The Big Flaw in Libertarianism

[manifold]

Speaking of jury nullification, would a guilty verdict for Zimmerman effectively nullify the stand your ground law?

No

Could you maybe just s t r e t c h that out a bit?

 

[JakeStarkey]

From November 2011. Have you checked on what I have written since then.

Mostly "republicans suck, Obama is god" kind of crap. Usual Maddow bullshit...

And have you checked that with what I have written above. Better do it, or I am going to make you look even more stupid than you normally do, Uncensored.

Fakey, they only person you've ever made look stupid around here is you - and this is a prime example.

Go for it, sonny. I told you since then, some months ago, as Walker looked weakened, that if he survived, he would be more amenable to his enemies. Better look it up, Uncensored.

In fact Fakey, it is your side that will be more amenable, now that you've been utterly defeated.

My side is Republicanism. We are ignoring the nonsense from you far righties like those from the far left. You are a wack, you took my words out of context, got your rhetorical ass kicked, and now you whine? What are you: a four year old?

 

[Oddball]

My side is Republicanism. We are ignoring the nonsense from you far righties like those from the far left. You are a wack, you took my words out of context, got your rhetorical ass kicked, and now you whine? What are you: a four year old?

Dude...Nobody is buying your lies anymore.

 

[JakeStarkey]

OddBall does not realize he does not have a side: just a voice crying in the wilderness with a few other jackals.

You have no cred with folks who count. True story.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

We are ignoring the nonsense from you far righties

why be so afraid to give us your most substantive example of nonsense from the far right?

 

[JakeStarkey]

We are ignoring the nonsense from you far righties

why be so afraid to give us your most substantive example of nonsense from the far right?

Umm . . . no one is frightened of you wacks. And every time you guys or the extreme libertarians post, we get some very substantive nonsense. Many of us read you folks as if you were the funny pages of yore.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

We are ignoring the nonsense from you far righties

why be so afraid to give us your most substantive example of nonsense from the far right?

Umm . . . no one is frightened of you wacks. And every time you guys or the extreme libertarians post, we get some very substantive nonsense. Many of us read you folks as if you were the funny pages of yore.

why be so afraid to give us your most substantive example of nonsense from the far right. What does your fear tell you?

Jake, do you notice that you and Rdean change pictures the most? What does that tell you?

 

[Polk]

Why don't we just use the actual numbers instead of charts and graphs?

US Government Spending: Total, Federal, State, Local for 2012 - Charts
Federal expenditures – in billions

Last two Years of Ford
1975 - .332
1976 - .372

Carter
1977 - .409
1978 - .459
1979 - .504
1980 - .591

Reagan
1981 - .678
1982 - .746
1983 - .808
1984 - .852
1985 - .946
1986 - .990
1987 – 1.004
1988 – 1.064

George H.W. Bush
1989 – 1.144
1990 – 1.253
1991 – 1.324
1992 – 1.382

Clinton
1993 – 1.409
1994 – 1.462
1995 – 1.516
1996 – 1.506
1997 – 1.601
1998 - 1.642
1999 – 1.702
2000 – 1.8

George W. Bush
2001 – 1.9
2002 – 2.0
2003 – 2.2
2004 – 2.4
2005 – 2.7
2006 – 2.7
2008 – 3.0

Obama
2009 – 3.5
2010 – 3.5
2011 – 3.6
2012 – 3.8 (projected)

********************************
Surplus or deficit as percentage of GDP
US Federal Deficit as Percentage of GDP by Year

Note: 2008 numbers include ½ of Tarp that were in addition to budget.

The 2009 numbers include `1/2 of Tarp and the Stimulus package
that were in addition to budget plus a bloated appropriations package including multiple billions of pork included by both parties.

Date Surplus or Deficit(-) Percent
Dec 31, 2011 -8.70%
Dec 31, 2010 -9.00%
Dec 31, 2009 -10.10%

Dec 31, 2008 -3.20%
Dec 31, 2007 -1.20%
Dec 31, 2006 -1.90%
Dec 31, 2005 -2.60%
Dec 31, 2004 -3.50%
Dec 31, 2003 -3.40%
Dec 31, 2002 -1.50%
Dec 31, 2001 1.30%

Dec 31, 2000 2.40%
Dec 31, 1999 1.40%
Dec 31, 1998 0.80%
Dec 31, 1997 -0.30%
Dec 31, 1996 -1.40%
Dec 31, 1995 -2.20%
Dec 31, 1994 -2.90%
Dec 31, 1993 -3.90%

Dec 31, 1992 -4.70%
Dec 31, 1991 -4.50%
Dec 31, 1990 -3.90%
Dec 31, 1989 -2.80%

Dec 31, 1988 -3.10%
Dec 31, 1987 -3.20%
Dec 31, 1986 -5.00%
Dec 31, 1985 -5.10%
Dec 31, 1984 -4.80%
Dec 31, 1983 -6.00%
Dec 31, 1982 -4.00%
Dec 31, 1981 -2.60%

Dec 31, 1980 -2.70%
Dec 31, 1979 -1.60%
Dec 31, 1978 -2.70%
Dec 31, 1977 -2.70%

Dec 31, 1976 -4.20%
Dec 31, 1975 -3.40%

Your list sorts the tenures wrong. Obama took office in 2009, but FY 2009 started on 1 October 2008 and that's when appropriations are passed.

 

[Polk]

I'm still not sure what your beef is with the concept of jury nullification. Are you saying you don't believe jurors should be allowed to vote their conscience? Do you realize that even if a jury 'nullifies' a law with a verdict in a particular case that it doesn't actually repeal the law?

Jurors can vote their conscience by acquitting the defendant. A group of 12 unelected, unaccountable people should not be able to change the law on a whim, even when their change only applies in a single case.

What makes you thing members of juries are uneducated? What makes you think the decision to nullify a law is a whim?

I didn't say they're uneducated, I said they're unelected and unaccountable.

 

[Polk]

Speaking of jury nullification, would a guilty verdict for Zimmerman effectively nullify the stand your ground law?

No

Could you maybe just s t r e t c h that out a bit?

If you look back a few pages, I gave you a more expanded version of why.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Your list sorts the tenures wrong. Obama took office in 2009, but FY 2009 started on 1 October 2008 and that's when appropriations are passed.

You like that lie, don't you?

 

[Foxfyre]

Why don't we just use the actual numbers instead of charts and graphs?

US Government Spending: Total, Federal, State, Local for 2012 - Charts
Federal expenditures – in billions

Last two Years of Ford
1975 - .332
1976 - .372

Carter
1977 - .409
1978 - .459
1979 - .504
1980 - .591

Reagan
1981 - .678
1982 - .746
1983 - .808
1984 - .852
1985 - .946
1986 - .990
1987 – 1.004
1988 – 1.064

George H.W. Bush
1989 – 1.144
1990 – 1.253
1991 – 1.324
1992 – 1.382

Clinton
1993 – 1.409
1994 – 1.462
1995 – 1.516
1996 – 1.506
1997 – 1.601
1998 - 1.642
1999 – 1.702
2000 – 1.8

George W. Bush
2001 – 1.9
2002 – 2.0
2003 – 2.2
2004 – 2.4
2005 – 2.7
2006 – 2.7
2008 – 3.0

Obama
2009 – 3.5
2010 – 3.5
2011 – 3.6
2012 – 3.8 (projected)

********************************
Surplus or deficit as percentage of GDP
US Federal Deficit as Percentage of GDP by Year

Note: 2008 numbers include ½ of Tarp that were in addition to budget.

The 2009 numbers include `1/2 of Tarp and the Stimulus package
that were in addition to budget plus a bloated appropriations package including multiple billions of pork included by both parties.

Date Surplus or Deficit(-) Percent
Dec 31, 2011 -8.70%
Dec 31, 2010 -9.00%
Dec 31, 2009 -10.10%

Dec 31, 2008 -3.20%
Dec 31, 2007 -1.20%
Dec 31, 2006 -1.90%
Dec 31, 2005 -2.60%
Dec 31, 2004 -3.50%
Dec 31, 2003 -3.40%
Dec 31, 2002 -1.50%
Dec 31, 2001 1.30%

Dec 31, 2000 2.40%
Dec 31, 1999 1.40%
Dec 31, 1998 0.80%
Dec 31, 1997 -0.30%
Dec 31, 1996 -1.40%
Dec 31, 1995 -2.20%
Dec 31, 1994 -2.90%
Dec 31, 1993 -3.90%

Dec 31, 1992 -4.70%
Dec 31, 1991 -4.50%
Dec 31, 1990 -3.90%
Dec 31, 1989 -2.80%

Dec 31, 1988 -3.10%
Dec 31, 1987 -3.20%
Dec 31, 1986 -5.00%
Dec 31, 1985 -5.10%
Dec 31, 1984 -4.80%
Dec 31, 1983 -6.00%
Dec 31, 1982 -4.00%
Dec 31, 1981 -2.60%

Dec 31, 1980 -2.70%
Dec 31, 1979 -1.60%
Dec 31, 1978 -2.70%
Dec 31, 1977 -2.70%

Dec 31, 1976 -4.20%
Dec 31, 1975 -3.40%

Your list sorts the tenures wrong. Obama took office in 2009, but FY 2009 started on 1 October 2008 and that's when appropriations are passed.

The appropriations bills are entirely separate from the budget process. Obama had been inaugerated when the last appropriations bill of the last Bush budget was put together and passed. And despite the economic meltdown caused by the housing bubble collapse, they spent every dime remaining in the Bush budget plus some. The last half of TARP and the Stimulus Package was on top of that.

 

[JakeStarkey]

why be so afraid to give us your most substantive example of nonsense from the far right?

Umm . . . no one is frightened of you wacks. And every time you guys or the extreme libertarians post, we get some very substantive nonsense. Many of us read you folks as if you were the funny pages of yore.

why be so afraid to give us your most substantive example of nonsense from the far right. What does your fear tell you? Jake, do you notice that you and Rdean change pictures the most? What does that tell you?

You made a challenge and have been asked to support it. You haven't.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Nah, you are wrong as usual. But truth telling is not your forte. Going to vote for my man, Romney?

Jake, the reason that you're a leftist is that you're stupid. {Amelia, the objective facts are very clear. Walker pwnd himself in WI by promising and carrying out threats against the Wisconsin working man and woman. How in heaven's name did you think they would react? The used the legitimate tools of democracy to tell him and the minority with him, "No, you are not, and when we get done, you are going home for good. Not in my state you aren't."} http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-r...r-is-going-to-be-recalled-21.html#post4444153 Fakey Jake, an utter fraud and moron...

From November 2011. Have you checked on what I have written since then. And have you checked that with what I have written above. Better do it, or I am going to make you look even more stupid than you normally do, Uncensored.

Go for it, sonny. I told you since then, some months ago, as Walker looked weakened, that if he survived, he would be more amenable to his enemies. Better look it up, Uncensored.

Jake you're allowed to admit you were wrong. Admitting you're wrong has the opposite affect than what you think it does. Saying "I was wrong" shows a good quality, it's not a sign of weakness.

 

[Uncensored2008]

My side is Republicanism.

You're almost as "Republican" as Nancy Pelosi.

We are ignoring the nonsense from you far righties like those from the far left.

You are the far left, fakey.

You are a wack, you took my words out of context, got your rhetorical ass kicked,

ROFL

What a fool - I posted a quote from you, confirming exactly what you said.

You got busted again, Fakey.

and now you whine? What are you: a four year old?

You think me poking your fraudulent ass is "whining?"

ROFL

 

[Foxfyre]

My side is Republicanism.

You're almost as "Republican" as Nancy Pelosi.

We are ignoring the nonsense from you far righties like those from the far left.

You are the far left, fakey.

You are a wack, you took my words out of context, got your rhetorical ass kicked,

ROFL

What a fool - I posted a quote from you, confirming exactly what you said.

You got busted again, Fakey.

and now you whine? What are you: a four year old?

You think me poking your fraudulent ass is "whining?"

ROFL

Jakey MIGHT have a bit more credibility if he had ever expressed a modern American conservative concept or had ever denounced a modern American liberal one.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Umm . . . no one is frightened of you wacks. And every time you guys or the extreme libertarians post, we get some very substantive nonsense. Many of us read you folks as if you were the funny pages of yore.

why be so afraid to give us your most substantive example of nonsense from the far right. What does your fear tell you? Jake, do you notice that you and Rdean change pictures the most? What does that tell you?

You made a challenge and have been asked to support it. You haven't.

Third time:why be so afraid to give us your most substantive example of nonsense from the far right.

 

[JakeStarkey]

why be so afraid to give us your most substantive example of nonsense from the far right. What does your fear tell you? Jake, do you notice that you and Rdean change pictures the most? What does that tell you?

You made a challenge and have been asked to support it. You haven't.

Third time:why be so afraid to give us your most substantive example of nonsense from the far right.

You have to make your case before you can ask for rebuttal.

You are demonstrating typical libertarian fear.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Why don't we just use the actual numbers instead of charts and graphs?

US Government Spending: Total, Federal, State, Local for 2012 - Charts
Federal expenditures – in billions

Last two Years of Ford
1975 - .332
1976 - .372

Carter
1977 - .409
1978 - .459
1979 - .504
1980 - .591

Reagan
1981 - .678
1982 - .746
1983 - .808
1984 - .852
1985 - .946
1986 - .990
1987 – 1.004
1988 – 1.064

George H.W. Bush
1989 – 1.144
1990 – 1.253
1991 – 1.324
1992 – 1.382

Clinton
1993 – 1.409
1994 – 1.462
1995 – 1.516
1996 – 1.506
1997 – 1.601
1998 - 1.642
1999 – 1.702
2000 – 1.8

George W. Bush
2001 – 1.9
2002 – 2.0
2003 – 2.2
2004 – 2.4
2005 – 2.7
2006 – 2.7
2008 – 3.0

Obama
2009 – 3.5
2010 – 3.5
2011 – 3.6
2012 – 3.8 (projected)

********************************
Surplus or deficit as percentage of GDP
US Federal Deficit as Percentage of GDP by Year

Note: 2008 numbers include ½ of Tarp that were in addition to budget.

The 2009 numbers include `1/2 of Tarp and the Stimulus package
that were in addition to budget plus a bloated appropriations package including multiple billions of pork included by both parties.

Date Surplus or Deficit(-) Percent
Dec 31, 2011 -8.70%
Dec 31, 2010 -9.00%
Dec 31, 2009 -10.10%

Dec 31, 2008 -3.20%
Dec 31, 2007 -1.20%
Dec 31, 2006 -1.90%
Dec 31, 2005 -2.60%
Dec 31, 2004 -3.50%
Dec 31, 2003 -3.40%
Dec 31, 2002 -1.50%
Dec 31, 2001 1.30%

Dec 31, 2000 2.40%
Dec 31, 1999 1.40%
Dec 31, 1998 0.80%
Dec 31, 1997 -0.30%
Dec 31, 1996 -1.40%
Dec 31, 1995 -2.20%
Dec 31, 1994 -2.90%
Dec 31, 1993 -3.90%

Dec 31, 1992 -4.70%
Dec 31, 1991 -4.50%
Dec 31, 1990 -3.90%
Dec 31, 1989 -2.80%

Dec 31, 1988 -3.10%
Dec 31, 1987 -3.20%
Dec 31, 1986 -5.00%
Dec 31, 1985 -5.10%
Dec 31, 1984 -4.80%
Dec 31, 1983 -6.00%
Dec 31, 1982 -4.00%
Dec 31, 1981 -2.60%

Dec 31, 1980 -2.70%
Dec 31, 1979 -1.60%
Dec 31, 1978 -2.70%
Dec 31, 1977 -2.70%

Dec 31, 1976 -4.20%
Dec 31, 1975 -3.40%

I think the essential point is that if we had a BBA such that taxes and spending had to match it would in effect make liberalism illegal.

and that if the market was not self-correcting we could hire soviet bureaucrats to do a better job

 

[JakeStarkey]

Lowry of the National Review answered why we should not have a BBA.

JULY 19, 2011 12:00 A.M. Against the Balanced-Budget Amendment It probably wouldn’t work, and if it did, it would be even worse.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/272154/against-balanced-budget-amendment-rich-lowry