the unsaved suffering torment. It didnt dictate about the unsaved. I agree hell is not annihilation either. So I agree with how the website and Bible say it.
But not how you try to say the same thing.

So this is what I see:
If what YOU MEAN is the same thing as in the Bible and on the website,
YES I agree with what you mean, and I agree that "hell is NOT annihilation"
and I agree the unsaved suffer in endless torment, etc.

I just didn't agree with how YOU said it which came across as something else,
as if YOU determine who is saved or not by whether they meet YOUR expectations,
and I object to you deciding that not God.

P.S. the reason I believe in Universal Salvation is God's plan
is that once people SEE that forgiveness heals the mind body spirit/soul and relations,
there is no reason NOT to accept forgiveness and healing.

I have atheist friends who even accept the help with healing.
So if even atheists want the healing that comes with forgiveness,
then eventually everyone will be saved. It is too compelling.
Nobody really wants to suffer, we are just afraid of change and control from outside.
and that can be overcome. So the process is going to win out and bring
healing and salvation from suffering to all. Even Buddha had visions of
a future Buddha or Spiritual Being coming and fulfilling the path to end all suffering.
So if even Buddhism points to the end times fulfilled in Christ Jesus, then all
witnesses point to the same truth that comes from the same source or one God.

You come across with a doubletongue because you said "universal salvation is God's plan" to imply everyone eventually gets saved including those who go to Hell and then said "I agree the unsaved suffer in endless torment." So which is it? I'm holding you to this because it is far more important than you realize.

You said, "it left it open to the unsaved suffering torment." Look at the question again.

Hell is the Place of Eternal Separation from God:

• Yes
• No
• Not sure

12. Do you agree Hell is not annihilation but the place of eternal torment for the unsaved after being resurrected to the Great White Throne for judgment (Rev. 19.20; 20.10,15)?

I don't see where it is left open. Eternal is eternal. They are forever separated from the saved. What the Holy Spirit is showing me is that those who go to Hell will never change their mind to reject God, just as those in the New Earth and New Heaven will never sin. And because you leave Hell open to be saved from, I am convinced you are not a Christian, because you will forever worship this false Christ of an Open Hell. Hell is permanently shut at the end of the millennial kingdom.

You said, "I just didn't agree with how YOU said it which came across as something else
as if YOU determine who is saved or not by whether they meet YOUR expectations,
and I object to you deciding that not God."

Nowhere do I determine who is saved apart from God, but it is the Holy Spirit who reveals to me in agreement with the word of God who is saved. You are just falsely accusing claiming it is me doing it alone, when it is not, but the Holy Spirit leading me to tell you that you are not a child of God because you are like Satan who would attempt to keep Hell Open forever.

Think how precarious your position is because you don't know and can't discern who is saved or not, to break bread with if saved and to lead to Christ if they are not saved going to Hell.

Buddha had not accepted Christ, for Buddhists are atheists. Think how evil that is for joe blow to say he is expecting a future himself. That is self-centered, self-involved, self-deluded. The teachings of Buddha do not agree with the teachings of the Bible and you will never be able to make them fit, for the exclusivity of Christ is a solidly proven fact.

I have always known you were not a Christian, because your words do not flow with the Holy Spirit. They are strange. God does not know you.

The ancient Greeks believed that there were 3 levels of the afterlife. The heaven, the average place where most people go and then the burning hell. That makes more sense than Christianity.

In Christianity, good non christians go to hell to burn forever. People who were born and brainwashed into Islam just like you were born into your Christian society, burn in hell because they believe their fables over yours. In your world, people who don't believe an obviously corrupt church's unbelievable stories goes to burning hell.

But you go to heaven, just because you do believe the unbelievable story.

I agree with the ancient Greeks. You are no great person, so you would go to the middle after life. You certainly didn't do enough to become a god and go to heaven and you weren't Hitler so you won't burn in hell but you will go to the middle/average afterlife where most of us will end up. Hercules did enough to become a God. Did you? I don't think ignorance is a virtue.

sealybobo Actually many people blame the Greeks for mixing in the concept of Hades which they argue is not Biblical.
There are different levels or realms of heaven, so it makes sense there are different levels of hell.

Earthly hell is one level. Anyone who's been through war, nearly died and lost everything to drug addiction,
or got abused by a stalker or endured endless torture.

We could have several levels, including the purgatory process that is symbolic also.

I believe the point of all this is to try to AVOID the suffering.
Some people have had visions and visits either to heaven or to hell and reported the symbolic visions
and what it meant.

So there are many realms and levels, and the common factor is that
if we forgive and seek to correct and make amends, then we can get help not to end up in these vicious cycle.

My whole neighborhood has negative cursed energy and patterns from unforgiven conflicts
that have destroyed relations over and over. So that negative energy and especially the
occult, demons and satanic level sickness is what requires the prayers and authority of
Christ Jesus to overcome and cast out. It is just too concentrated and requires the
concentrated prayers united in Christ to overcome. So that is a level of hell that will not end.

Collectively all this ill will, retribution, war and suffering is what humans know of hell
in our conscious understanding. We can only symbolize what goes on beyond that level.

But there are people who have experienced visions to try to help people
take this seriously and do not waste their lives in selfishness and hatred
but really seek to rise above. Here I will post the link to some of these testimonies
people have used to teach people and inspire them to turn their lives around:
Testimonies - To Hell and Back

According to the Bible you are going to Hell because you are a universalist. It is that simple.

You tell her!

When I became convinced that the universe was natural, that all the ghosts and gods were myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles turned to dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space.

I was free to think. Free to express my thoughts, free to live in my own ideal. Free to live for myself and those I loved. Free to use all my faculties, all my senses. Free to spread imagination’s wings, free to investigate, to guess, and dream and hope. Free to judge and determine for myself. Free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the inspired books that savages have produced, and the barbarous legends of the past. Free from sanctified mistakes and “holy” lies. Free from the fear of eternal pain, free from the winged monsters of the night. Free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free.

There were no prohibited places in all of the realm of thought. No error, no space where fancy could not spread her painted wings. No chains for my limbs. No lashes for my back. No flames for my flesh. No Master’s frown or threat, no following in another’s steps. No need to bow or cringe or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free; I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously faced all worlds.

My heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heros, the thinkers who gave their lives for liberty of hand and brain, for the freedom of labor and thought to those who fell on the fierce fields of war. To those who died in dungeons, bound in chains, to those by fire consumed, to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then, I vowed to grasp the torch that they held, and hold it high, That light might conquer darkness still.

-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899)

 

[Parture]

I think you are even dumber if you were not brainwashed from birth and you actually fell for the Christian bullshit as an adult. Usually Christianity gets guys like you in your 20's but who knows when or why people "find the lord". I can just imagine the hell you were going through at age 33 when you bought into that religion. Were you a scum bag? Did you hit rock bottom? Or did you just take that long to start thinking about it and Christianity sounded good to you. That's how a lot of blacks in America get sucked into Islam.

Brainwashed from birth? We were all brainwashed from birth for we were all born into sin. God often uses trials and tribulations to lead people to Him; other times not. There is no set way of being saved to receive revelation from God. I had everything going for me, was rich, but I just realized watching the struggles of someone else much like you that you were never satisfied in life, then I realized all things sum up in Christ. And I was saved. That was back in Jan. 2001. I have never been the same since and could never go back to being like you. To this day I have not been able to disprove the Minimal Facts Approach, nor can you; the difference is I give into reality, you remain delusionally hostile, independent and disobedient to your Creator just like the first God-conscious man did.

One way you can check if you are searching out God with all your heart and soul is to try to find a better proof than what God has provided in the NT. And you can't. That's how you know.

No, you realized that YOU were never satisfied. I am satisfied. Well, not completely, but who is? Like you think it would be good for everyone to find Jesus, I think it would be good if humans dropped the god stuff. I think religion is bad for humans. The Greeks thought people would do bad things if they didn't fear Zeus. No different than what you Christians think today. I think you are wrong. In fact look at what believe in god is doing for the Muslims. Look at the arms race we have had with Russia the last 70 years. That's the best our christian nation can do? There must be better. I know, science, math and logic/education. A more intelligent species might do the trick.

We could power our planet through photosyntasys. Why are we destroying our planet instead? I think the corporations are in bed with the churches. I think they use religion to keep us ignorant. We separated church and state but are they still in collusion with each other?

Jesus even said there would be a great many things we accomplish. But He died for your sins, and since you don't want forgiveness you will go to Hell. The proof being you can't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings.

 

[emilynghiem]

I think you are even dumber if you were not brainwashed from birth and you actually fell for the Christian bullshit as an adult. Usually Christianity gets guys like you in your 20's but who knows when or why people "find the lord". I can just imagine the hell you were going through at age 33 when you bought into that religion. Were you a scum bag? Did you hit rock bottom? Or did you just take that long to start thinking about it and Christianity sounded good to you. That's how a lot of blacks in America get sucked into Islam.

Brainwashed from birth? We were all brainwashed from birth for we were all born into sin. God often uses trials and tribulations to lead people to Him; other times not. There is no set way of being saved to receive revelation from God. I had everything going for me, was rich, but I just realized watching the struggles of someone else much like you that you were never satisfied in life, then I realized all things sum up in Christ. And I was saved. That was back in Jan. 2001. I have never been the same since and could never go back to being like you. To this day I have not been able to disprove the Minimal Facts Approach, nor can you; the difference is I give into reality, you remain delusionally hostile, independent and disobedient to your Creator just like the first God-conscious man did.

One way you can check if you are searching out God with all your heart and soul is to try to find a better proof than what God has provided in the NT. And you can't. That's how you know.

Dear Parture I received the message meaning vision and understanding of God and Christ
as a secular gentile, in the process of resolving and reconciling relations as sealybobo is trying to do so here.
I think between some of the ways you correct misinterpretations of the Bible and Christianity, you help remove those errors.
And some of the ways these things were removed for me may help sealybobo let go of thinking these are conditions separating his view of Christianity from truth.

His path may not be using the Bible as literally as you understand it.
If he cannot cite it properly he should not use it at all but just stick to his own system
and remove conflicts there first, apply the same process of forgiveness healing and correction
to remove these barriers between us.

I was just trying to get rid of garbage affecting my own personal relationships
and went through the process that way. having to forgive and let go, where
all that was replaced with truth and understanding of where the garbage came
from and how to break the cycle of all this suffering and conflict.

I am glad you are here, I think between how you say things using the Bible and explaining it logistically
and some of my experience "not getting" what these things symbolize and mean, we can work this out,
remove the errors and stick to where we all agree makes sense and is consistent from all our paths
and where they are coming together here. thank you this is a wonderful gift and I feel very grateful
and uplifted that we are able to share this way. I see nothing but good things coming out of this. thanks!

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear sealybobo RE: your cited quote about sticking to what is natural and "rejecting" anything spiritual beyond that

Jesus even said there would be a great many things we accomplish. But He died for your sins, and since you don't want forgiveness you will go to Hell. The proof being you can't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings.

And Parture about not being able to prove things naturalistically

I disagree with both of you.
We CAN demonstrate spiritual processes in a natural way using medical and scientific study.

Scott Peck wrote about his observations of demonic exorcism and cure of two schizophrenic patients.
This changed his mind about science and that it could be used to show a consistent pattern of
stages, just like other diseases treatments and cures, both the diagnosis and the testing if the person is healed.

I suggest you look into his writings and suggestions on this field of therapy as scientifically quantifiable and measurable/predictable
so you do not argue back and forth.

So Sealybobo you can have naturalistic focus that INCLUDES and does not false reject spiritual processes.
Like love is a spiritual energy, life is spiritual and these are natural too. they are not mutually exclusive.

And Parture yes we can use science to show the natural patterns and process
of healing by casting out demons using the Christian prayer. We can even develop
the technology to measure the energy, so we can show it is true the negative energies
of demons and occult that is on the side of hell is destructive like radioactive energy and dangerous,
while the positive energy in healing prayers is life giving and helps the mind/body to heal naturally.

God is not against nature because God created the laws of the universe.

Or if you are like sealybobo and other nontheists,
God is nature or is the creation and the body of truth or laws
with no begining or no end but always self-existent and eternal.

either way God's laws include natural laws
and natural laws are not in conflict with spiritual laws either.

 

[Parture]

I disagree with both of you.
We CAN demonstrate spiritual processes in a natural way using medical and scientific study.

But I believe we can demonstrate spiritual processes from observing nature, so why bear false witness of me?

Realize you are going to Hell because you are too selfish to give your life to the Jesus who sends people to Hell who remain there forever and there is no salvation when one goes to Hell. It is permanent.

 

[koshergrl]

The bible tells us no man may know the day of Christ's return.

So give it up and do what the bible says...prepare as if any day, any minute may be the hour of His coming. Prepare yourself.

 

[Parture]

The bible tells us no man may know the day of Christ's return.

So give it up and do what the bible says...prepare as if any day, any minute may be the hour of His coming. Prepare yourself.

The Bible teaches the reason you don't and can't know when Jesus returns is because you are not watchful (Rev.3.3). No man knows when the world ends (Matt. 24.35,36), but Jesus returns 1000 years before the world ends.

Even though many don't know the day when Jesus returns you should still live as though He could return at any time. Also, imminency, nonetheless is false, because certain things must happen like Rev. 6.12 2010-15 must conclude and asteroid Apophis must be unveiled April 13, 2029. The 3rd Temple must be completed too which it will be Passover 2023 which is 2300 days before Tisha B'Av 2029.

 

[koshergrl]

I agree that we should live as though he will return at any time..in fact I said that.

The rest..that's just vanity.

 

[emilynghiem]

I disagree with both of you.
We CAN demonstrate spiritual processes in a natural way using medical and scientific study.

But I believe we can demonstrate spiritual processes from observing nature, so why bear false witness of me?

Realize you are going to Hell because you are too selfish to give your life to the Jesus who sends people to Hell who remain there forever and there is no salvation when one goes to Hell. It is permanent.

I have never known Jesus to send people to hell.
People are too busy sending themselves and each other there.
Jesus is focused on saving people from hell.
The demons may be cast back there, but demons are not humans.

As for the point about naturalistic observations,
I'm glad to hear we agree onthis. M.D. Rawlings agrees also and posted a msg on this.

What I was saying is you don't need to argue about naturalistic proof or not about the disciples in the past
because we can replicate the spiritual healing in the present and show it that way to explain the process to gentiles.

I can send you Scott Peck's book "Glimpses of the Devil" where he first observed
and realized this could bridge the gap between what people are practicing and teaching spiritually
and what science can study and prove.

I am much more confident we can reach more people by
this method that secular gentiles can see and understand directly.

Let me PM to M.D. Rawlings and try to find that msg.
M.D. was trying to focus on the proof of God using TAG
and I urged him to focus on spiritual healing that nontheists
and secular gentiles can understand and study using science.

I agree with you that if people do not forgive they end up in hell.
they send themselves there, that isn't God's ideal will.

What I like about the testimonies of hell that I posted
is that it wasn't about threatening other people to go there
it was about people realizing they had the gift of life and not to take that for granted

so when it is people talking about their own salvation and what changed them
in a positive FORGIVING way that is the message of Christ.

When people preach to send OTHER people to hell that is
the same negative energy as Jihadists thinking they can judge who is
an infidel and deserves to suffer and die. So no, that negative
coercive judgment is more antichrist than Christlike so I don't agree with that SPIRIT.

there is nothing wrong with LOVINGLY encouraging
people to forgive and break the patterns to prevent from going to hell.
I agree with that but not this condemnation stuff that is for demons
ordered to depart. the purpose of Christ is to compel us by love and free will
not by force.

You remind me of when I asked GISMYS and Jeremiah about this.
And Irish Ram also said some people need to have this forceful
approach. I think that may be for the Pharisees who need to
be talked to that way.

I respond to the Restorative Justice side of Jesus that heals
through inclusion, whle other people who live by Retributive
Justice and rejection/exclusion will get the justice they give to others.

If you can do both, that is a gift, if you can talk to people who
need that go to hell approach and it saves them, that's great.

I think God uses both to give people every chance
every way they can possible understand why it is
better to forgive and correct things together
rather than to reject and send people to hell.

Whatever it takes to reach people God has
special teachers who can say it that way as needed to be effective.

 

[emilynghiem]

The bible tells us no man may know the day of Christ's return.

So give it up and do what the bible says...prepare as if any day, any minute may be the hour of His coming. Prepare yourself.

I can't find the passage but there is one about knowing the general seasons and changes.
I found the passage about telling by the twigs and leaves, but that's not the one.
There is one that you may not know the time but you can know the seasons.

koshergrl what I most often compare the stages to
are the stages of grief and recovery.

We all know these are different for each person.
But we know the GENERAL names and progression.
We can tell when someone is moving from denial and numbness
and depression toward the anger phase and projecting blame outward.

There is a phase of bargaining and either clinging to or letting go of conditions
that can block the process, such as "only agreeing to forgive if this person does such and such"
which isn't unconditional forgiveness but a recipe for resentment and misery trying to
wait for someone else to change before letting go.

So each person has their own stages and timing,
but we know the general pattern.

And what the Bible represents is symbolizing this global
pattern that all humanity goes through collectively
to recover from fall out, and finding new life and restoration in Christ
or perfect conscience that joins all humanity as one in truth and harmony.

 

[emilynghiem]

Brainwashed from birth? We were all brainwashed from birth for we were all born into sin.

Parture
yes and no. Yes we are born under sin or what others may call karma, or some even recognize as racial conditioning in our spirit.
But no, our SPIRITUAL true being is made in the image of God. the sin or bad karma from unforgiven sin is stacked on top.
So the point of renouncing karma or sin is to remove these conditions that are material
and restore the spiritual laws and being that is one with God, and this is done through Christ.

both you and sealybobo are concerned with ripping away the material conditions imposed by manmade religion.
And trying to get to the default truth that is there underneath without all that conflicting mumbo jumbo piled on top.

One way you can check if you are searching out God with all your heart and soul is to try to find a better proof than what God has provided in the NT. And you can't. That's how you know.

that may not be the best proof for an atheist or nontheist.
they may respond better to replicating the same spiritual healing that Jesus
did and showing that the process is used today to cast out demonic sickness
and heal people of diseases that can be documented by science.

I also have shown people how universal the trinity and teachings are
by pointing out the parallels in all religions all based on the same trinity.
so again this shows man is made in the image of this same God
and it is universal, it is the blueprint in every set of laws or religions
that were "made by man independently" yet all reflect the same trinity.
so clearly these universal laws underneath all point to the same source.

 

[Parture]

I agree that we should live as though he will return at any time..in fact I said that.

The rest..that's just vanity.

Since you reject the word of God on these points, to edify, you are vain.

 

[Parture]

Brainwashed from birth? We were all brainwashed from birth for we were all born into sin.

Parture
yes and no. Yes we are born under sin or what others may call karma, or some even recognize as racial conditioning in our spirit.
But no, our SPIRITUAL true being is made in the image of God. the sin or bad karma from unforgiven sin is stacked on top.
So the point of renouncing karma or sin is to remove these conditions that are material
and restore the spiritual laws and being that is one with God, and this is done through Christ.

both you and sealybobo are concerned with ripping away the material conditions imposed by manmade religion.
And trying to get to the default truth that is there underneath without all that conflicting mumbo jumbo piled on top.

One way you can check if you are searching out God with all your heart and soul is to try to find a better proof than what God has provided in the NT. And you can't. That's how you know.

that may not be the best proof for an atheist or nontheist.
they may respond better to replicating the same spiritual healing that Jesus
did and showing that the process is used today to cast out demonic sickness
and heal people of diseases that can be documented by science.

I also have shown people how universal the trinity and teachings are
by pointing out the parallels in all religions all based on the same trinity.
so again this shows man is made in the image of this same God
and it is universal, it is the blueprint in every set of laws or religions
that were "made by man independently" yet all reflect the same trinity.
so clearly these universal laws underneath all point to the same source.

All I care to know about you is that you are going to Hell, because you are a universalist. No other faith agrees with Christianity. Your flesh attempts to mingle them, but God does not contradict Himself.

 

[emilynghiem]

I agree that we should live as though he will return at any time..in fact I said that.

The rest..that's just vanity.

Since you reject the word of God on these points, to edify, you are vain.

What? I saw koshergrl
as being in AGREEMENT.
koshergrl also supported when I brought up spiritual healing
of criminal sickness. there are more areas of importance
where we agree. the other areas will resolve themselves in time.

 

[Taz]

If the papyri are dated " to within a generation of the Apostles", then you admit that nothing exists from the hand of the actual Apostles. Good, That's progress.

The reason there is no surviving papyri from the middle of the 1st century and earlier is simply because they don't get preserved. That's why you can't find any papyri from anyone in antiquity for a good 300 to 500 years after, except for Jesus which was within a generation. And even closer than that for Paul's travels in the 50s and 60s.

So there's no surviving papyri during the time of the actual events, but there's some from 150 years after that? That makes no sense. The real reason that there's no recording of events when they happened is because those events never happened. Much more likely.

The earliest still surviving papyri is about 80 or 90 AD which is 20 or 30 years after they were written at the latest 60 AD as the Apostles died in the Neronian persecutions 65 AD. And Revelation was written 95 AD by John so some papyri that still survived was when he was still alive . For anyone else in antiquity you would have to go back hundreds of years for the earliest surviving papyri. Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity, even so much so, He has more sources for Him than any 10 figures combined. So if you want to deny Him you have to deny Aristotle, Julius Caesar, Plato, but I don't know any sane position who would do that. So you see you have a double standard and that's how I know you are being unethical. It makes sense to me that since the church fathers quoted all the verses of the NT except for 11 verses that what they were quoting came before them.

Do you have a link to these fragments? And I agree that it's possible that a guy named Jesus was preaching in the area at that time, in fact, I've read that there were several guys named jesus preaching around that time, lol. Your Jesus might be the most documented dude in history, but what's written in the bible and attributed to him is written after the facts and hearsay.

I am glad you couldn't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings.

What's written in the bible is only hearsay, as you have no proof that the Apostles witnessed anything. Someone simply wrote down several generations later what they thought the Apostles saw or said... That's as close as you can actually prove.

 

[Taz]

What scholars? You have no proof, zero, that Paul ever wrote anything since nothing for his era has ever been found, dated and attributed to him. Go ahead, try to find something, with a link...

12 Historical Facts (Most Critical Scholars Believe These 12 items)

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.

2. He was buried.

3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.

4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).

5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).

6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.

7. The resurrection was the central message.

8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.

9. The Church was born and grew.

10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.

11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).

12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

What Do Most Scholars Believe?

In The Case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel (p. 112), Mike Licona said, "[Gary] Habermas has compiled a list of more than 2,200 sources in French, German, and English in which experts have written on the resurrection from 1975 to the present. He has identified minimal facts that are strongly evidenced and which are regarded as historical by a large majority of scholars, including skeptics. We try to come up with the best historical explanation to account for these facts. This is called the Minimal Facts Approach."

William Lane Craig (sadly, a non-OSASer) does confirm Habermas recorded 1400 scholars (both skeptics and non-skeptics alike) whom 75% agree the tomb was empty and nearly all agree the original disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead bodily, for a vision wouldn't convince the disciples of resurrection.

Gary Habermas said (2009) on the John Ankerberg Show, "I just did a count recently of what scholars say. First of all you can count guys on one hand of the 2400 sources since 1975 on the resurrection [in] French, German, English...who think apparent death [is true]. When scholars respond they still cite David Strauss. I think we would all like to have that kind of influence in our writings. His critique has been around almost 200 years." Habermas was referring to Strauss's argument that Jesus wouldn't look much like a risen Messiah to the disciples all battered and bruised.

Habermas and Licona co-authored the award winning book, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus (2004). Historian Paul Maier said the book's response to naturalistic explanations for the resurrection "are the most comprehensive treatment of the subject anywhere." Philosopher J. P. Moreland said the book presented what "may be the most thorough defense of historicity of the resurrection."

Gary said in a 2009 Ankerberg video, "If we start with the cross approximately 30 AD and call that ground zero, 1 Corinthians 15 checks in at about 55 AD whatever the writer, conservative or not conservative, we have 25 years. In ancient historiography this is incredible in a time when the best known biography of Alexander the Great is that of Plutarch almost 400 years after Plutarch. When we learn about the early Caesars from Tacitus to Suetonius a 'good gap' is 100 years; 25 is incredible [for Jesus]. Paul says, 'I am passing onto you as first importance that which I also received' (1 Cor. 15.3)." Paul said, "I make known to you brethren the gospel which I preached to you" (1 Cor. 15.1). Gary says, "This earlier preaching may have taken place 51 AD about 21 years after the cross." But point of fact, Jesus died not in 30 AD, but 33 AD on April 1st (Gregorian), April Fool's Day, Nisan 14, Friday which is no later than 18 years after the cross.

Gary said, "Almost all contemporary scholarship believes Paul received this material (Gal. 1.18) when he went to Jerusalem about 5 years after the cross. Some put it as early as 3 and as late as 8, but he was converted about 2 years after the cross before he went away for 3 years. Paul spent 15 days with Peter. It is safe to say they talked about more than just the weather. Paul said he preached nothing but Christ crucified." Gary said about James D.G. Dunn, "In his recent book Remembering Jesus that this passage (1 Cor. 15.3ff) wasn't just taught. It was already stratified. It was already put in this creedal form within months of the crucifixion."

Gary said (see video), "I did a count recently of people who have written from about 1990 to-date [2009]. 75% of scholars today say that resurrection or 'something like it occurred.' Of that 75%, three to one say it is a bodily appearance. Ted Peters had a book that was published by Eerdmans a few years ago, and 20 out of 20 scholars in his book that he edited said 'bodily resurrection.' Higher critical scholars who are in the minority will still usually concede the appearance involved sight and was embodied."

In the summer of 2012, Gary wrote in the Southeastern Theological Review, "by beginning with a 'lowest common denominator' version of the facts. If I am correct in holding that this basis is still enough to settle the most pressing historical issues, then it is indeed a crucial contribution to the discussions. We will return below to some ramifications here. Regarding my references to the 'vast majority' or 'virtually all' scholars who agree, is it possible to identify these phrases in more precise terms? In some contexts, I have identified these expressions more specifically. At least when referencing the most important historical occurrences, I frequently think in terms of a ninety-something percentile head-count. No doubt, this is one of the reasons why the concept has gained some attention.

"My bibliography is presently at about 3400 sources and counting, published originally in French, German, or English. Initially I read and catalogued the majority of these publications, charting the representative authors, positions, topics, and so on, concentrating on both well-known and obscure writers alike, across the entire skeptical to liberal to conservative spectrum. As the number of sources grew, I moved more broadly into this research, trying to keep up with the current state of resurrection research. He said this again at William Lane Craig's "On Guard" conference, "1 Corinthians is one of six to eight books all accredited critical scholars accept. You can count the exception on two hands, probably one hand. I have 3400 sources in a bibliography from 1975 to the present (2012). When I say you can count the guys on one hand who disagree with this it is not very many. They believe Paul is the best source, and 1 Corinthians is one of the most dependable sources. They allow 1 Corinthians and Galatians. Both are on the accepted list. Bart Ehrman says they are the authentic Pauline epistle. So does most everybody else. Whatever you write, these two books are allowed [indicating Paul's genuine belief]. Paul is writing a mere [no more than] 25 years later. That is incredible. We have no other founder of a major world religion who has miracles reported of him within a generation."

"I endeavored to be more than fair to all the positions. In fact, if anything, I erred in the direction of cataloguing the most radical positions, since this was the only classification where I included even those authors who did not have specialized scholarly credentials or peer-reviewed publications. It is this group, too, that often tends to doubt or deny that Jesus ever existed. Yet, given that I counted many sources in this category, this means that my study is skewed in the skeptical direction far more than if I had stayed strictly with my requirement of citing only those with scholarly credentials. Still, I included these positions quite liberally, even when the wide majority of mainline scholars, 'liberals' included, rarely even footnoted this material. Of course, this practice would also skew the numbers who proposed naturalistic theories of the resurrection, to which I particularly gravitated.

"The result of all these years of study is a private manuscript of more than 600 pages that simply does little more than line up the scholarly positions and details on these 140 key questions....

"[Mike] Licona begins by listing my three chief Minimal Facts regarding Jesus’ fate: (1) Jesus died due to the process of crucifixion. (2) Very soon afterwards, Jesus’ disciples had experiences that they believed were appearances of the resurrected Jesus. (3) Just a few years later, Saul of Tarsus also experienced what he thought was a post-resurrection appearance of the risen Jesus."

Those aren't actual "facts". Facts can be backed up with real evidence. And all your links lead to personal opinions, not peer-reviewed scientific studies. Please try again.

These are facts as they are backed up with evidence. Only peer reviewed and accredited work by scholars are included in the list. We call this the Minimal Facts Approach because most of these scholars concede Paul really wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 and believed that the Apostles truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead.

Please point out the evidence, I see none. And I read the Minimal Facts Approach and it's not even remotely based on real facts.

The evidence was already given which you did not refute. I explained how the MFA works.

There was no proof in your post, just guys giving their opinions... Please point out one actual piece of real evidence and I will review it again.

 

[emilynghiem]

Brainwashed from birth? We were all brainwashed from birth for we were all born into sin.

Parture
yes and no. Yes we are born under sin or what others may call karma, or some even recognize as racial conditioning in our spirit.
But no, our SPIRITUAL true being is made in the image of God. the sin or bad karma from unforgiven sin is stacked on top.
So the point of renouncing karma or sin is to remove these conditions that are material
and restore the spiritual laws and being that is one with God, and this is done through Christ.

both you and sealybobo are concerned with ripping away the material conditions imposed by manmade religion.
And trying to get to the default truth that is there underneath without all that conflicting mumbo jumbo piled on top.

One way you can check if you are searching out God with all your heart and soul is to try to find a better proof than what God has provided in the NT. And you can't. That's how you know.

that may not be the best proof for an atheist or nontheist.
they may respond better to replicating the same spiritual healing that Jesus
did and showing that the process is used today to cast out demonic sickness
and heal people of diseases that can be documented by science.

I also have shown people how universal the trinity and teachings are
by pointing out the parallels in all religions all based on the same trinity.
so again this shows man is made in the image of this same God
and it is universal, it is the blueprint in every set of laws or religions
that were "made by man independently" yet all reflect the same trinity.
so clearly these universal laws underneath all point to the same source.

All I care to know about you is that you are going to Hell, because you are a universalist. No other faith agrees with Christianity. Your flesh attempts to mingle them, but God does not contradict Himself.

That's because you have taken what other people said falsely about hell and universalism
and thought that is what I mean.

I am saying that all the paths WILL lead to Christ, so Christ brings salvation.

You are saying what other people teach falsely that other things "are the same as Christ"
which is NOT what I am saying. You can't tell on this forum, just like
when you post something here it doesn't sound the same as what I read on that website.

So our perceptions and expressions are not perfect
and you are getting the wrong impression. Sorry for this.

If I did believe and was saying the false things you worry about
like saying hell is not real or hell is annihilation
or saying other religions are the same as or can replace Christ
then I woudl agree with you tha tis false.

I correct these people all the time who get this wrong.

That's not what I am saying.

Christ Jesus IS unique as central and universal to all humanity and is the fulfillment of all the
laws and paths. All things are made new in Christ.

But I don' thave to reject Buddhism or reject Constitutional principles
to teach agreement in truth in Christ. I can use these laws to communicate
just like using science, or real life parables, or whatever helps people to understand.
Any natural laws are governed by Divine Justice which Jesus represents uniquely.
So however people communicate, whether talking about the laws of
gravity, physics, cause and effect or karma, restorative or retributive justice,
Jesus as Justice and God's truth is universal regardless of the laws
man uses to express these truths found in nature.

 

[Parture]

What's written in the bible is only hearsay, as you have no proof that the Apostles witnessed anything. Someone simply wrote down several generations later what they thought the Apostles saw or said... That's as close as you can actually prove.

No scholars believe it was written down several generations later. Carbon dating disagrees with you. Most scholars consider 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 Paul's writings so that is not hearsay and written within a decade of Jesus' death. Therein we find the Apostles truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead. No naturalistic explanation can account for this